relative/absolute & time

[Guest guest]

Some of you may find the issues discussed in this interview to be of

interest, or even, dare I say, "helpful"... Some highlighting of

possible reasons behind differences in the approaches of Buddha,

Ramana, and Jesus is included near the end. Glo

http://www.wie.org/j18/tolle.asp Eckhart Tolle

AC: In your book The Power of Now you state that "The ultimate purpose

of the world lies not within the world but in transcendence of the

world." Could you please explain what you mean?ET: Transcending the

world does not mean to withdraw from the world, to no longer take

action, or to stop interacting with people. Transcendence of the

world is to act and to interact without any self-seeking. In other

words, it means to act without seeking to enhance one's sense of self

through one's actions or one's interactions with people. Ultimately,

it means not needing the future anymore for one's fulfillment or for

one's sense of self or being. There is no seeking through doing,

seeking an enhanced, more fulfilled, or greater sense of self in the

world. When that seeking isn't there anymore, then you can be in the

world but not be of the world. You are no longer seeking for anything

to identify with out there.AC: Do you mean that one has given up an

egotistical, materialistic relationship to the world?ET: Yes, it

means no longer seeking to gain a sense of self, a deeper or enhanced

sense of self. Because in the normal state of consciousness, what

people are looking for through their activity is to be more

completely themselves. The bank robber is looking for that in some

way. The person who is striving for enlightenment is also looking for

it because he or she is seeking to attain a state of perfection, a

state of completion, a state of fullness at some point in the future.

There is a seeking to gain something through one's activities. They

are seeking happiness, but ultimately they are seeking themselves or

you could say God; it comes down to the same thing. They are seeking

themselves, and they are seeking where it can never be found, in the

normal, unenlightened state of consciousness, because the

unenlightened state of consciousness is always in the seeking mode.

That means they are of the world—in the world and of the world.AC:

You mean that they are looking forward in time?ET: Yes, the world and

time are intrinsically connected. When all self-seeking in time

ceases, then you can be in the world without being of the world.

AC: What exactly do you mean when you say that the purpose of the

world lies in the transcendence of it?ET: The world promises

fulfillment somewhere in time, and there is a continuous striving

toward that fulfillment in time. Many times people feel, "Yes, now I

have arrived," and then they realize that, no, they haven't arrived,

and then the striving continues. It is expressed beautifully in A

Course in Miracles, where it says that the dictum of the ego is "Seek

but do not find." People look to the future for salvation, but the

future never arrives.So ultimately, suffering arises through not

finding. And that is the beginning of an awakening—when the

realization dawns that "Perhaps this is not the way. Perhaps I will

never get to where I am striving to reach; perhaps it's not in the

future at all." After having been lost in the world, suddenly,

through the pressure of suffering, the realization comes that the

answers may not be found out there in worldly attainment and in the

future.That's an important point for many people to reach. That sense

of deep crisis—when the world as they have known it, and the sense of

self that they have known that is identified with the world, become

meaningless. That happened to me. I was just that close to suicide

and then something else happened—a death of the sense of self that

lived through identifications, identifications with my story, things

around me, the world. Something arose at that moment that was a sense

of deep and intense stillness and aliveness, beingness. I later called

it "presence." I realized that beyond words, that is who I am. But

this realization wasn't a mental process. I realized that that

vibrantly alive, deep stillness is who I am.Years later, I called

that stillness "pure consciousness," whereas everything else is the

conditioned consciousness. The human mind is the conditioned

consciousness that has taken form as thought. The conditioned

consciousness is the whole world that is created by the conditioned

mind. Everything is our conditioned consciousness; even objects are.

Conditioned consciousness has taken birth as form and then that

becomes the world. So to be lost in the conditioned seems to be

necessary for humans. It seems to be part of their path to be lost in

the world, to be lost in the mind, which is the conditioned

consciousness.Then, due to the suffering that arises out of being

lost, one finds the unconditioned as oneself. And that is why we need

the world to transcend the world. So I'm infinitely grateful for

having been lost.The purpose of the world is for you to be lost in

it, ultimately. The purpose of the world is for you to suffer, to

create the suffering that seems to be what is needed for the

awakening to happen. And then once the awakening happens, with it

comes the realization that suffering is unnecessary now. You have

reached the end of suffering because you have transcended the world.

It is the place that is free of suffering.This seems to be

everybody's path. Perhaps it is not everybody's path in this

lifetime, but it seems to be a universal path. Even without a

spiritual teaching or a spiritual teacher, I believe that everybody

would get there eventually. But that could take time.AC: A long

time.ET: Much longer. A spiritual teaching is there to save time. The

basic message of the teaching is that you don't need any more time,

you don't need any more suffering. I tell this to people who come to

me: "You are ready to hear this because you are listening to it.

There are still millions of people out there who are not listening to

it. They still need time. But I am not talking to them. You are

hearing that you don't need time anymore and you don't need to suffer

anymore. You've been seeking in time and you've been seeking further

suffering." And to suddenly hear that "You don't need that

anymore—for some, that can be the moment of transformation.So the

beauty of the spiritual teaching is that it saves lifetimes of—AC:

Unnecessary suffering.********* snipped*****

So why do you think the approaches of these two spiritual luminaries

differ so widely? Why do you think that the Buddha encouraged his

disciples to leave the world while Ramana encouraged them to stay

where they were?ET: There's not one way that that works. Different

ages have certain approaches, which may be more effective for one age

and no longer effective in another age. The world that we live in now

has much greater density to it; it is much more all-pervasive. And

when I say "world," I include the human mind in it. The human mind

has grown even since the time of the Buddha, 2,500 years ago. The

human mind is more noisy and more all-pervasive, and the egos are

bigger. There's been an ego growth over thousands of years; it's

growing to a point of madness, with the ultimate madness having been

reached in the twentieth century. One only needs to read

twentieth-century history to see that it has been the climax of human

madness, if it's measured in terms of human violence inflicted on

other humans.So in the present time, we can't escape from the world

anymore; we can't escape from the mind. We need to enter surrender

while we are in the world. That seems to be the path that is

effective in the world that we live in now. It may be that at the

time of the Buddha, withdrawing was much, much easier than it would

be now. The human mind was not yet so overwhelming at that time.AC:

But the reason that the Buddha preached leading the homeless life was

because he felt that the household life was full of worries, cares,

and concerns, and in that context he felt it would be difficult to do

what was needed to live the holy life. So in terms of what you're

saying about the noise and distraction of the world, that is actually

precisely what he was addressing and why in fact he led the homeless

life and encouraged other people to do the same.ET: Well, he gave his

reasons, but ultimately we don't know why the Buddha put the emphasis

on leaving the world rather than saying as Ramana Maharshi did, "Do

it in the world." But it seems to me, from what I have observed, that

the more effective way now is for people to surrender in the world

rather than attempt to remove themselves from the world and create a

structure that makes it easier to surrender. There's a contradiction

there already because you're creating a structure to make it easier

to surrender. Why not surrender now? You don't need to create

anything to make surrender easier because then it's not true

surrender anymore. I've stayed in Buddhist monasteries and I can see

how easily it can happen—they have given up their name and adopted a

new name, they've shaved their heads, they wear their robes—AC:

You're saying that one world has been abandoned for another. One

identification has been given up for another; one role has been

dropped and another has been assumed. Nothing has actually been given

up.ET: That's right. Therefore do it where you are, right here, right

now. There's no need to seek out some other place or some other

condition or situation and then do it there. Do it right here and

now. Wherever you are is the place for surrender. Whatever the

situation is that you're in, you can say "yes" to what is, and that

is then the basis for all further action.AC: There are many teachers

and teachings today that say that the very desire to renounce the

world is an expression of ego. How do you see that?ET: The desire to

renounce the world is again the desire to reach a certain state that

you don't have now. There's a mental projection of a desirable state

to reach—the state of renunciation. It's self-seeking through future.

In that sense, it is ego. True renunciation isn't the desire to

renounce; it arises as surrender. You cannot have a desire to

surrender because that's non-surrender. Surrender arises

spontaneously sometimes in people who don't even have a word for it.

And I know that openness is there in many people now. Many people who

come to me have a great openness. Sometimes it only requires a few

words and immediately they have a glimpse, a taste of surrender,

which may not yet be lasting, but the opening is there.

[Guest guest]

, "Gloria Lee" <glee@i...> wrote:

> Some of you may find the issues discussed in this interview to be of

interest, or even, dare I say, "helpful"... Some highlighting of

possible reasons behind differences in the approaches of Buddha,

Ramana, and Jesus is included near the end. Glo

 

 

Namast Glo,

 

Yes, 'Before Abraham I am', ...Jesus.

The differences are the four yogas of the Gita, suiting temperament.

Also one has to take into account the prevailing culture of the day

and country etc.

 

They all teach to be in the world but not of it really.

 

Ramana says it is only valid as an appearance which is of course

projected by the Self, as a step to realising it wasn't projected at

all........ONS....Tony.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

>Yes, 'Before Abraham I am', ...Jesus.

 

Let's get it right...

 

"Before Abraham was, I am."

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

dhrama....we are so lucky to have you here....enclycopediac is your

range....and a sharp-shooter on top of it all.....please take care to miss

when you aim at me....i am officially listed as an endangered

specie!........^^~~~~~~

-

Dharma <deva

<>

Saturday, June 09, 2001 11:34 AM

Re: Re: relative/absolute & time

 

> Hi Tony,

>

> >Yes, 'Before Abraham I am', ...Jesus.

>

> Let's get it right...

>

> "Before Abraham was, I am."

>

> Love,

> Dharma

>

>

>

> /join

>

>

>

>

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 12:06 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote:

dhrama....we are so lucky to

have you here....enclycopediac is your

range....and a sharp-shooter on top of it all.....please take care to

miss

when you aim at me....i am officially listed as an endangered

specie!........^^~~~~~~

Cute!

Remember what Muhammed Ali said,

"if they hit where I ain't,

I ain't hit" (or was it --

"float like a butterfly,

sting like a bee" ? :-- )

Anyway, I float like a lead

weight and sting like a turtle,

but my species isn't even studied,

so I'm safe ;-)

Dhrama -- is that what is called

a Freudian Wolfie?

Love,

Dan

[Guest guest]

>dhrama....we are so lucky to have you here....enclycopediac is your

>range....and a sharp-shooter on top of it all.....please take care to miss

>when you aim at me....i am officially listed as an endangered

>specie!........^^~~~~~~

 

I love wolves... I would NEVER shoot at a White Wolf!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

unless he keeps on calling me dhrama

[Guest guest]

On 6/9/01 at 4:03 PM Dharma wrote:

 

º>dhrama....we are so lucky to have you here....enclycopediac is your

º>range....and a sharp-shooter on top of it all.....please take care to miss

º>when you aim at me....i am officially listed as an endangered

º>specie!........^^~~~~~~

º

ºI love wolves... I would NEVER shoot at a White Wolf!!

º

And at a gray, a black or a purple one?

º

º

º

º

º

ºunless he keeps on calling me dhrama

 

That's easy: shoot at the wolf with meat-projectiles )

Killed by what the wolf loves most: meat!!!

Now that's a nice dhrama