Bruce-Viorica, I disagree with Balsekar

[Guest guest]

Hi Omkara,

 

I disagree with this. While I can't speak to a dog's ability to forsee

death or whether they suffer from fear of death, I do think it's clear

that a dog who for whatever reason, whether it be naughtiness, anger

over neglect, or inability to hold it in, takes a crap on the carpet,

can forsee his human coming home and making a big fuss over it, and

expresses that in fearful body language. We have a considerable common

language with animals, it's just not verbal. I think body language can

tell us a lot. Clearly, as certain body language elements are different

from human society to human society, we need to be cautious about

interpretations, but there seem to be some fundamental "phrases" that

are pretty universal amongst higher vertebrates. I think dogs not only

exhibit fear, but do so from a solid ability to project the future.

(perhaps we have taught them that in the domestication process, I don't

know.) Both dogs and cats act on their ability to forsee the future to

initiate and carry out planning. I know Mary's cats have a variety of

strategies for getting fed.

 

It seems likely that 'other species' don't have this

"ability" (to

project a 'future') and so do not suffer from fear of

death.

 

Love, Mark

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:15:06 -0400 "Mark W. Otter"

<mark.otter writes:

> Hi Omkara,

>

> I disagree with this. While I can't speak to a dog's ability to

> forsee

> death or whether they suffer from fear of death, I do think it's

> clear

> that a dog who for whatever reason, whether it be naughtiness,

> anger

> over neglect, or inability to hold it in, takes a crap on the

> carpet,

> can forsee his human coming home and making a big fuss over it, and

> expresses that in fearful body language.

 

Ah, but it does this foreseeing

based on direct experience, and

there's no argument over an

ability to learn in this way.

Human fear of death is based on

an attempt to imagine the

unimaginable, not on direct

experience of death!

 

> We have a considerable common

> language with animals, it's just not verbal. I think body language

> can tell us a lot. Clearly, as certain body language elements are

> different

> from human society to human society, we need to be cautious about

> interpretations, but there seem to be some fundamental "phrases"

> that

> are pretty universal amongst higher vertebrates. I think dogs not

> only

> exhibit fear, but do so from a solid ability to project the future.

> (perhaps we have taught them that in the domestication process, I

> don't know.)

 

No, canines in the wild

exhibit learned behaviors,

which by definition

require application of

memories (stored data) to

recognized similar

situation. That's not at

issue here, imo.

> Both dogs and cats act on their ability to forsee the future to

> initiate and carry out planning. I know Mary's cats have a variety

> of strategies for getting fed.

>

> It seems likely that 'other species' don't have

> this "ability" (to

> project a 'future') and so do not suffer from fear

> of death.

 

I reiterate, higher mammals

can project based on actual

experience -- I'd say they

fear physical pain (including

hunger) on that basis, but

there is no experiential

basis to fear physical death,

that imo requires a powerful

conscious imagination that

isn't evident in non-humans.

>

> Love, Mark

>

Thanks for sharing your

observations, Mark.

 

bcnu -- Bruce

 

 

http://come.to/realization

http://www.atman.net/realization

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

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