Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 We are supposed to be compassionate to the degree that we should not even kill insect pests. How about Gods natural disasters? How come He is not compassionate? If it is all a play, a game, an illusion then why should it matter if we are compassionate or murderers? ________________________________ Love makes the heart laugh. I wish you Love. CyberDervish `````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 For many years I went through all kinds of hell not being able to do the vegetarian diet after taking vows from 5 different masters. Then I read "I AM THAT" and got new hope that I could be realized even though, because of my thin body, I could not be a vegetarian. It did not seem to matter that Nisaragadatta eat flesh. , CyberDervish <swork@a...> wrote: > We are supposed to be compassionate to the degree that we should not even > kill insect pests. How about Gods natural disasters? How come He is not > compassionate? > > If it is all a play, a game, an illusion then why should it matter if we > are compassionate or murderers? > > ________________________________ > Love makes the heart laugh. > I wish you Love. > CyberDervish > `````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 On 6/4/01 at 8:20 AM CyberDervish wrote: ºWe are supposed to be compassionate to the degree that we should not even ºkill insect pests. And who says so? Wouldn't it be compassionate not to cause insect pests? How about Gods natural disasters? How come He is not ºcompassionate? What if compassion is but a treat of certain mammals? Zebras don't know compassion... º ºIf it is all a play, a game, an illusion then why should it matter if we ºare compassionate or murderers? Wouldn't it be wise to discover first, whether or not it is all a play? And wouldn't that be a "guarantee" one can live 'in peace' with the outcome? Or despite the outcome? Joy and Light, Jan º º________________________________ ºLove makes the heart laugh. ºI wish you Love. ºCyberDervish º`````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 >C.D.: We are supposed to be compassionate to the degree that we should not even kill insect pests. D: Human "supposed to's" are only as real as human beliefs, and even these are only as real as a given culture and setting. Which "supposed to's" does a mosquito follow (perhaps, "I am supposed to say a prayer to the great warm and compassionate God named 'Blood' before inserting my probiscus") ? How about Gods natural disasters? How come He is not compassionate? By whose rules and "supposed to's" ? Yours, mine, or the mosquito's? Who gets to define "God"? If it is all a play, a game, an illusion then why should it matter if we are compassionate or murderers? Why should you be asking about "shoulds"? _______________________________ Love makes the heart laugh. I wish you Love. CyberDervish Laughter makes the heart light. I wish you Laughter. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 For many years I went through all kinds of hell not being able to do the vegetarian diet after taking vows from 5 different masters. Then I read "I AM THAT" and got new hope that I could be realized even though, because of my thin body, I could not be a vegetarian. It did not seem to matter that Nisaragadatta eat flesh. What good is hope for the future *right now*? The idea of realiation occurring in the future is only a division made by thought *right now*. The idea of realization occurring to "someone else" whom I hope to be like someday, is only further division being made *right now*. What is the undivided now? If you know this, questions about whether a lion eating meat or a lamb eating grass can become realized, or whether a stone that eats nothing is enlightened or unenlightened, will no longer matter ... Namaste, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 - CyberDervish Monday, June 04, 2001 1:20 AM Compassion - double standards? We are supposed to be compassionate to the degree that we should not even kill insect pests. How about Gods natural disasters? How come He is not compassionate? If you consider natural disasters to be events like volcanos, bad weather events such as hurricanes etc, or even diseases.. there is a presumption on your part that this is all a design flaw which might have been avoided somehow. But how? Do you presume to know a better way? Do you actually think this is true and just how would you get around them? Nature shows us predominately nothing so much as eating, sex, and death, the main themes of biological existence. There is a presumption that with humans, something "more than" mere biological survival enters the picture. Just what that is, is the the subject of all the spiritual discussion. If it is all a play, a game, an illusion then why should it matter if we are compassionate or murderers? Regardless of the reason, to whom does it matter? Is "what you really are" of concern only to you? When this is known, will this same question arise? Love, Gloria ________________________________Love makes the heart laugh.I wish you Love.CyberDervish``````````````````````````````````````````````/join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 , "COMO KASHA" <lostnfoundation> wrote: > For many years I went through all kinds of hell not being able to do > the vegetarian diet after taking vows from 5 different masters. > Then I read "I AM THAT" and got new hope that I could be realized > even though, because of my thin body, I could not be a vegetarian. > It did not seem to matter that Nisaragadatta eat flesh. Namaste Como, Maharaj was a realised master presumably, so what he ate didn't matter, God can do any dream. As for us we need to purify, and learn ahimsa. I am not thin, so even if you have a skinny body, you still don't need to eat meat, that is the flesh off the corpses of dead and animals......ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 , Daniel Berkow <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > >For many years I went through all kinds of hell not being able to do > >the vegetarian diet after taking vows from 5 different masters. > >Then I read "I AM THAT" and got new hope that I could be realized > >even though, because of my thin body, I could not be a vegetarian. > >It did not seem to matter that Nisaragadatta eat flesh. > > What good is hope for the future *right now*? > > The idea of realiation occurring in the future > is only a division made by thought *right now*. > > The idea of realization occurring to "someone else" > whom I hope to be like someday, is only further > division being made *right now*. > > What is the undivided now? > > If you know this, questions about > whether a lion eating meat > or a lamb eating grass can become > realized, or whether a stone that > eats nothing is enlightened or unenlightened, > will no longer matter ... > > Namaste, > Dan Namaste Dan, To cut through all the intellectual dualism and non dualisma and even pollyana veges. We do not know who we are for our samskaras hinder us. Saying a wall isn't there and then running into it is somewhat of a hindrance. So the reasons for vegetarianism are that it is a help in cleaning or purifying ones's illusory body/mind so we may realise 'Who am I?'. It has the effect of compassion for animals instead of greed and satisfying an ego desire at the expense of animal suffering. Compassion is a necessary virture for most of us. Again it has to do with our level of awareness, if the vijnanamayakosa isn't developed no amount of talk of vegetarianism will help. For the lower mind and ego will find reasons to rationalise and eat flesh. The result will be a brilliant intellectual non dual mind taking incarnation after incarnation. For the animal vibrations are also ingested into the body and mind of the flesh eater. As Ramana said it is necesary, especially for beginners, which we all are, brilliance is only in the mind, what is that? Saying something is cultural is like saying 'I can never think for myself'. Om Namah Sivaya...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 Hi Tony! Namaste Dan, To cut through all the intellectual dualism and non dualisma and even pollyana veges. Ah, the omniverous sword of discrimination is raised! We do not know who we are for our samskaras hinder us. We do not know who we are when we take ourselves to be a something, some kind of tangible or knowable object. If we do not attempt to know and have ourselves as an object, samskaras become evident as tendencies to believe ourselves, others, and the world to have objective existence as agencies and things. Saying a wall isn't there and then running into it is somewhat of a hindrance. Believing there is a wall when there isn't a wall is very much a hindrance. So the reasons for vegetarianism are that it is a help in cleaning or purifying ones's illusory body/mind so we may realise 'Who am I?'. It has the effect of compassion for animals instead of greed and satisfying an ego desire at the expense of animal suffering. If I take away the illusory being objectifying itself in converstation as "Tony", and the illusory effects of the samskara "trying to be right" -- and all of "Tony's" definitions of "greed" and "compassion" (which a hen might agree with, but a tiger might not) what is left? Just "what is" -- only "this" If the sword of discrimination removes "Tony" trying to "correct what he views as wrong (animals suffering)" -- what is left? "Nature" -- "being as is" -- in which sufferings of animals as a result of attacks by driver ants, forest fires, or starvation are commonplace. Nature -- which is who human beings are when not trying to escape through ideas and ideals of "being superior" ... which tendencies seem to weigh heavy on vegetarian and meat-eating humans alike ;-) Compassion is a necessary virture for most of us. If it's necessary, why only for most of us? If it's cultural and situational, how can you prescribe it for others? Again it has to do with our level of awareness, if the vijnanamayakosa isn't developed no amount of talk of vegetarianism will help. For the lower mind and ego will find reasons to rationalise and eat flesh. You've repeated this opinionated absolutistic stuff often, Tony. Who are you trying to convince of the absolute truth of this repeatedly stated position? Is the repetition for the sake of deluded meat-eaters who just don't "get it"? What samskara is it in the (unreal) "mind of Tony" that repeatedly arises as attacks against meat-eaters? Aren't these meat-eating beings illusory, according to many of your previous posts? Aside from "Tony's" prejudices, where is there a higher and lower in nature? Is a hen higher than a tiger? Is a calm quiet day higher than a raging forest fire? Is the "death" of a star low, because it subsequently deprives its planets of any warmth or light (which will happen to our sun eventually, ending all so-called "life" of protoplasm in our solar system)? If "Tony" dropped all thoughts about "highs" and "lows" of "minds" which do things, of "suffering" which is wrong or right -- what would be left? Just nature, just reality undivided, just this ... Unsplit undivided truth -- not intellectualism, not trying to be right -- just what is, as is ... The result will be a brilliant intellectual non dual mind taking incarnation after incarnation. For the animal vibrations are also ingested into the body and mind of the flesh eater. Tony, this again comes across to me as Tony's belief expressed as absolute truth. Where does "a mind" begin or end? Do tigers have minds? How about hens? How about atoms? How about space? What makes you so sure of these opinions? Have you seen a mind incarnate? How big was it? Of what was it made? Where did it originate from? How did it maintain its being? How was it inserted into an incarnation? Your statement indicates that animal vibrations are somehow bad, and I must assume that you think that vegetable vibrations are better. Again -- "Tony's" beliefs about higher and lower. Please note: An animal is a vegetable in another form of appearance. An animal is a way that vegetables are consumed and changed into another appearance. Vegetables are ways that light, water and minerals are changed to another form of appearance. The vibration is the same, infinite -- the appearances differ. As Ramana said it is necesary, especially for beginners, which we all are, brilliance is only in the mind, what is that? And where is that? And what incarnates? Saying something is cultural is like saying 'I can never think for myself'. No, it's like noticing the effects of culture, language, and indoctrination into belief-systems. And Tony -- who is the self which independently generates original thoughts? Where does it exist and do this generation of new thoughts? You said your philosophy is inquiry into "Who am I?" Well -- is there an independently existing thinker of thoughts?? Om Namah Sivaya...Tony. Om alone! Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 Dear CyberDervish, (I don't know your first name yet.) You wrote: > We are supposed to be compassionate to the degree that we should not even > kill insect pests. How about Gods natural disasters? How come He is not > compassionate? Just a general short remark on compassion.... Compassion has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with death in any form or meaning. Period. Over and out... Any discussion on that is a waste of time and deviates from the real issue which is: Compassion has everything to do with human suffering, the human plight. Compassion has everything to do with the de-natured human. Compassion has everything to do with the remembering..., the memory, re-cognition, re-discovery and restoration of the divine in us human beings. Compassion resets us humans to our original human / divinity. > If it is all a play, a game, an illusion then why should it matter if we > are compassionate or murderers? Life divine is human divine play (leela) not illusion, life divine is reality. If you forgot what that was... a child playing in peace and harmony is the closest example to help you remember... take it from there... All suffering starts with the initial disturbance of this play in the child... Love, Wim Compassion is the instrument which recovers our divine humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 , Daniel Berkow <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > >As Ramana said it is necesary, especially for beginners, which we all > >are, brilliance is only in the mind, what is that? > > And where is that? > > And what incarnates? > > > >Saying something is cultural is like saying 'I can never think for > >myself'. > > No, it's like noticing the effects of culture, language, and indoctrination > into belief-systems. > > And Tony -- who is the self which independently generates original thoughts? > Where does it exist and do this generation of new thoughts? > > You said your philosophy is inquiry into "Who am I?" > > Well -- is there an independently existing thinker of thoughts?? > > >Om Namah Sivaya...Tony. > > Om alone! > > Dan Namaste Dan, All I can really say is to repeat this: --->Again it has to do > >with our level of awareness, if the vijnanamayakosa isn't developed no > >amount of talk of vegetarianism will help. For the lower mind and ego > >will find reasons to rationalise and eat flesh.< Intellectualising is really ducking the point. Absolutely there is only nirguna yes but as sankara said it is real while we are in it! If you eat poison you will die, no intellectualising will avoid that. I'm not on a crusade, I never mention this stuff to people who are not on the path so to speak. I'm repeating really the words and advice of Ramana and the Buddha......ONS......Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 Hi Tony! All I can really say is to repeat this: Why rehash what was just said, Tony? I'd rather allow what isn't old and isn't memory to reveal itself -- "the eternal now-moment" ... Intellectualising is really ducking the point. Yes, and questioning the process of identifying with beliefs isn't intellectualization, but rather is self-confrontation, self-inquiry. Absolutely there is only nirguna yes but as sankara said it is real while we are in it! Are you in it? If so, what can you do about it? Are you out of it? If so, how are you going to share it? If you eat poison you will die, no intellectualising will avoid that. Death is inevitable for "you" as long as "you" is identified as a sack of protoplasm that depends on food-intake for survival. If vegetables alone ensured that the sack of protoplasm never ceased, there would be very few eating meat - and vice versa (unfortunate, but true -- people are more addicted to the idea of continuing personal survival than they are to either meat or vegetables). But, regardless, the protoplasmic entity is born to expire. What is deathless, your true being, never was born. Intellectual poison is circulated when rote beliefs are repeated unquestioningly. If one continues to eat a diet of self-repeating beliefs, open exploration of/as "what is" will die, and no dietary restrictions will avoid that. I'm not on a crusade, I never mention this stuff to people who are not on the path so to speak. I'm repeating really the words and advice of Ramana and the Buddha......ONS......Tony. Yes, certainly, you're free to repeat your advice. Perhaps repeating that advice is of value in some way that I haven't as yet understood. What I do value are the questions you raise, far more than the advice you dispense. But, to each, his or her own ... ;-) Namaste, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 , Daniel Berkow <ber> Dan Namaste Dan, Dan wrote:>Perhaps repeating that advice is of value > in some way that I haven't as yet understood.< Hahahahaha that's it clean your awareness sheath. Glo has a surreal laundry I believe. Then you will appreciate what I am saying, by acting....ONS....Tony. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 At 09:10 PM 6/4/01 +0000, you wrote: , Daniel Berkow <ber> Dan Namaste Dan, Dan wrote:>Perhaps repeating that advice is of value > in some way that I haven't as yet understood.< Hahahahaha that's it clean your awareness sheath. Glo has a surreal laundry I believe. Then you will appreciate what I am saying, by acting....ONS....Tony. Oh, but I do, I do, ahhhh ... dooo.... Appreciate youuuuuu .... ;-) -- D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 At 04.06.01-11:57 PM, you wrote: >Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:53:13 -0700 > "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere >Re: Compassion - double standards? > >Dear CyberDervish, (I don't know your first name yet.) Sorry about that, my first name is Jan. _____________________________ Love makes the heart laugh. I wish you Love. CyberDervish `````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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