Wisdom not other than altered state of consciousness?

[Guest guest]

Any state, any phenomena is not other than intrinsic primordial mind

but the recognition of this has to be present in mind, moment to

moment. Without this recognition, the grasping habit of mind appears

and duality is experienced.

Wisdom better than altered state of consciousness?

1] I think that real transcendence is a function of wisdom, not a function

of some altered state or getting to some other realm. [JG ... see below]

2] Ramana v/s Budhha [see below]

Andrew Cohen: It seems that in Buddhism in general, and especially in the

Theravada school, which is considered to be the school most closely aligned

with the Buddha's original teachings, the transcendence of the world is a

foundational theme of the teaching.

Joyce: How dare I argue with Andrew Cohen but......the foundational

theme of the teaching of the Buddha, the core teaching, as expressed

in Theravda is impermanence, suffering and non-self. All suffering

arises through misidentification, the "world" arises through contact

with any of the sense-doors where delusional sense of self or 'I' is

present. Instead of there merely being 'hearing' the 'I' self-habit

creates duality, "I am hearing, I am liking or disliking what I am

hearing and so on. From this duality arising out of clinging and

grasping 'the world" an 'other' arises, within and without. When

there is the identification "I am" a man, woman, mother, father,

spiritual practitioner, Thera, Advaitan, etc. then there's

trouble/suffering. With practice, mind recognizes its essential

nature and sees all phenomena as emptiness, non self and thus there

is a shift from the sense that one is the center of the universe to

only the universe, 'ego' separates from awareness, all arisings

whatever then the expression of awareness, there is final and

complete relinuqishment of self and all sense of duality. There is

no essential difference between Dzogchen and Thera or any other

Buddhist teaching. Non-self, emptiness = Great Space, Great

Compassion, or as the traditional teaching of the Buddha goes:

"O Bahiya, whever you see a form, let there be just the seeing,

whenever you hear and sound, let there be just the hearing...." etc.

No more 'dual' experience, no more suffering self and complete

acceptance of 'the world' however awareness is expressing itself as

'world' or any phenomena. To be truly 'homeless' and to renounce the

'world' is merely a way of saying that mind does not dwell anywhere,

nothing worth having, nothing worth being. A practitioner may

continually explore where mind is taking up temporary residence in

the present. It is most likely occurring because of contact and thus

liking and or disliking.

Whatever is found at this point of complete relinquishment of 'I', the

Buddha did not discuss. It is beyond the range of mind/body. My

experience is limited but I don't find any 'differences' in any core

religious teachings. Many differences and disputes between various

'views' yet they all arise out of emptiness and there return.

As the introduction to this list states: "...all experiences arises

from, exist in, and subside back into the space of awareness. Like

waves arising they are not different than the ocean, all things

arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness

does not come and go but is always present" etc. Seems completely

'Buddhist' and Thera to me. The Thera masters do not speak

publically about practice experience as this takes mind away from

direct experience of Truth in to mental proliferation and

discursiveness. Thus misunderstandings about this tradition occur in

the minds of those who are not practitioners of Thera. Vipassana is

completely the practice of hooking into the flow of transcedence

which is the natural law the Buddha taught about. This flow leads

into the 'world.' One is in the world but not of it. Any state

which is impermanent, any bliss or other meditative phenomena here

also including kundalini, also only a manifestation of wisdom mind,

other than full realization of truth/wisdom, everything is noted and

not clung to. "Transcendence" is

transcendence/relinquishment/surrender of "I' and 'mine' duality so

that only wisdom is left. And is not very far away in any moment and

certainly there isn't any 'anti'-anything at all, except at the

beginning of practice. Just inquiry and investigation. No 'I' to

become wise, mind recognizes truth. As direct as Zen, Dzogchen for

those who see, and there lies the difficulty.

Metta,

Joyce