Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 Wim: UG is a motivating force for my practice. I want to prove him wrong about not being able to control one's thoughts and realize that there is no person. Hmm...perhaps you are being ironic, haven't had my coffee yet... Controlling thoughts, if that is what you really meant, is about as possible and necessary to do as controlling the clouds in the sky. Concentration will take mind into the jhanas, very useful, but will not bring full insight into the actuality that there is no thinker and no practitioner, no doer, no seer, no one smelling or tasting anything, no one tied to sensations of pleasure pain or neutral feeling. When the faculty of mind, investigation, looks fully into the nature of thought, then clear comprehension, deep insight occurs. Mind realizes that there is nothing at all to cling to and thus lets go...thoughts are not 'my' thoughts. Obviously, only 'mind' can realize 'there is no person' since there is no person to realize there is no person. And, of course, any 'person', any mind can have full insight into the true nature of thinsg occur at any time, this is more likely to occur in a deeply relaxed non striving mind than one that is trying to control anything. This full insight will never be thought of as 'mine'. There will be no reflective thinking at all occurring anymore. Just a few uncontrollable thoughts..... Love Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 Hi Joyce: Just a few uncontrollable thoughts from me too. What I meant by "controlling ones thoughts" is to do the work of developing the mind muscle to attain steel trap mindfulness. IMO, no way will you get up to the Moksha door or through it, unless you can put your attention on your attention completely, or if you are a bhakii have it filled up to the brim with love. That means being mindful of when it is not or when it is wandering. As far as the sound goes, it just the universal sound that is the underpinnings of the whole creation. On the various planes it has a seeningly different appearance but it the same. I am not talking from personal experience yet, so give no credence to what I am offering. Love and Hate are one, Alton, a would be non-dualist , "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: > > > Wim: UG is a motivating force for my practice. I want to prove him > wrong about not being able to control one's thoughts and realize that > there is no person. > > Hmm...perhaps you are being ironic, haven't had my coffee yet... > > Controlling thoughts, if that is what you really meant, is about as possible > and necessary to do as controlling the clouds in the sky. Concentration will > take mind into the jhanas, very useful, but will not bring full insight into > the actuality that there is no thinker and no practitioner, no doer, no > seer, no one smelling or tasting anything, no one tied to sensations of > pleasure pain or neutral feeling. When the faculty of mind, investigation, > looks fully into the nature of thought, then clear comprehension, deep > insight occurs. Mind realizes that there is nothing at all to cling to and > thus lets go...thoughts are not 'my' thoughts. Obviously, only 'mind' can > realize 'there is no person' since there is no person to realize there is no > person. > > And, of course, any 'person', any mind can have full insight into the true > nature of thinsg occur at any time, this is more likely to occur in a deeply > relaxed non striving mind than one that is trying to control anything. This > full insight will never be thought of as 'mine'. There will be no reflective > thinking at all occurring anymore. > > Just a few uncontrollable thoughts..... > > Love > Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 Dear Alton, Just to get me away from underneath this discussion about 'thought and mind', or 'thought and / or mindcontrol', none of those words are in my vocabulary with the standard meanings. My view on mind and thought do not fit well into traditional deliberations on this. I will never use the words: "I think" or variations of that expression. My use of such expressions started to diminish about five years ago, until they disappeared completely from my personal vocabulary. When I notice those words used, I cannot do but chuckle with gentle humour... There maybe some energetic activity going on in (?) us (?) which is usually defined as thinking and which is usually located in the head, but what that activity actually really is, it is definitely different from the way we usually conceive or define it. Whatever understanding we fabricate around that energetic activity in our body, it is conceptional. Whatever it is, it is a mysterious and miraculous something that we under-estimate greatly and quite likely abuse and under-use. > Love and Hate are one, There are no opposites! Whatever the sentence above is supposed to mean, again it makes me chuckle gently with kind humour. Love is Reality in Bliss. Hate is an illusion that we attribute reality to, a conceptual reality that only illusively exists. Hatred, anger, sadness, suffering, are energetic states that mis-appreciated and labeled inappropriately. Physical pain happens by different reasons, having nothing to do with the above concepts. Death does not even exist, that is why it is called death... The individual who is the subject of 'something that is usually called death' does not experience such.... 'Death' is only something with certain characteristics that a "non participating onlooker" observes, an individual who 'objectively' tries to get a handle on it... Nobody can speak for death, those that do are apparently not subject to it except in an indirect way. The whole discussion about 'death and food absorption' is based on (1) fear for the unknown..., (2) 'unreasonable fear', (3) the unknown by itself. There is no death... death is not experienced by the entity undergoing some sort of phase change. > From the unreal lead to the real, > from darkness lead me to light, > from death, lead me to immortality. Evaporate the conceptual and reclaim reality... Amrita, ambrosia, nectar, elixir, soma, the ejaculate of the eternal. Love is Reality in Bliss, Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 Win: Thanks for you knowledge and insight. Wim wrote:"I will never use the words: "I think" or variations of that expression. My use of such expressions started to diminish about five years ago, until they disappeared completely from my personal vocabulary". OK. I will now use "we think", or "we will" never use the words. Thanks in retreat, which I hope to go on after the landlord installs new carpeting here. Then I hope that I dont go online until I get at least 6 hours of "we" watching thoughts like traffic going by. Aloha with love, Alton , "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote: > Dear Alton, > > Just to get me away from underneath this discussion about 'thought and > mind', or 'thought and / or mindcontrol', none of those words are in my > vocabulary with the standard meanings. My view on mind and thought do > not fit well into traditional deliberations on this. > > I will never use the words: "I think" or variations of that expression. > My use of such expressions started to diminish about five years ago, > until they disappeared completely from my personal vocabulary. > > When I notice those words used, I cannot do but chuckle with gentle > humour... > > There maybe some energetic activity going on in (?) us (?) which is > usually defined as thinking and which is usually located in the head, > but what that activity actually really is, it is definitely different > from the way we usually conceive or define it. > > Whatever understanding we fabricate around that energetic activity in > our body, it is conceptional. > > Whatever it is, it is a mysterious and miraculous something that we > under-estimate greatly and quite likely abuse and under-use. > > > Love and Hate are one, > > There are no opposites! > Whatever the sentence above is supposed to mean, again it makes me > chuckle gently with kind humour. > > Love is Reality in Bliss. > > Hate is an illusion that we attribute reality to, a conceptual reality > that only illusively exists. > Hatred, anger, sadness, suffering, are energetic states that > mis-appreciated and labeled inappropriately. > Physical pain happens by different reasons, having nothing to do with > the above concepts. > Death does not even exist, that is why it is called death... > The individual who is the subject of 'something that is usually called > death' does not experience such.... 'Death' is only something with > certain characteristics that a "non participating onlooker" observes, an > individual who 'objectively' tries to get a handle on it... > Nobody can speak for death, those that do are apparently not subject to > it except in an indirect way. > > The whole discussion about 'death and food absorption' is based on (1) > fear for the unknown..., (2) 'unreasonable fear', (3) the unknown by > itself. > There is no death... death is not experienced by the entity undergoing > some sort of phase change. > > > From the unreal lead to the real, > > from darkness lead me to light, > > from death, lead me to immortality. > > Evaporate the conceptual and reclaim reality... > Amrita, ambrosia, nectar, elixir, soma, the ejaculate of the eternal. > > Love is Reality in Bliss, Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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