Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 Yes! The Beloved is laughing, is laughter, is beyond! Is howling through WhiteWolfe! I come to destroy all graven images, particularly the image you engraved on your heart when you said "I know myself as an existing being" ... And yes, when you engraved that on your heart, you were forced to come up with a God in your own image (money, pleasure, status, the God of the Old or New Testament, your Guru, your 'religious experiences' that are so wonderful, etc., etc.) If you see meet an image on the road, kill it! If the road is an image, dissolve it! If dissolving images becomes an image, howl! What else can a poor boy do? Peace! Dan White Wolfe wrote: dear brothers and sisters.... .....i am a former student of mystical theology...i have read many but not all of the recent posts discussing various theological point of view....read many beautiful and eloquent statements....ultimately.....almost all theological debate is a result of a lack of awareness that language and words are mere symbols or shadows of reality.....to say that Christ is the Way is evocative to one who lives inside Christian tradition....to a Chinese peasant it is nothing but gibberish....words mean to each of us is something slightly different.....words are mental constructs pointing at reality.....for me Christ is nothingness....a word that means something like non-dual notions of reality cannot be contained in words.....Jesus the Christ....is a phrase that refers to the Crucifix....an image that resonants the infinite compassion of the sacred heart of the noble warrior in each of us.....yet, it is not that, it something more....it is the icon that reminds us that the distinction between the sacred and the profane, the redeemed and the unredeemed is a false one created by language....the divine manifests itself in the material world endlessly and without effort......love is always arising....contemplative prayer brings us into direct contact with reality as it is.....it is the golden hammer that beats form (mental constructs) into nothingness.....it brings us into union with reality so that ultimately we arrive at a place where there is nothing to say except.....i am in the beloved and the beloved is in me....i am infinite compassion...or as my spiritual ancestor St. Ignatius says...."I come from nothing. I am nothing. I return to nothing."...or even better as our Nisaragadata says....I am That.....it is the realization that Buddhists talk about when we use the word inter-being....am i my brother's keeper?....of course, my brother and i are one....would i condemn myself to hell for holding a false belief and not understanding myself as i am?.....then, why would i condemn another whom i do not understand realizing that i do not even understand myself....there are none lost in reality....neither pagan or christian.....go sit and practice....go contemplate...."all manner of things are well" (Dame Julien).....it is not God who made man in his likeness....it is man who made God in his likeness....Jesus came to radically destroy the mental concept of the God of the Old Testament.....Jesus as my Lord and Master calls me to continuously destroy all mental constructs that arise with the sword of charity.....another of his wonderful names is Manjuri, the bodhissavta who comes to us carrying the sword of compassion to slay all our false mental concepts of what is and what is not and that divide us one from another.....love is our center....all else in nothing but love weaving the yarn of reality into endlessly new and wonderful blossoming flowers.....Awake!...leave dead mental contructs to the dead....'let the dead bury the dead'......we are alive.....we are love....i hear the Beloved laughing, do you?.......^^~~~~~ further up and further in, white wolfe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 Dan, I think it goes... If you see meet an image on the toad, kill it! Might annoy Tony, tho.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 , "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: > Dan, I think it goes... > > If you see meet an image on the toad, > kill it! > > Might annoy Tony, tho.... > > J. Namaste J, Not bothered, thoughts are things, the karmas is yours....ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 you have the words,dansan, dansan. the word have you....WOW AND DOUBLE WOW!....^^~~~~~ namaste, white wolfe Re: theological distinctions Yes!The Beloved is laughing, is laughter, is beyond!Is howling through WhiteWolfe!I come to destroy all graven images, particularly the image you engraved on your heart when you said "I know myself as an existing being" ...And yes, when you engraved that on your heart, you were forced to come up with a God in your own image (money, pleasure, status, the God of the Old or New Testament, your Guru, your 'religious experiences' that are so wonderful, etc., etc.)If you see meet an image on the road, kill it!If the road is an image, dissolve it!If dissolving images becomes an image, howl! What else can a poor boy do?Peace!Dan White Wolfe wrote: dear brothers and sisters.... .....i am a former student of mystical theology...i have read many but not all of the recent posts discussing various theological point of view....read many beautiful and eloquent statements....ultimately.....almost all theological debate is a result of a lack of awareness that language and words are mere symbols or shadows of reality.....to say that Christ is the Way is evocative to one who lives inside Christian tradition....to a Chinese peasant it is nothing but gibberish....words mean to each of us is something slightly different.....words are mental constructs pointing at reality.....for me Christ is nothingness....a word that means something like non-dual notions of reality cannot be contained in words.....Jesus the Christ....is a phrase that refers to the Crucifix....an image that resonants the infinite compassion of the sacred heart of the noble warrior in each of us.....yet, it is not that, it something more....it is the icon that reminds us that the distinction between the sacred and the profane, the redeemed and the unredeemed is a false one created by language....the divine manifests itself in the material world endlessly and without effort......love is always arising....contemplative prayer brings us into direct contact with reality as it is.....it is the golden hammer that beats form (mental constructs) into nothingness.....it brings us into union with reality so that ultimately we arrive at a place where there is nothing to say except.....i am in the beloved and the beloved is in me....i am infinite compassion...or as my spiritual ancestor St. Ignatius says...."I come from nothing. I am nothing. I return to nothing."...or even better as our Nisaragadata says....I am That.....it is the realization that Buddhists talk about when we use the word inter-being....am i my brother's keeper?....of course, my brother and i are one....would i condemn myself to hell for holding a false belief and not understanding myself as i am?.....then, why would i condemn another whom i do not understand realizing that i do not even understand myself....there are none lost in reality....neither pagan or christian.....go sit and practice....go contemplate...."all manner of things are well" (Dame Julien).....it is not God who made man in his likeness....it is man who made God in his likeness....Jesus came to radically destroy the mental concept of the God of the Old Testament.....Jesus as my Lord and Master calls me to continuously destroy all mental constructs that arise with the sword of charity.....another of his wonderful names is Manjuri, the bodhissavta who comes to us carrying the sword of compassion to slay all our false mental concepts of what is and what is not and that divide us one from another.....love is our center....all else in nothing but love weaving the yarn of reality into endlessly new and wonderful blossoming flowers.....Awake!...leave dead mental contructs to the dead....'let the dead bury the dead'......we are alive.....we are love....i hear the Beloved laughing, do you?.......^^~~~~~ further up and further in, white wolfe /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 lol...did you hear me...LOL....DID YOU HERE ME YET ROFLOL!....i here the beloved laughing.....^^~~~~~~ - Joyce Short Thursday, June 07, 2001 8:19 AM Re: theological distinctions Dan, I think it goes...If you see meet an image on the toad, kill it!Might annoy Tony, tho....J./join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 poor tony....wimmetje where are you....where are you dansan...tony is still deaf.....we need a miracle here on the order of what Jesus could do......oh right, i forgot....we already have a MIRAcle among us.....and still he cannot hear......maybe it is we who are deaf.....do ya think. ja, ja...!?!...or maybe it is truly a mira(tonyO)CLE(ary).....the first one who cannot be healed by endless love.....white wolfe - Tony O'Clery <aoclery <> Thursday, June 07, 2001 8:45 AM Re: theological distinctions > , "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: > > Dan, I think it goes... > > > > If you see meet an image on the toad, > > kill it! > > > > Might annoy Tony, tho.... > > > > J. > > Namaste J, > > Not bothered, thoughts are things, the karmas is yours....ONS..Tony. > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 Joyce, I think it goes ... If you there's an image of meat in your abode, fill it! If you meet an image of a toad on the commode, flush it! If you annoyed an image called and his code, decode him! D. Dan, I think it goes... If you see meet an image on the toad, kill it! Might annoy Tony, tho.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 On 6/7/01 at 3:45 PM Tony O'Clery wrote: º, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: º> Dan, I think it goes... º> º> If you see meet an image on the toad, º> kill it! º> º> Might annoy Tony, tho.... º> º> J. º ºNamaste J, º ºNot bothered, thoughts are things, the karmas is yours....ONS..Tony. Well, in many parts of the world, transportation is by car... And cars are killers of many creatures, who didn't ask for a roadkill... Even when buying vegetarian stuff, it is likely to have been transported... Roadkill, not your karma? Joy and Light, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 , "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: > On 6/7/01 at 3:45 PM Tony O'Clery wrote: > > º, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: > º> Dan, I think it goes... > º> > º> If you see meet an image on the toad, > º> kill it! > º> > º> Might annoy Tony, tho.... > º> > º> J. > º > ºNamaste J, > º > ºNot bothered, thoughts are things, the karmas is yours....ONS..Tony. > > Well, in many parts of the world, transportation is by car... > And cars are killers of many creatures, who didn't ask > for a roadkill... Even when buying vegetarian stuff, it is > likely to have been transported... Roadkill, not your karma? > > Joy and Light, > Jan Namaste J, There is no will or intent in accident, therefore no ownership of the karmic retribution. I don't eat roadkill as some do I believe. To me there is no difference between an animal and a human. So for example the Nazi Holocaust and the present Abbatoir Holocaust is one and the same, or even the fishing kills. (There are deaths with every breath and are unavoidable but no intent, we have to do the best we can.).However there is intent and ownership of the karma even if in fact no free will is really involved. Ah another door.....ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 23:45:55 -0000 "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery writes: > , "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: > > On 6/7/01 at 3:45 PM Tony O'Clery wrote: > > > > º, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: > > º> Dan, I think it goes... > > º> > > º> If you see meet an image on the toad, > > º> kill it! > > º> > > º> Might annoy Tony, tho.... > > º> > > º> J. > > º > > ºNamaste J, > > º > > ºNot bothered, thoughts are things, the karmas is > yours....ONS..Tony. > > > > Well, in many parts of the world, transportation is by car... > > And cars are killers of many creatures, who didn't ask > > for a roadkill... Even when buying vegetarian stuff, it is > > likely to have been transported... Roadkill, not your karma? > > > > Joy and Light, > > Jan > > Namaste J, > > There is no will or intent in accident, therefore no ownership of > the > karmic retribution. I don't eat roadkill as some do I believe. To me > > there is no difference between an animal and a human. So for example > > the Nazi Holocaust and the present Abbatoir Holocaust is one and the > > same, or even the fishing kills. (There are deaths with every breath > > and are unavoidable but no intent, we have to do the best we > can.).However there is intent and ownership > of the karma even if in fact no free will is really involved. Ah > another door.....ONS...> Death of the body is inevitable, is a death that feeds bacteria better karmicly than death that feeds a hungry, innocent child? http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 On 6/7/01 at 11:45 PM Tony O'Clery wrote: º, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: º> On 6/7/01 at 3:45 PM Tony O'Clery wrote: º> º> º, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: º> º> Dan, I think it goes... º> º> º> º> If you see meet an image on the toad, º> º> kill it! º> º> º> º> Might annoy Tony, tho.... º> º> º> º> J. º> º º> ºNamaste J, º> º º> ºNot bothered, thoughts are things, the karmas is ºyours....ONS..Tony. º> º> Well, in many parts of the world, transportation is by car... º> And cars are killers of many creatures, who didn't ask º> for a roadkill... Even when buying vegetarian stuff, it is º> likely to have been transported... Roadkill, not your karma? º> º> Joy and Light, º> Jan º ºNamaste J, º ºThere is no will or intent in accident, therefore no ownership of the ºkarmic retribution. There is no excuse for ignorance - when not growing your "Ahimsa stuff" free of death, you are the collector of karma, the issue of intent being moot as the force of gravity doesn't have an intent either, but the 'brick from above' surely can kill... ºI don't eat roadkill as some do I believe. To me ºthere is no difference between an animal and a human. That I see well Tony - hence you collect all the consequences of actions, irrespective "intent" as for animals there is no intent, only reaction. ºSo for example ºthe Nazi Holocaust and the present Abbatoir Holocaust is one and the ºsame, or even the fishing kills. To me there is an important difference between humans and 'wild' animals: the wild animals don't outperform rabbits in multiplying - when the conditions for life are adverse: only humans do.. That is just another perspective on "suffering is man-made". (There are deaths with every breath ºand are unavoidable but no intent, we have to do the best we ºcan.). Unavoidable no - you could terminate life out of compassion for those creatures. Wouldn't such a volitional act bring a great karma? ºHowever there is intent and ownership ºof the karma even if in fact no free will is really involved. Ah ºanother door.....ONS... Being a sentient creature involves a 'bag of karma' all by itself - and in order to live 'a life proper' that means the use of an investigating, analyzing and discriminating mind... Joy and Light, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2001 Report Share Posted June 7, 2001 Dear Markje, > Not bothered, thoughts are things, the karmas is yours....ONS..Tony. When you see Tony on the toad, kill him. Not the animal, but Tony! When I see Tony on my road... He'll have to kill me... Just a road kill Not a toad kill Love, Wim (Just a thought, Tony is not bothered) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 If you meet an image of a toad on the commode, flush it! Flush the commode? How zen! All images come out in the wash. But how to wash the wash out of the image? Love Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 Dear Tony: Namaste. I share some observations with you, a fellow traveller on the path that is oneself ... When the mind repeats its own beliefs to itself, over and over, this creates an unending loop that prevents "opening". The loop is closed by judgment and evaluation that recycle themselves. It is a self-reinforcing mode, generating much emotion to fuel the continuing cycle. The judgments and evaluations serve to maintain the illusion of "the evaluator" ... This includes evaluating who is or isn't a jivanmukti, which is an absurdity, except for an "evaluator" ... If the jivanmukti has said there is no one who is not himself, why would you try to evaluate who is or isn't jivanmukti? If you find no difference between animals and humans, why do you then separate plants and bacteria from animals? Why separate plants from light, earth, air, and water? If "intent" is what you're going by, why have you posted so many times using harsh language about people being superficial, intellectualizing, defiling themselves, etc., without looking at "intent"? Why do you pass judgment on others' intent without looking at your own? If there is no "intent", then there won't be the intent to judge either. If there is the "intent" to judge others, then that intent "becomes its own karma" to use your words. I raise questions about your posts, mostly to suggest that the assumptions fueling the repeating cycle can be questioned. You have said you are questioning, "Who am I?" Are you these assumptions about judgment and evaluation? Whether you will look into these assumptions at some point -- who knows? "Excess toilet paper needs to be flushed, or the commode doesn't work properly." Namaste, Dan Namaste J, There is no will or intent in accident, therefore no ownership of the karmic retribution. I don't eat roadkill as some do I believe. To me there is no difference between an animal and a human. So for example the Nazi Holocaust and the present Abbatoir Holocaust is one and the same, or even the fishing kills. (There are deaths with every breath and are unavoidable but no intent, we have to do the best we can.).However there is intent and ownership of the karma even if in fact no free will is really involved. Ah another door.....ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 , Daniel Berkow <berkowd@u...> wrote: > Dear Tony: > > Namaste. > I share some observations > with you, a fellow > traveller on the path > that is oneself ... > > When the mind repeats > its own beliefs to itself, > over and over, this > creates an unending > loop that prevents > "opening". > > The loop is closed > by judgment > and evaluation > that recycle themselves. > It is a self-reinforcing > mode, generating much > emotion to fuel the > continuing cycle. > > The judgments and evaluations > serve to maintain the illusion > of "the evaluator" ... > > This includes evaluating who > is or isn't a jivanmukti, which > is an absurdity, except for > an "evaluator" ... > > If the jivanmukti has said > there is no one who is > not himself, why would > you try to evaluate > who is or isn't jivanmukti? > > If you find no difference between > animals and humans, why > do you then separate > plants and bacteria from animals? > Why separate plants from > light, earth, air, and water? > > If "intent" is what you're going > by, why have you posted so > many times using harsh > language about people > being superficial, intellectualizing, > defiling themselves, etc., > without looking at "intent"? > Why do you pass judgment > on others' intent without > looking at your own? > > If there is no "intent", then > there won't be the intent > to judge either. If there is > the "intent" to judge > others, then that intent > "becomes its own karma" > to use your words. > > I raise questions about your > posts, mostly to suggest > that the assumptions > fueling the repeating cycle > can be questioned. You have > said you are questioning, > "Who am I?" Are you these > assumptions about judgment > and evaluation? Whether > you will look into these assumptions > at some point -- who knows? > > "Excess toilet paper needs > to be flushed, or the > commode doesn't work > properly." > > Namaste, > Dan Namaste Dan, Sorry I can't understand all that intellectual stuff you wrote. I mostly think that in a field of action, a certain amount of action thought or otherwise to extricate from the situation, is necessary. A Thorn to remove a thorn if you will. I am not as obsessed as I sound on here, as I have mentioned often. This is all a big game, is it not? Yes I see no difference between one cell animals and humans. However there is the problem of developed nervous systems, samskaras, and vibrations. Logically there is a reason for someone like Ramana to say for yoga vegetarianism is an absolute necessity. As for wondering who is a jivanmukti, I think it is important to speculate on that for then one will understand their teachings the better. As I said I can't tell who is, but indicatations show more likely who isn't. We all live in repeated cycles, do you have a different breakfast everyday? As for Hitler, there is a difference between even the entity and the action. Some may say he was working as an instrument of karma, obviously he was but the point is; Was he taking responsibility for what he did? He obviously wasn't doing nishkarma karma was he? In the end tell me why it is fine to kill Tim McVeigh and then I will tell you why it is OK to eat meat!hahahahah...ONS....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 > > In the end tell me why it is fine to kill Tim McVeigh and then I will > tell you why it is OK to eat meat!hahahahah...ONS....Tony. Tony, I believe in what you say and do, but I just could not do. Next lifetime for sure. Love me love you. Alton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 Sorry I can't understand all that intellectual stuff you wrote. Tony, since for you an 'intellectual' is any one who can read and write... And you sneer & rant at 'intellectuals' who seem to be near the top of the hate list along with 'meat-eaters'... And, you don't appear to comprehend anything that anyone says to you...or choose to not comprehend. What is your motivation for your posts? If you have even noticed, besides making every one in the world 'wrong' so you can be 'right' -which must be exhausting for you...you don't seem to notice that you are playing whatever game it is by yourself...no one else is much engaged other than some sense of responsibility towards you as a being which seems to be right over your rather large head. Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 , "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: > > Sorry I can't understand all that intellectual stuff you wrote. > > Tony, since for you an 'intellectual' is any one who can read and write... > And you sneer & rant at 'intellectuals' who seem to be near the top of the > hate list along with 'meat-eaters'... > And, you don't appear to comprehend anything that anyone says to you...or > choose to not comprehend. > What is your motivation for your posts? If you have even noticed, besides > making every one in the world 'wrong' so you can be 'right' -which must be > exhausting for you...you don't seem to notice that you are playing whatever > game it is by yourself...no one else is much engaged other than some sense > of responsibility towards you as a being which seems to be right over your > rather large head. > > Joyce Namaste Joyce, It is necessary to play the game for you to throw the ball in my court....ONS....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 , "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: > > Sorry I can't understand all that intellectual stuff you wrote. > > Tony, since for you an 'intellectual' is any one who can read and write... > And you sneer & rant at 'intellectuals' who seem to be near the top of the > hate list along with 'meat-eaters'... > And, you don't appear to comprehend anything that anyone says to you...or > choose to not comprehend. > What is your motivation for your posts? If you have even noticed, besides > making every one in the world 'wrong' so you can be 'right' -which must be > exhausting for you...you don't seem to notice that you are playing whatever > game it is by yourself...no one else is much engaged other than some sense > of responsibility towards you as a being which seems to be right over your > rather large head. > > Joyce Namaste Joyce. It is not intellectuals per se but intellectualising. For it causes confusion and uncertainty for there are infinite answers and reasons for everything. It is a roundabout in Avidya or false knowledge. It is the opposite of 'be still and know that I am God'. It traps one in the manomayakosa and misuses the intellect. It does not purify or raise awareness just explanations, and incomprehensible language. We are all playing the game by ourselves ultimately. It is not a matter of me being right or wrong, but if you think that then obviously you have doubts that I am wrong. In the end a giant intellectual has to listen to an illiterate sage. I actually feel sorry for intellectuals for they have so much more to impede and to work through than the ordinary man. The biggest impediment to moksha is the mind, so if you have a great developed one, you just have a larger ego and impediment that's all. If you don't want to read what this body writes, click 'next', and censor it. However censorship comes from fear, where does fear come from but the threatended ego!! On the other hand why not reverse the process and you tell me why it is ok to eat meat, execute people etc etc. Make an intellectual argument for it if you wish. I don't have a large head, I may be a large loudspeaker repeating things. Sages teachings usually....ONS....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 Hi Tony! Sorry I can't understand all that intellectual stuff you wrote. I mostly think that in a field of action, a certain amount of action thought or otherwise to extricate from the situation, is necessary. A Thorn to remove a thorn if you will. I am not as obsessed as I sound on here, as I have mentioned often. This is all a big game, is it not? Yes, it most soitenly is. Yes I see no difference between one cell animals and humans. However there is the problem of developed nervous systems, samskaras, and vibrations. Logically there is a reason for someone like Ramana to say for yoga vegetarianism is an absolute necessity. You're getting too intellectual for me to follow ;-) As for wondering who is a jivanmukti, I think it is important to speculate on that for then one will understand their teachings the better. Speculation will just lead to better intellectualization, no? As I said I can't tell who is, but indicatations show more likely who isn't. Without intellectualization -- who is it here that is not you? We all live in repeated cycles, do you have a different breakfast everyday? Anything I say about this will sound too intellectual. But, let me try -- yes, I have a different breakfast every day. How was that? As for Hitler, there is a difference between even the entity and the action. Some may say he was working as an instrument of karma, obviously he was but the point is; Was he taking responsibility for what he did? He obviously wasn't doing nishkarma karma was he? As long as there is an entity conceptualizing itself as taking or avoiding responsibility, what you're saying makes sense -- intellectually speaking, that is ... In the end tell me why it is fine to kill Tim McVeigh and then I will tell you why it is OK to eat meat!hahahahah...ONS....Tony. Answering that will take us far afield, don't you think? You seem to be trying to answer, "what is it okay and not okay for me to do" without having answered "who am I?" fully. Without intellectualizing, isn't it clear that answering "who am I?" fully, will change concepts about what is it okay and not okay for me to do? If "who am I?" is answered, won't it change what I need to try to get others to be doing and not doing? Love, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 Hi Jan, >When the mind repeats its own beliefs to itself, over and over, this >creates an unending loop that prevents "opening". The loop is closed by >judgment and evaluation that recycle themselves. It is a self-reinforcing >mode, generating much emotion to fuel the continuing cycle. I was once told that my knowledge was getting in my way, that my cup was full and I could do nothing more until I emptied my cup. I couldn't understand that... I couldn't empty my brain. I asked a friend what it meant, and he used the same image as you: >>>S: >>>It meant that you were in a closed loop, an illusion created at the >>>mental level... There is nothing you can do about that - as far as I >>>understand it. You must let it run its' course... >> >>D: >>I wonder... If you really get stuck in a closed loop thing on the >>computer, sometimes you just have to turn it off and on again. I >>wonder, if you accepted that you had a closed loop in some particular >>area, if you could do something with it in meditation - maybe shut >>down the whole area, maybe all the thinking, rise above it, and look >>for something else, something different... > >S: >Everything is resolved that way. Switching the lower part off, >getting up, and cleaning from above. D: Hmm, nice clear image!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Hi Dharma -- Actually "Dan" wrote the first paragraph you cited. And, yes, the only "thing" for an endlessly repeating ("closed") loop is "to be turned off" -- It can't turn itself off, and there is no one outside to flip a switch (the idea of someone outside to "make things happen" is part of the loop). Thus, the end comes without beginning, instantly with no duration, timeless and unopposed. "You ain't seen nothing like the Mighty Quinn ..." "Poof" ! A sudden shift to/as Clarity beyond the loop, and the loop is not and never could have been ;-) Love, Dan Hi Jan, >When the mind repeats its own beliefs to itself, over and over, this >creates an unending loop that prevents "opening". The loop is closed by >judgment and evaluation that recycle themselves. It is a self-reinforcing >mode, generating much emotion to fuel the continuing cycle. I was once told that my knowledge was getting in my way, that my cup was full and I could do nothing more until I emptied my cup. I couldn't understand that... I couldn't empty my brain. I asked a friend what it meant, and he used the same image as you: >>>S: >>>It meant that you were in a closed loop, an illusion created at the >>>mental level... There is nothing you can do about that - as far as I >>>understand it. You must let it run its' course... >> >>D: >>I wonder... If you really get stuck in a closed loop thing on the >>computer, sometimes you just have to turn it off and on again. I >>wonder, if you accepted that you had a closed loop in some particular >>area, if you could do something with it in meditation - maybe shut >>down the whole area, maybe all the thinking, rise above it, and look >>for something else, something different... > >S: >Everything is resolved that way. Switching the lower part off, >getting up, and cleaning from above. D: Hmm, nice clear image!! Sponsor /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 but dansan....we who are not are here which is not here but....blah blah blah....poof!.....white wolfe is here and not here.....^^~~~~~ i hear the beloved laughing further up and further in, mark - Daniel Berkow Saturday, June 09, 2001 9:42 AM Re: theological distinctions Hi Dharma --Actually "Dan" wrote the first paragraph you cited.And, yes, the only "thing" for an endlessly repeating ("closed") loop is "to be turned off" --It can't turn itself off, and there is no one outside to flip a switch (the idea of someone outside to "make things happen" is part of the loop).Thus, the end comes without beginning, instantly with no duration, timeless and unopposed."You ain't seen nothing like the Mighty Quinn ...""Poof" !A sudden shift to/as Clarity beyond the loop, and the loop is not and never could have been ;-)Love,Dan Hi Jan,>When the mind repeats its own beliefs to itself, over and over, this>creates an unending loop that prevents "opening". The loop is closed by>judgment and evaluation that recycle themselves. It is a self-reinforcing>mode, generating much emotion to fuel the continuing cycle.I was once told that my knowledge was getting in my way, that my cup wasfull and I could do nothing more until I emptied my cup. I couldn'tunderstand that... I couldn't empty my brain. I asked a friend what itmeant, and he used the same image as you:>>>S:>>>It meant that you were in a closed loop, an illusion created at the>>>mental level... There is nothing you can do about that - as far as I>>>understand it. You must let it run its' course...>>>>D:>>I wonder... If you really get stuck in a closed loop thing on the>>computer, sometimes you just have to turn it off and on again. I>>wonder, if you accepted that you had a closed loop in some particular>>area, if you could do something with it in meditation - maybe shut>>down the whole area, maybe all the thinking, rise above it, and look>>for something else, something different...>>S:>Everything is resolved that way. Switching the lower part off,>getting up, and cleaning from above.D:Hmm, nice clear image!! Sponsor /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Hi Wolfesnow, There is no "but", just "poof" ... "But" is blah blah blah ... "Poof" doesn't have way or means to be here or not here. Dropping every fiber of "being" and letting go even of "no-thing" ... Shhh, Snowolfe but dansan....we who are not are here which is not here but....blah blah blah....poof!.....white wolfe is here and not here.....^^~~~~~ i hear the beloved laughing further up and further in, mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 , Daniel Berkow <berkowd@u...> wrote: > Hi Wolfesnow, > > There is no "but", > just "poof" ... > > "But" is blah blah blah ... > > "Poof" doesn't have > way or means > to be here or > not here. > > Dropping every fiber > of "being" and letting go > even of "no-thing" ... > Namaste , Whose a poof? I have nothing against homosexuals....ONS Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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