Verbal Non-Dualism dangers

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/21/01 1:50:12 PM, aoclery writes:

 

Tony} Therefore VNDism, without developed spiritual awareness is likely to

be sterile. Why? Because instead of skipping the mind, it spends a lot

of energy, editing out, Is, Mys etc and insists on regimented

thinking, almost cult like!!!

 

Anna} What is VNDism?

 

What is "developed spiritual awareness?"

 

Sterile?

 

Define "cult like." Meaning that everyone must follow the leader, or else?

 

Tony} Ramana's system had nothing to do with that, he just said go within

find the real 'I'. >>

 

Anna} Always back to "Know Thyself" :-)

 

"Danger" strikes me as a fear word as opposed to a love word ... fear

being here defined as a lack of faith and trust in Divine Love, that is

what fear is for me ... :-)

 

L*L*L

 

Anna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/21/01 3:23:19 PM, aoclery writes:

 

<< Namaste Anna,

 

If danger stops you falling over a cliff its a love word, in your

speak!!! >>

 

LOL! Namaste Tony,

 

Not necessarily - could be the edge I'm walking and I'd like to fall in,

die and be reborn ... could be an Abyss :-)

 

Anna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/21/01 3:23:19 PM, aoclery writes:

 

<<

T} Cultlike, in the way Verbal Non Dualists, insist on ways of speech and

constantly correct, as being the only way etc. This is the typical

western shallowness, that wants fast food realisation without tears.

They want to do nothing but 'think', their way to realisation without

any sadhana really. Developed spiritual awareness is a purfied Buddhi

or on the way there.

 

A} Okay - I used to hate hypocrisy, so I prayed to forgive all the

hypocrites. Whatever part of me that was being hypocritical got

healed. Not all the hypocrites in the world vanished. But - I rarely

witness it anymore, either by the way I've chosen to live - I don't

watch television - or just by the people in my life.

 

It is sometimes almost impossible for me to identify where this trait

lives in me. But, if it is something I am pointing my finger at, there

are always four fingers of my hand pointed back at me - and it is

about me that the reaction is being had.

 

I think there are shallow westerners and also deeply profound

westerners. My ability to see either depends on what is in me.

I cannot see - nor point a finger at what has not lived within me.

 

There are also deeply profound Easterners and very shallow

Easterners. If I find it is endemic to my culture than it is endemic

to me.

 

T} True Ahimsa also includes violence, it is not non action. For example

people on here get very mad at me if I mention the suffering of

animals and meat eating. They accuse me of violence for daring to

point out their addictions. People get almost offended by vegetarians

why is that? What is being offended?

 

A} A greater part of tolerance is allowing people to walk their own

path. It is not my place to judge anyone else's spiritual level. I don't

know if the guru, or the lady in the slums who has to live in violence,

impoverished and raise three children who has no time for meditation

is more spiritually advanced. And, it would be enormously egotistical

of me to judge another for eating whatever they choose to eat.

 

For myself, I may choose what seems appropriate to me. For my

children, I may choose what is appropriate to them, and normally,

very young children will eat when hungry and choose wisely given

an option. When I put fresh fruit and potato chips in front of my

(back then) three year old, he would choose the fruit.

 

Tony} If a policeman sees a criminal attacking a person and shoots him, that

is not a violation of ahimsa, to do nothing and watch would be

complicity and therefore a violation of ahimsa.

 

A} Sometimes a guru will take an action to evidence some trait.

 

There is a great book about people who have been attacked by

murderers, rapists, etc., and come through without rape, murder

or a scratch, by being in a place of perfect love. By seeing and

identifying that perfect love within another, by touching this

place of divine within each of us. It is called _ Creating Miracles_

it is a verrrry beautiful book. I think it's by Caroline Miller,

I've lent it to a shrink at the moment who heads a healing center.

 

 

 

T} People trot out statements from Yogananda, but I talked to some very

old devotees, who know about his death even, and they have a very

different story from the official line. One has to take responsibility

for one's own actions, otherwise don't wear the badge on the sleeve.

 

ONS.....Tony.

>>

 

Tony, when I began reading Autobiography of a Yogi, by Yogananda

I had a very profound experience at my third eye ... which was described

100 pages beyond where I was currently reading. I was a teen, and it

truly made me feel "nutters" and I thought no one I knew would have

any clue as to what I was talking about. I felt like I was leaving everyone

I knew and loved. So, you have brought up someone with whom I

have always felt a connection. Although, at the time, I instantly quit

meditating *g* and returned to the "real" world.

 

Anna

[Guest guest]

, SunsDove@a... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 6/21/01 1:50:12 PM, aoclery writes:

 

 

Namaste Anna,

 

If danger stops you falling over a cliff its a love word, in your

speak!!!

 

Cultlike, in the way Verbal Non Dualists, insist on ways of speech and

constantly correct, as being the only way etc. This is the typical

western shallowness, that wants fast food realisation without tears.

They want to do nothing but 'think', their way to realisation without

any sadhana really. Developed spiritual awareness is a purfied Buddhi

or on the way there.

 

True Ahimsa also includes violence, it is not non action. For example

people on here get very mad at me if I mention the suffering of

animals and meat eating. They accuse me of violence for daring to

point out their addictions. People get almost offended by vegetarians

why is that? What is being offended?

 

If a policeman sees a criminal attacking a person and shoots him, that

is not a violation of ahimsa, to do nothing and watch would be

complicity and therefore a violation of ahimsa.

 

People trot out statements from Yogananda, but I talked to some very

old devotees, who know about his death even, and they have a very

different story from the official line. One has to take responsibility

for one's own actions, otherwise don't wear the badge on the sleeve.

 

ONS.....Tony.

[Guest guest]

, SunsDove@a... wrote:

> Anna

 

Namaste Anna,

 

I don't want to get into the vege thing again, it causes too much of a

furor.

With regard to choices though, choosing to do something that causes

incredible suffering and deprivation to a sentient being is hardly an

academic choice. Not pointing that out is Ahimsa itself.

 

Jesus and throwing the money changers out of the temple precincts, was

much more than that. They were changing money to buy animals to

sacrifice, hence Jesus's 'My father doesn't want burnt offerings'.

 

With regard to Indian Gurus. I have spent some time in India( my

father was also an officer in the Indian Army), and until very

recently, if one wanted to make progess one went on this path. Kind of

like Christianity before the reformation, it was the only game in

town. So there are many gurus who teach the perennial wisdom. It

sounds true because it is the Truth. Even a scoundrel teaching this

Sanathan Dharma will do some good, and some will have samskaras from

previous lives activated. Which is what happened with you and

yogananda's books, I have them all also. I prefer to read the textual

scriptures and upanishads which are the source though.

 

I make no judgement on Yogananda or any 'Roadshow Gurus'. I know only

one that I can for sure say something negative, that I have proof of.

 

The Inner Guru is the best one of all. If you wish to read their books

fine, most of the stuff is true and wise, but they don't write it. It

is regurgitated........ONS......Tony.

[Guest guest]

Namaste' Tony,

 

You are absolutely correct when you say:

> The Inner Guru is the best one of all.

 

and that is why Anna got so much from Yogananda - she was able to

read the same books you have and in her case she allowed them to be

the instrument that opened her Heart - the Inner Guru.

 

 

May you be blessed with the same benediction in whatever

'way' this Grace comes to you.

 

Love,

james

 

 

 

 

, "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> , SunsDove@a... wrote:

> > Anna

>

> Namaste Anna,

>

> I don't want to get into the vege thing again, it causes too much of

a

> furor.

> With regard to choices though, choosing to do something that causes

> incredible suffering and deprivation to a sentient being is hardly

an

> academic choice. Not pointing that out is Ahimsa itself.

>

> Jesus and throwing the money changers out of the temple precincts,

was

> much more than that. They were changing money to buy animals to

> sacrifice, hence Jesus's 'My father doesn't want burnt offerings'.

>

> With regard to Indian Gurus. I have spent some time in India( my

> father was also an officer in the Indian Army), and until very

> recently, if one wanted to make progess one went on this path. Kind

of

> like Christianity before the reformation, it was the only game in

> town. So there are many gurus who teach the perennial wisdom. It

> sounds true because it is the Truth. Even a scoundrel teaching this

> Sanathan Dharma will do some good, and some will have samskaras from

> previous lives activated. Which is what happened with you and

> yogananda's books, I have them all also. I prefer to read the

textual

> scriptures and upanishads which are the source though.

>

> I make no judgement on Yogananda or any 'Roadshow Gurus'. I know

only

> one that I can for sure say something negative, that I have proof

of.

>

> The Inner Guru is the best one of all. If you wish to read their

books

> fine, most of the stuff is true and wise, but they don't write it.

It

> is regurgitated........ONS......Tony.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Anna,

I don't want to get into the vege thing again, it causes too much of a furor.

Namaste Tony,

The point is not in the vegetables or lack thereof, the point is

in my judging someone else's choices. It's their life, not mine.

I can pray for another, for myself, but it is an enormous ego

jump to decide what another should do. I have no idea what

their zillions of past lives entail, it would be to make myself

God. I have no idea what all my own past lives entail, nor

do I think it beneficial to go digging around the Akashic records.

The point is that if I judge another, I beg their judgement on

me. Like attracts like. I give another total freedom and love

then that is what I will attract. Frankly, I appreciate others

tolerance for my imperfections, and am more than delighted

to give it back.

I will only draw into my life to witness what my mind is focused

on as a current energetic quantum wave. It's a universal law

as well as a law of physics. For example, gravity is a relative

law, in space past our gravitational pull, there is no gravity.

e=mc2 is a universal law, whether I'm on a star, in space or

on earth this law works. And, I'm not just quoting this, I've

worked this equation with serious reams and reams of paper

of mathematical equations on a 50 hour waking period. So,

I don't "think" these things, I "know" these things. Big diff.

Judgement works like that. For all you know, the cow and

the person made an agreement for the cow to be eaten before

the person was born, you don't know that, I don't know that,

Christ said that it was not our place to judge,

I do believe you know that Christ said that, yes? ... since I grew up

extremely close to these original sources at the Vatican,

this is one little gig I do know a little something about.

Not much, and I thank God, know less every day :-)

Dumb and Dumber, getting Blonder by the moment,

Anna

[Guest guest]

For all we know, plants are alive and have feelings. Scientific

experiments have shown them to react positively to certain types of

music, and to subtly "move away" from perceived threats (captured on

slow motion camera).

 

Not that this is a justification (or a non-justification) as far as

eating, just pointing it out. Life feeds on life, there is no

getting around it.

 

If plants do indeed have "the desire to be" or an instinctive "will

to live" like all other living species, then the only remaining

option is fruitarianism. i know of only one fruitarian on these

lists.

 

Brushing one's teeth, hundreds of thousands of bacteria are killed.

Is this lack of compassion, or do we draw the line at "a nervous

system able to feel pain?" (in which case, gardening is most likely

murder, since earthworms have highly developed nervous systems).

 

Where *does* one draw the line, anyway? :-).

 

Namaste,

 

Omkara

 

, SunsDove@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 06/21/2001 6:53:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> aoclery writes:

>

>

> > Namaste Anna,

> >

> > I don't want to get into the vege thing again, it causes too much

of a

> > furor.

> >

>

> Namaste Tony,

>

> The point is not in the vegetables or lack thereof, the point is

> in my judging someone else's choices. It's their life, not mine.

> I can pray for another, for myself, but it is an enormous ego

> jump to decide what another should do. I have no idea what

> their zillions of past lives entail, it would be to make myself

> God. I have no idea what all my own past lives entail, nor

> do I think it beneficial to go digging around the Akashic records.

>

> The point is that if I judge another, I beg their judgement on

> me. Like attracts like. I give another total freedom and love

> then that is what I will attract. Frankly, I appreciate others

> tolerance for my imperfections, and am more than delighted

> to give it back.

>

> I will only draw into my life to witness what my mind is focused

> on as a current energetic quantum wave. It's a universal law

> as well as a law of physics. For example, gravity is a relative

> law, in space past our gravitational pull, there is no gravity.

> e=mc2 is a universal law, whether I'm on a star, in space or

> on earth this law works. And, I'm not just quoting this, I've

> worked this equation with serious reams and reams of paper

> of mathematical equations on a 50 hour waking period. So,

> I don't "think" these things, I "know" these things. Big diff.

>

> Judgement works like that. For all you know, the cow and

> the person made an agreement for the cow to be eaten before

> the person was born, you don't know that, I don't know that,

> Christ said that it was not our place to judge,

> I do believe you know that Christ said that, yes? ... since I grew

up

> extremely close to these original sources at the Vatican,

> this is one little gig I do know a little something about.

> Not much, and I thank God, know less every day :-)

>

> Dumb and Dumber, getting Blonder by the moment,

>

> Anna

[Guest guest]

, SunsDove@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 06/21/2001 6:53:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> aoclery writes:

>

>

> > Namaste Anna,

> >

> > I don't want to get into the vege thing again, it causes too much

of a

> > furor.

> >

>

> Namaste Tony,

>

> The point is not in the vegetables or lack thereof, the point is

> in my judging someone else's choices. It's their life, not mine.

> Anna

 

Namaste Anna,

 

Again it is people's own minds that think I am judging them. I have

pointed out that vibrations from the flesh are an impediment to

spiritual development, 'awareness sheath'.

I have quoted Ramana on this and last night I was looking at my notes

on Paramahamsa Yogananda on the same subject, vibrations etc.

 

'Mans eternal quest', p 382, p366,

'Autobiography of a Yogi.' p 207.

 

The other point is the violation of Ahimsa, it is not just a personal

choice, that is so pc!!!!

It is about the cruel inhumane torture and slaughter of animals to

satisfy the sensual addictions of unaware people. I feel that not

speaking up for the animals I am complicit in their murder and

treatment. It is fine for people to have choices, but not choices that

cause violence and death to other sentient beings.

 

Again I don't talk to people not on the spiritual path about this

subject, but people on this list are supposed to have a modicum of

awareness.????????????/

 

Om Namah Sivaya......Tony.

[Guest guest]

, "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote:

>

> For all we know, plants are alive and have feelings. Scientific

> experiments have shown them to react positively to certain types of

> music, and to subtly "move away" from perceived threats (captured on

> slow motion camera).

>

> Not that this is a justification (or a non-justification) as far as

> eating, just pointing it out. Life feeds on life, there is no

> getting around it.

>

> If plants do indeed have "the desire to be" or an instinctive "will

> to live" like all other living species, then the only remaining

> option is fruitarianism. i know of only one fruitarian on these

> lists.

>

> Brushing one's teeth, hundreds of thousands of bacteria are killed.

> Is this lack of compassion, or do we draw the line at "a nervous

> system able to feel pain?" (in which case, gardening is most likely

> murder, since earthworms have highly developed nervous systems).

>

> Where *does* one draw the line, anyway? :-).

>

> Namaste,

>

> Omkara

 

Namaste All,

 

These are rationalisations. All one can do is one's best. The Hindus

admit that being alive causes death of other beings, bacteria, plants

etc. This is one of the reasons for the veneration of the cow as a

representative of the animals. They also have various karmas to do to

offset this bad karma. Like looking after plants and animals, and not

eating meat.

 

Plants don't have developed nervous systems that's true, but can react

to stimuli, there is only one mind. Read secret life of plants or

Rabindranath Tagore, Bose etc.

 

A native american hunted and lived in the bush, no supermarkets,

prayed and offered apologies to the souls of trees and animals, that

were killed to keep him alive. No doubt the Inuit do too.

 

It still boils down to Ramana saying, 'vegetarianism is absolutely

necessary for any kind of yoga'. I think I have exhaustedly explained

why, again and again and again. Ahimsa, Vibrations, and withdrawal of

the senses from attachments and addictions.

 

It is about taking a step in the right direction, admitting the fact

and making a serious attempt at a yoga, not making excuses for a

disgusting harmful sensual habit.

 

For the human animals, I would no more castigate them for meat eating

than I would my dog or cat, that's their level of awareness.

 

Supposed Sadhakas is something else altogether, otherwise they are

perhaps Nastikas.

 

Om Namah Sivaya.....Tony.

[Guest guest]

Are we not all someone or somethings next meal?

 

It is not what goes in the mouth

that makes a person pure,

it is what comes out...

--Jesus Christ

 

Michael

 

Tony O'Clery wrote:

> , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote:

> >

> > For all we know, plants are alive and have feelings. Scientific

> > experiments have shown them to react positively to certain types of

> > music, and to subtly "move away" from perceived threats (captured on

>

> > slow motion camera).

> >

> > Not that this is a justification (or a non-justification) as far as

> > eating, just pointing it out. Life feeds on life, there is no

> > getting around it.

> >

> > If plants do indeed have "the desire to be" or an instinctive "will

> > to live" like all other living species, then the only remaining

> > option is fruitarianism. i know of only one fruitarian on these

> > lists.

> >

> > Brushing one's teeth, hundreds of thousands of bacteria are killed.

>

> > Is this lack of compassion, or do we draw the line at "a nervous

> > system able to feel pain?" (in which case, gardening is most likely

> > murder, since earthworms have highly developed nervous systems).

> >

> > Where *does* one draw the line, anyway? :-).

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > Omkara

>

> Namaste All,

>

> These are rationalisations. All one can do is one's best. The Hindus

> admit that being alive causes death of other beings, bacteria, plants

> etc. This is one of the reasons for the veneration of the cow as a

> representative of the animals. They also have various karmas to do to

> offset this bad karma. Like looking after plants and animals, and not

> eating meat.

>

> Plants don't have developed nervous systems that's true, but can react

>

> to stimuli, there is only one mind. Read secret life of plants or

> Rabindranath Tagore, Bose etc.

>

> A native american hunted and lived in the bush, no supermarkets,

> prayed and offered apologies to the souls of trees and animals, that

> were killed to keep him alive. No doubt the Inuit do too.

>

> It still boils down to Ramana saying, 'vegetarianism is absolutely

> necessary for any kind of yoga'. I think I have exhaustedly explained

> why, again and again and again. Ahimsa, Vibrations, and withdrawal of

> the senses from attachments and addictions.

>

> It is about taking a step in the right direction, admitting the fact

> and making a serious attempt at a yoga, not making excuses for a

> disgusting harmful sensual habit.

>

> For the human animals, I would no more castigate them for meat eating

> than I would my dog or cat, that's their level of awareness.

>

> Supposed Sadhakas is something else altogether, otherwise they are

> perhaps Nastikas.

>

> Om Namah Sivaya.....Tony.

>

>

>

> Sponsor

[Check out great fares at Orbitz!]

>

> /join

>

>

>

>

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

> subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

> different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

> nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

> Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

> to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

> Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

> Self. Welcome all to a.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, "Michael D. Johnson" <michael@p...> wrote:

> Are we not all someone or somethings next meal?

>

> It is not what goes in the mouth

> that makes a person pure,

> it is what comes out...

> --Jesus Christ

>

> Michael

 

Namaste All, Out of context of course!!!!

 

Unfortunately what comes out has a direct relationship to what goes

in. Absorbing bad vibrations produces bad vibrations and stifles

awareness. I believe there are only 13 lines in the New Testament that

can be directly attributed to Jesus, I'm not sure this is one of them.

 

ONS......Tony.

[Guest guest]

On 6/22/01 at 4:48 PM Tony O'Clery wrote:

 

[...]ºNamaste All,

º

[...]

ºIt still boils down to Ramana saying, 'vegetarianism is absolutely

ºnecessary for any kind of yoga'. I think I have exhaustedly explained

ºwhy, again and again and again. Ahimsa, Vibrations, and withdrawal of

ºthe senses from attachments and addictions.

[...]

 

Now that could be called either a childish perspective, sheer ignorance

or another quote out of context. One example regarding milk:

Large scale milk production is impossible without killing calves.

As all mammals have emotions and the mother-child relationship is one of

the strongest, consider the suffering involved...

Ovo-lacto vegetarianism and Ahimsa? Thanks for the laugh!

Still using dairy products Tony, while lecturing list-members on Ahimsa?

That makes it a mere intellectual exercise and not a very good one -

guess what it does 'karmically', considering 'ignorance is no excuse'...

 

Joy and Light,

Jan

[Guest guest]

, "jb" <janb@a...> wrote:

> On 6/22/01 at 4:48 PM Tony O'Clery wrote:

>

> [...]ºNamaste All,

> º

> [...]

> ºIt still boils down to Ramana saying, 'vegetarianism is absolutely

> ºnecessary for any kind of yoga'. I think I have exhaustedly

explained

> ºwhy, again and again and again. Ahimsa, Vibrations, and withdrawal

of

> ºthe senses from attachments and addictions.

> [...]

>

> Now that could be called either a childish perspective, sheer

ignorance

> or another quote out of context. One example regarding milk:

> Large scale milk production is impossible without killing calves.

> As all mammals have emotions and the mother-child relationship is

one of

> the strongest, consider the suffering involved...

> Ovo-lacto vegetarianism and Ahimsa? Thanks for the laugh!

> Still using dairy products Tony, while lecturing list-members on

Ahimsa?

> That makes it a mere intellectual exercise and not a very good one -

> guess what it does 'karmically', considering 'ignorance is no

excuse'...

>

> Joy and Light,

> Jan

 

Namaste Jan,

 

You are the sarcastic ponce that first had a go at me, and set the

game on this list. More fool me to listen to a fool like you.

 

I haven't said what kind of vegetarian I am. I may have advised

others on some stuff but that doesn't necessarily mean I follow that.

Nobody knows my dietary habits, and won't ever on this list.

 

I have said and I repeat, we have to do the best we can, we have to

start somewhere. All of what you say above isn't true anyway and you

very well know it. As is indicated by other's posts on this list. If

they have a problem with meat, imagine the problem with eggs, milk and

cheese. Good luck! or are you of the abdicating but lecturing type?

 

You are so inconsistant vacillating between hesitancy and indecision,

one day a Vndist the next a Sakti worshipper. When you figure out

which way you are coming from, I will talk to you....ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

You are the sarcastic ponce that first had a go at me, and set the

game on this list. More fool me to listen to a fool like you.

Hi Ho Jan....do ya mean this crash on the highway?

I looked up 'ponce' in the dictionary..

Only thing I could find the name of a sea port in Puerto Rico.

Maybe he meant 'pounce'...

I think this list could be called,

"Almost At The End of The Rope".

Is the movie almost over?

I've run out of popcorn.

Love

Vndistji

[Guest guest]

, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote:

>

> You are the sarcastic ponce that first had a go at me, and set the

> game on this list. More fool me to listen to a fool like you.

>

> Hi Ho Jan....do ya mean this crash on the highway?

> I looked up 'ponce' in the dictionary..

> Only thing I could find the name of a sea port in Puerto Rico.

> Maybe he meant 'pounce'...

>

> I think this list could be called,

>

> "Almost At The End of The Rope".

> Is the movie almost over?

> I've run out of popcorn.

>

> Love

> Vndistji

 

Namaste Joyce.

 

Ponce= British and Australian for a pompous effeminate self absorbed

superior supercilious 'person', a humorous remark!!

 

By the way you can not be a Vndist if you are a Buddhist, they are

incompatible.....ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

I like that - Vndistji!

 

 

At 05:09 PM 6/22/01 -0400, Joyce Short wrote:

>>>>

 

You are the sarcastic ponce that first had a go at me, and set the

game on this list. More fool me to listen to a fool like you.

 

Hi Ho Jan....do ya mean this crash on the highway?

I looked up 'ponce' in the dictionary..

Only thing I could find the name of a sea port in Puerto Rico.

Maybe he meant 'pounce'...

 

I think this list could be called,

 

"Almost At The End of The Rope".

Is the movie almost over?

I've run out of popcorn.

 

Love

Vndistji

[Guest guest]

On 6/22/01 at 9:01 PM Tony O'Clery wrote:

 

º, "jb" <janb@a...> wrote:

º> On 6/22/01 at 4:48 PM Tony O'Clery wrote:

º>

º> [...]ºNamaste All,

º> º

º> [...]

º> ºIt still boils down to Ramana saying, 'vegetarianism is absolutely

º> ºnecessary for any kind of yoga'. I think I have exhaustedly

ºexplained

º> ºwhy, again and again and again. Ahimsa, Vibrations, and withdrawal

ºof

º> ºthe senses from attachments and addictions.

º> [...]

º>

º> Now that could be called either a childish perspective, sheer

ºignorance

º> or another quote out of context. One example regarding milk:

º> Large scale milk production is impossible without killing calves.

º> As all mammals have emotions and the mother-child relationship is

ºone of

º> the strongest, consider the suffering involved...

º> Ovo-lacto vegetarianism and Ahimsa? Thanks for the laugh!

º> Still using dairy products Tony, while lecturing list-members on

ºAhimsa?

º> That makes it a mere intellectual exercise and not a very good one -

º> guess what it does 'karmically', considering 'ignorance is no

ºexcuse'...

º>

º> Joy and Light,

º> Jan

º

ºNamaste Jan,

º

ºYou are the sarcastic ponce that first had a go at me, and set the

ºgame on this list. More fool me to listen to a fool like you.

 

Thanks for laugh, "bad" karma accumulator...

º

º I haven't said what kind of vegetarian I am. I may have advised

ºothers on some stuff but that doesn't necessarily mean I follow that.

ºNobody knows my dietary habits, and won't ever on this list.

º

So you are but intellectualizing - while accusing others of that...

"bad" karma accumulator...

 

 

ºI have said and I repeat, we have to do the best we can, we have to

ºstart somewhere. All of what you say above isn't true anyway and you

ºvery well know it. As is indicated by other's posts on this list. If

ºthey have a problem with meat, imagine the problem with eggs, milk and

ºcheese. Good luck! or are you of the abdicating but lecturing type?

 

Now that is a lousy excuse -the best never is good enough!

As a fruitarian, I could laugh at anyone in this respect.

And regarding literal leisure, the same, grandpa.

º

ºYou are so inconsistant vacillating between hesitancy and indecision,

ºone day a Vndist the next a Sakti worshipper. When you figure out

ºwhich way you are coming from, I will talk to you....ONS...Tony.

 

So you are but intellectualizing - while accusing others of that...

"bad" karma accumulator...

I don't want to talk to you grandpa - even if you would pay for it

Just a good laugh over observed inconsistency and parroting (automatisms)

- is that clear enough even for an Irishman?

 

Joy and Light,

Jan

[Guest guest]

On 6/22/01 at 5:09 PM Joyce Short wrote:

You are the sarcastic ponce that first had a go at me, and set the

game on this list. More fool me to listen to a fool like you. Hi Ho

Jan....do ya mean this crash on the highway? I looked up 'ponce' in

the dictionary..Only thing I could find the name of a sea port in

Puerto Rico.Maybe he meant 'pounce'...

Who knows what he meant?

Error! Not available in quote or from scriptures. Error! System overload...

Error! No memory for spell check

I think this list could be called,"Almost At The End of The Rope". Is

the movie almost over?I've run out of popcorn.

 

With the best fig-harvest in years,

you could join the party here

Love,

Jan

LoveVndistji

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

 

Another call for definitions of your terms!

 

In a previous message, you said:

 

(1) For if a Vdnist does no spiritual practice and

is still a prisoner of the senses, except for

sterile intellectual roundabouts, then they

truly are Nastikas.

 

(seems like you're focussing on the non-practice here). But in the message

I am immediately replying to, you say:

 

(2) By the way you can not be a Vndist if you are

a Buddhist, they are incompatible.

 

Seems like you are focussing again on the practice issue. But what about

your "atheist" definition, which is the dictionary definition of "nastika."

According to most orthodox Vedantins, both advaitist and

vishishta-advaitist, Buddhists are the *prime* example of modern Nastikas.

For the simple reason that Buddhists do not believe in a divine personal

god or Isvara figure.

 

What about the Buddhist who has taken formal refuge, taken the precepts,

finds it easy to not break the precepts, but (i) does not practice, and

(ii) does not believe in God? They are still a Nastika, and they might

even be a VND-ist too!

 

Love,

 

--Greg

[Guest guest]

Maybe except for breatharians....

 

At 10:21 PM 6/22/01 +0100, jb wrote:

>As a fruitarian, I could laugh at anyone in this respect.

>Jan

[Guest guest]

On 6/22/01 at 5:34 PM Greg Goode wrote:

 

ºMaybe except for breatharians....

 

Not before having taken one along on a hike in the mountains

and observing the efficiency of that diet

º

ºAt 10:21 PM 6/22/01 +0100, jb wrote:

º>As a fruitarian, I could laugh at anyone in this respect.

º>Jan

[Guest guest]

A friend of mine wanted to go to the training camp for breatharians, and

found out it is a 2-week thing, then longer, then longer. Occasionally one

must revert back to something more solid... Invite them at the right time

to your hike!!

 

At 10:45 PM 6/22/01 +0100, jb wrote:

>On 6/22/01 at 5:34 PM Greg Goode wrote:

>

>ºMaybe except for breatharians....

>

>Not before having taken one along on a hike in the mountains

>and observing the efficiency of that diet

>º

>ºAt 10:21 PM 6/22/01 +0100, jb wrote:

>º>As a fruitarian, I could laugh at anyone in this respect.

>º>Jan

[Guest guest]

On 6/22/01 at 5:57 PM Greg Goode wrote:

 

ºA friend of mine wanted to go to the training camp for breatharians, and

ºfound out it is a 2-week thing, then longer, then longer. Occasionally one

ºmust revert back to something more solid... Invite them at the right time

ºto your hike!!

 

Thanks for the laugh Greg - I thought so...

A friend even mentioned a commercial "smell"

about some breatharians

º

ºAt 10:45 PM 6/22/01 +0100, jb wrote:

º>On 6/22/01 at 5:34 PM Greg Goode wrote:

º>

º>ºMaybe except for breatharians....

º>

º>Not before having taken one along on a hike in the mountains

º>and observing the efficiency of that diet

º>º

º>ºAt 10:21 PM 6/22/01 +0100, jb wrote:

º>º>As a fruitarian, I could laugh at anyone in this respect.

º>º>Jan

º

º

º/join

º

º

º

º

º

ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present.

ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome

ºall to a.

º

º

º

ºYour use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Hey... is it OK with everyone not to be 'anything in particular',

just to BE? :-)

 

Hard to imagine anyone would have a problem with just BEing, just

existing :-). After all, it has to be the one commonality everyone

on the list shares.

 

Also the basic commonality shared with fish, polar bears and all

other creatures too :-).

 

One could call it 'life energy' or "I Am ness" -- and it could be

said " " is beyond that and yet not apart from it.

 

So just to BE, without any thoughts arising (or if they do, they just

arise and fall again immediately)... is that "Vndism" too? <laugh>.

 

Namaste,

 

Omkara

 

, Greg Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> Hi Tony,

>

> Another call for definitions of your terms!

>

> In a previous message, you said:

>

> (1) For if a Vdnist does no spiritual practice and

> is still a prisoner of the senses, except for

> sterile intellectual roundabouts, then they

> truly are Nastikas.

>

> (seems like you're focussing on the non-practice here). But in the

message

> I am immediately replying to, you say:

>

> (2) By the way you can not be a Vndist if you are

> a Buddhist, they are incompatible.

>

> Seems like you are focussing again on the practice issue. But what

about

> your "atheist" definition, which is the dictionary definition

of "nastika."

> According to most orthodox Vedantins, both advaitist and

> vishishta-advaitist, Buddhists are the *prime* example of modern

Nastikas.

> For the simple reason that Buddhists do not believe in a divine

personal

> god or Isvara figure.

>

> What about the Buddhist who has taken formal refuge, taken the

precepts,

> finds it easy to not break the precepts, but (i) does not practice,

and

> (ii) does not believe in God? They are still a Nastika, and they

might

> even be a VND-ist too!

>

> Love,

>

> --Greg