Wisdom better than altered state of consciousness?

[Guest guest]

Wisdom better than altered state of consciousness?

 

1] I think that real transcendence is a function of wisdom, not a function

of some altered state or getting to some other realm. [JG ... see below]

 

2] Ramana v/s Budhha [see below]

 

Andrew Cohen: It seems that in Buddhism in general, and especially in the

Theravada school, which is considered to be the school most closely aligned

with the Buddha's original teachings, the transcendence of the world is a

foundational theme of the teaching. Yet, we live in a time when many

influential voices in the spiritual world are passionately pointing out

what they consider to be the dangers of this kind of view, saying that it's

patriarchal, hierarchical, anti-earth, anti-body, anti-sexuality and

inherently anti-feminine.

 

Joseph Goldstein: I've had experiences on retreat of being in a place of

tremendous peace and calm and connectedness, and yet from the outside it

may look withdrawn, indifferent, or uncaring. There's a huge danger of

projection about individual practitioners and about whole traditions. And

so I think it's very important not to be caught in these kinds of sweeping

generalizations, disconnected from the actual experience of people

practicing in these traditions, because their experience practicing may be

completely different from what it looks like to somebody on the outside. ......

........One meaning of transcendence is having consciousness abide in some

other realm, disconnected from the earth, where one is just kind of blissed

out. But I think that's not what the Buddha's talking about at all, and

it's not what the practice of Theravada Buddhism is about or any other

Buddhist tradition that I know of. The real transcendence, to my way of

understanding, is much simpler. It's the transcendence of the sense of

self, which is created through identification with various aspects of our

experience, taking them to be self. It's the realization of emptiness of

self. I think that real transcendence is a function of wisdom, not a

function of some altered state or getting to some other realm.

.................snip........

 

AC: (laughs) I have one last question. I think it can be said that for most

people who are participating in the East-meets-West spiritual explosion

that is occurring with ever-greater speed these days, both Gautama the

Buddha and Ramana Maharshi, one of the most respected Vedantins of the

modern era, stand out as peerless examples of full-blown enlightenment. And

yet, interestingly enough, with regard to this question of the right

relationship to the world for the spiritual aspirant, their teachings

diverged dramatically.

The Buddha, the world renouncer, encouraged those who were most sincere to

leave the world and follow him in order to live the holy life, free from

the cares and concerns of the householder life. Yet Ramana Maharshi

discouraged his disciples from leaving the household life in pursuit of

greater spiritual focus and intensity. In fact, he discouraged any outward

acts of renunciation and instead encouraged the aspirant to look within and

find the cause of ignorance and suffering within the self. Indeed, many of

his growing number of devotees today say that the desire to renounce is an

expression of ego, the very part of the self that we want to liberate

ourselves from if we want to be free. Of course, the Buddha laid great

stress on the need for renunciation, detachment, diligence, and restraint

as the very foundation on which liberating insight can occur. Why do you

think that the approaches of these two spiritual luminaries differed so

widely? And why do you think that the Buddha encouraged his disciples to

leave the world while Ramana encouraged them to stay where they were?

 

 

[ http://www.wie.org/j18 ] [There's No Escape from the World ... An

Interview with Joseph Goldstein] In my opinion this article has a lot of

important issues discussed in it. Anybody who is interested in spiritual

matters, and specially the difference between Buddhism and the middle

eastern religions should visit this site and download the whole article.

 

________________________________

Love makes the heart laugh.

I wish you Love. [God is Love]

CyberDervish

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Jan for the pieces in your post...

 

It is interesting how Cohen describes the Buddha Gautama Shakyamuni as

the world renouncer. Apart from what is written ABOUT him what do we

know? Mostly post vivam interpretations of followers who did not

understand him otherwise they would not have followed him around.

 

I find Goldstein's paragraph remarkably insightful and the conclusion

may say more about Gautama Shakyamuni than whatever teachings are

attributed to him:

> I've had experiences on retreat of being in a place of

> tremendous peace and calm and connectedness, and yet from the outside

it

> may look withdrawn, indifferent, or uncaring. There's a huge danger of

> projection about individual practitioners and about whole traditions.

And

> so I think it's very important not to be caught in these kinds of

sweeping

> generalizations, disconnected from the actual experience of people

> practicing in these traditions, because their experience practicing

may be

> completely different from what it looks like to somebody on the

outside.

 

Thanks,

Wim