Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 In a message dated 06/06/2001 7:46:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, swork writes: << But possibly there is something significant here? >> Yes...there is.... Norma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 Enlightenment an involuntary action? Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac, try to urinate or defecate consciously and again you will fail. This is because all these are involuntary actions. They just happen when the conditions are right. Perhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening. Make the conditions right for it to occur, but get out of the way before it can happen. [Just like reading a magazine in the toilet to take your mind off the act - getting yourself out of the way!] Like walking, or driving/racing or playing sports ... If you do it consciously the results are mediocre. However if you get into the rhythm, into the 'zone', you do wonders. Crudely put, I know. But possibly there is something significant here? ________________________________ Love makes the heart laugh. I wish you Love. CyberDervish `````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 Dear Jan, Oh YES! YES! YES! Sports is a quite the exact metaphor too. If you would read Herrigel's little book on Zen in the Art of Archery, archery was taught as a way of turning off the mind in order to shoot without conscious thought interfering. Every creative artist learns how when he is not present, the poetry writes itself, the music composes itself, the painting paints itself. CyberDervish is cool, but I like you having a regular, plain name too. Somehow Jan is more "you". Love, Gloria - Jan Sultan Wednesday, June 06, 2001 9:46 AM Enlightenment an involuntary action? Enlightenment an involuntary action?Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac, try to urinate or defecate consciously and again you will fail. This is because all these are involuntary actions. They just happen when the conditions are right.Perhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening. Make the conditions right for it to occur, but get out of the way before it can happen. [Just like reading a magazine in the toilet to take your mind off the act - getting yourself out of the way!]Like walking, or driving/racing or playing sports ... If you do it consciously the results are mediocre. However if you get into the rhythm, into the 'zone', you do wonders.Crudely put, I know. But possibly there is something significant here?________________________________Love makes the heart laugh.I wish you Love.CyberDervish``````````````````````````````````````````````/join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 Dear Jan, You wrote: > Perhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening. Yes, when one is free from the usual will, the involuntary will re-emerges, when one is free of the usual mind, the mindless mind re-emerges, one is clear of mind and free of will also one is free of will and clear of mind Free will and a clear mind are reciprocally and commutatively involved with eachother... Imagine a coin, forget the two sides... 'Free will and clear mind' radiate from the core of that coin. 'Free will and clear mind' are the same organ so to say. How can one have a free will if the mind is not clear? How can one have a clear mind if the will is not free? That 'mind-will organ' is postioned around the navel... When we say, "gut feeling" we are pretty close... Too bad that for most people gut feelings point to danger... but... that stands to reason as danger really infringes one's 'free-will-clear-mind'. 'Usual will' and 'usual mind' are someone else's will and someone else's mind... They are social utilities. 'Usual will' and 'usual mind' are instruments of social behavior. There is nothing individual to the 'usual will' and the 'usual mind' ,they are always checked against social templates of conformity > Make the conditions right for it to occur, Yes, that is brought about by undoing all the human conditioning that de-natures the human... Usual will and usual mind are the instruments of social conditioning. > Crudely put, I know. But possibly there is something significant here? Oh yes, Love, Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 yep!.....^^~~~~~~ - Gloria Lee ; NDS Wednesday, June 06, 2001 9:27 AM Re: Enlightenment an involuntary action? Dear Jan, Oh YES! YES! YES! Sports is a quite the exact metaphor too. If you would read Herrigel's little book on Zen in the Art of Archery, archery was taught as a way of turning off the mind in order to shoot without conscious thought interfering. Every creative artist learns how when he is not present, the poetry writes itself, the music composes itself, the painting paints itself. CyberDervish is cool, but I like you having a regular, plain name too. Somehow Jan is more "you". Love, Gloria - Jan Sultan Wednesday, June 06, 2001 9:46 AM Enlightenment an involuntary action? Enlightenment an involuntary action?Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac, try to urinate or defecate consciously and again you will fail. This is because all these are involuntary actions. They just happen when the conditions are right.Perhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening. Make the conditions right for it to occur, but get out of the way before it can happen. [Just like reading a magazine in the toilet to take your mind off the act - getting yourself out of the way!]Like walking, or driving/racing or playing sports ... If you do it consciously the results are mediocre. However if you get into the rhythm, into the 'zone', you do wonders.Crudely put, I know. But possibly there is something significant here?________________________________Love makes the heart laugh.I wish you Love.CyberDervish``````````````````````````````````````````````/join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 , Jan Sultan <swork@a...> wrote: > Enlightenment an involuntary action? > > Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac, try to > urinate or defecate consciously and again you will fail. This is because > all these are involuntary actions. They just happen when the conditions are > right. > Perhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening. Make the > conditions right for it to occur, but get out of the way before it can > happen. [Just like reading a magazine in the toilet to take your mind off > the act - getting yourself out of the way!] > > Like walking, or driving/racing or playing sports ... If you do it > consciously the results are mediocre. However if you get into the rhythm, > into the 'zone', you do wonders. > > Crudely put, I know. But possibly there is something significant here? > > ________________________________ > Love makes the heart laugh. > I wish you Love. > CyberDervish > ```````````````` Namaste All, In my experience, leaving the body consciously is not that hard. Deliberately meditating is the same thing. Sleep is a swoon and one can get to the moment of swoon consciously. However it depends on what is meant by 'sleep'. Deep sleep is not knowing, and there is dream sleep on the astral dream plane. Swoon happens when we move to the deep sleep state quickly, however there is the hynogogic dream reverie state prior to this. One can move to the astral and mental consciously. So there is a point on enlightenment, however it is not swoon IMO but an awakening into true consciousness. A total lack of all effort. ONS....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 "Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac," This is not true for me. I do it every day once or twice. Here is my method. I use ear plugs and a blindfold. When I get into a comfortable position I vow not to move. I hold the "I" thought and put my concentration into the darkness. If something distracts me, I tell myself, it is ok not to fall asleep this time. It works, try it. , Jan Sultan <swork@a...> wrote: > Enlightenment an involuntary action? > > Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac, try to > urinate or defecate consciously and again you will fail. This is because > all these are involuntary actions. They just happen when the conditions are > right. > Perhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening. Make the > conditions right for it to occur, but get out of the way before it can > happen. [Just like reading a magazine in the toilet to take your mind off > the act - getting yourself out of the way!] > > Like walking, or driving/racing or playing sports ... If you do it > consciously the results are mediocre. However if you get into the rhythm, > into the 'zone', you do wonders. > > Crudely put, I know. But possibly there is something significant here? > > ________________________________ > Love makes the heart laugh. > I wish you Love. > CyberDervish > `````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 On 6/6/01 at 4:46 PM Jan Sultan wrote: ºEnlightenment an involuntary action? Irrelevant question. º ºTry to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac, try to ºurinate or defecate consciously and again you will fail. This is because ºall these are involuntary actions. They just happen when the conditions ºare ºright. That is quite an impressive list of "ignorant of how the mind-body works". A male dog for instance, can urinate effortless if it smells 'good'. ºPerhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening. Make the ºconditions right for it to occur, but get out of the way before it can ºhappen. [Just like reading a magazine in the toilet to take your mind off ºthe act - getting yourself out of the way!] That is what it seems for the ignorant - as a rule one isn't aware of conditioning falling apart. That is all that happens and yet hardly anyone does notice... But it opens the door to another interpretation <s> º ºLike walking, or driving/racing or playing sports ... If you do it ºconsciously the results are mediocre. However if you get into the rhythm, ºinto the 'zone', you do wonders. That is what that seems: the ignorants have to relax first, and that won't happen by a frenzy of thoughts - whatever the subject. The '"pro's" in sports are single-minded but empty-minded is 'better'. º ºCrudely put, I know. But possibly there is something significant here? Not at all... Joy and Light, Jan º º________________________________ ºLove makes the heart laugh. ºI wish you Love. ºCyberDervish º`````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 Hi Jan, >Enlightenment an involuntary action? > >Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac, try to >urinate or defecate consciously and again you will fail. This is because >all these are involuntary actions. They just happen when the conditions are >right. >Perhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening. Make the >conditions right for it to occur, but get out of the way before it can >happen. Jamgon Kongtrul says this is the slower but safer way... and best for most people. Keep on with your practice... work at it every day... and pray for grace. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 Hi Alton, >"Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac," > >This is not true for me. I do it every day once or twice. >Here is my method. I use ear plugs and a blindfold. When I get into a >comfortable position I vow not to move. I hold the "I" thought and >put my concentration into the darkness. If something distracts me, I >tell myself, it is ok not to fall asleep this time. It works, try it. I agree. When I was in college, if I was tired and had a little time before dinner, I would tell my room-mate to wake me up in five minutes... and lie down and take off. When she woke me up, it was as if I'd had a long nap. I learned a method of physical relaxation in high school and another one first semester in college. With some practice, it becomes easy to do it very quickly, either for meditation or for sleep. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 After I posted yesterday that I can fall asleep at will,I was unable to do it. Did my ego get in the way and am I now an insomniac? I sleept poorly last night only less than 2 hours, but I think it was going to happen and had nothing to do with my ego. We shall see. Love you Love us, Alton , Dharma <deva@L...> wrote: > Hi Alton, > > >"Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an insomniac," > > > >This is not true for me. I do it every day once or twice. > >Here is my method. I use ear plugs and a blindfold. When I get into a > >comfortable position I vow not to move. I hold the "I" thought and > >put my concentration into the darkness. If something distracts me, I > >tell myself, it is ok not to fall asleep this time. It works, try it. > > I agree. When I was in college, if I was tired and had a little time > before dinner, I would tell my room-mate to wake me up in five minutes... > and lie down and take off. When she woke me up, it was as if I'd had a > long nap. > > I learned a method of physical relaxation in high school and another one > first semester in college. With some practice, it becomes easy to do it > very quickly, either for meditation or for sleep. > > Love, > Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 On 6/7/01 at 3:05 PM COMO KASHA wrote: ºAfter I posted yesterday that I can fall asleep at will,I was unable ºto do it. Did my ego get in the way and am I now an insomniac? ºI sleept poorly last night only less than 2 hours, but I think it was ºgoing to happen and had nothing to do with my ego. We shall see. º ºLove you Love us, ºAlton These days, I take a hike in the mountains and after a small meal and some rest, take a long evening walk along the beach. Something that forces sleep all by itself! And apart from that, the mind-body stays in good condition too... And sometimes, an opportunity for a great pic.. Why not try something similar? Love, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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