Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 This is my view in a nutshell. If one cannot control their behavor and therapy is not helping, then that is the right intervention to go on meds. Otherwise it is counter productive in my view. Love, Alton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:51:01 -0000 "COMO KASHA" <lostnfoundation writes: > This is my view in a nutshell. Interesting word choice! :-) > If one cannot control their behavor and Depression isn't really about behavior (although behavior is generally affected, often severely), it is about a certain crippling type of perceptual lens. > therapy is not helping, Talk therapy is largely ineffective for depression, always has been. > then > that is the right intervention to go on meds. Then, given an accurate diagnosis, most anti- depressant prescriptions comprise "right intervention." > Otherwise it is counter > productive in my view. > I think you've taken a very sensible stance on the issue. http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 Hi Bruce: "Talk therapy is largely ineffective for depression, always has been." If depends on who you are talking to and what system the recipient is useing to alievate the symtoms. The person who is depressed must have the desire to rid themselves of their depression, and be able to be earnest in following the right course for themselves.. Aloha, Alton , Bruce Morgen <editor@j...> wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:51:01 -0000 "COMO KASHA" > <lostnfoundation> writes: > > > This is my view in a nutshell. > > Interesting word choice! > :-) > > > If one cannot control their behavor and > > Depression isn't really about > behavior (although behavior > is generally affected, often > severely), it is about a > certain crippling type of > perceptual lens. > > > therapy is not helping, > > Talk therapy is largely > ineffective for depression, > always has been. > > > then > > that is the right intervention to go on meds. > > Then, given an accurate > diagnosis, most anti- > depressant prescriptions > comprise "right intervention." > > > Otherwise it is counter > > productive in my view. > > > I think you've taken a very > sensible stance on the issue. > > > > http://come.to/realization > http://www.atman.net/realization > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm > ______________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:57:12 -0000 "COMO KASHA" <lostnfoundation writes: > > > > Hi Bruce: > > "Talk therapy is largely > ineffective for depression, > always has been." > > If depends on who you are talking to and what system the recipient > is > useing to alievate the symtoms. The person who is depressed must > have > the desire to rid themselves of their depression, and be able to be > earnest in following the right course for themselves.. No offense, but that is BS. Most honest therapists will admit, based on experience and despite their training to the contrary, that there is no effective talk therapy for accurately diagnosed clinical depression, regardless of how motivated and determined the patient might be. The consensus in the profession is that clinical depression is a physical ailment with psychogical consquences and not a neurosis or psychosis amenable to analysis. This doesn't mean that therapy or counseling can't be helpful as an adjunct to carefully prescribed drugs, or that it isn't a good idea to attempt a non- pharmaceutical remedy first, but it is *not* a good idea to approach this *very* serious health problem with a bunch of preconceptions amounting to "drugs=bad, talk=better." http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm > > Aloha, > Alton > > > > > , Bruce Morgen <editor@j...> wrote: > > > > On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:51:01 -0000 "COMO KASHA" > > <lostnfoundation> writes: > > > > > This is my view in a nutshell. > > > > Interesting word choice! > > :-) > > > > > If one cannot control their behavor and > > > > Depression isn't really about > > behavior (although behavior > > is generally affected, often > > severely), it is about a > > certain crippling type of > > perceptual lens. > > > > > therapy is not helping, > > > > Talk therapy is largely > > ineffective for depression, > > always has been. > > > > > then > > > that is the right intervention to go on meds. > > > > Then, given an accurate > > diagnosis, most anti- > > depressant prescriptions > > comprise "right intervention." > > > > > Otherwise it is counter > > > productive in my view. > > > > > I think you've taken a very > > sensible stance on the issue. > > > > > > > > http://come.to/realization > > http://www.atman.net/realization > > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm > > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm > > ______________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > oup//join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of > the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is > always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know > the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee > relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from > within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 Dear Bruce: I have $1000 waiting for you. You send me someone who is clinically depressed and I will give them a full program. That will include diet, exercise and intense alternative therapy by me, yours truly. They must not have hallucinations or hear voices talking to them and they must not be the type that acts out. They must have a desire to get rid of their condition and be willing to carry out the program as I direct. Within 5 months they will be free of their condition or I give you the $1000. I do this free of charge. This takes a full committment and not many who are depressed are willing. That is why they are stuck with it. Love, Alton , Bruce Morgen <editor@j...> wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:57:12 -0000 "COMO KASHA" > <lostnfoundation> writes: > > > > > > > > Hi Bruce: > > > > "Talk therapy is largely > > ineffective for depression, > > always has been." > > > > If depends on who you are talking to and what system the recipient > > is > > useing to alievate the symtoms. The person who is depressed must > > have > > the desire to rid themselves of their depression, and be able to be > > earnest in following the right course for themselves.. > > No offense, but that is BS. > Most honest therapists will > admit, based on experience > and despite their training > to the contrary, that there > is no effective talk therapy > for accurately diagnosed > clinical depression, > regardless of how motivated > and determined the patient > might be. The consensus in > the profession is that > clinical depression is a > physical ailment with > psychogical consquences and > not a neurosis or psychosis > amenable to analysis. > > This doesn't mean that > therapy or counseling can't > be helpful as an adjunct to > carefully prescribed drugs, > or that it isn't a good idea > to attempt a non- > pharmaceutical remedy first, > but it is *not* a good idea > to approach this *very* > serious health problem with > a bunch of preconceptions > amounting to "drugs=bad, > talk=better." > > > http://come.to/realization > http://www.atman.net/realization > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm > > > > > Aloha, > > Alton > > > > > > > > > > , Bruce Morgen <editor@j...> wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:51:01 -0000 "COMO KASHA" > > > <lostnfoundation> writes: > > > > > > > This is my view in a nutshell. > > > > > > Interesting word choice! > > > :-) > > > > > > > If one cannot control their behavor and > > > > > > Depression isn't really about > > > behavior (although behavior > > > is generally affected, often > > > severely), it is about a > > > certain crippling type of > > > perceptual lens. > > > > > > > therapy is not helping, > > > > > > Talk therapy is largely > > > ineffective for depression, > > > always has been. > > > > > > > then > > > > that is the right intervention to go on meds. > > > > > > Then, given an accurate > > > diagnosis, most anti- > > > depressant prescriptions > > > comprise "right intervention." > > > > > > > Otherwise it is counter > > > > productive in my view. > > > > > > > I think you've taken a very > > > sensible stance on the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://come.to/realization > > > http://www.atman.net/realization > > > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm > > > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm > > > ______________ > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > > > oup//join > > > > > > > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of > > the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is > > always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know > > the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee > > relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from > > within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > ______________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:15:03 -0000 "COMO KASHA" <lostnfoundation writes: > > > > Dear Bruce: > > I have $1000 waiting for you. You send me someone who is clinically > depressed and I will give them a full program. That will include > diet, exercise and intense alternative therapy by me, yours truly. > They must not have hallucinations or hear voices talking to them and > they must not be the type that acts out. They must have a desire to > get rid of their condition and be willing to carry out the program > as > I direct. Within 5 months they will be free of their condition or I > give you the $1000. I do this free of charge. This takes a full > committment and not many who are depressed are willing. See below -- depressed folks are generally more than not "willing," the are usually and literally not *able* to commit to such a program. Many of them can barely get out of bed or leave their homes without tremendous effort on the part of their love one(s)! > That is why > they are stuck with it. Depressed people don't need to be judged, they need help based on who and where they are in the context of their ailment. > [snip] Sorry, transportation costs make this wager impractical. Most depressed folks are looking for relief from an illness, not an imposed lifestyle change or five months of "treatment" by a well-intentioned amateur. Moreover, accurately diagnosed clinical depression more often than not precludes the sort of scenario you propose -- one of its most common symptoms is an incapacity for self- motivation. Again, no offense, but I get the distinct impression that you are unfamiliar with what accurately diagnosed clinical depression is really like and how ineffective therapy -- including the "alternative" and/or "wholistic" variety -- is in the vast majority of cases. http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 Hi: I've had experience with depression and clinical depression. For myself a holistic approach of yoga, meditation, food and herbs worked....probably because I was simply depressed from years of dealing with loved ones who were clinically depressed. For my daughter meds were very necessary as the depression was part of a much larger picture and she simply did not have the motivation, energy or sense to approach any type of life style change. The problem that I have is that no one is addressing the glandular root causes and they are working only on the brain functions. It is a great improvement. I do not believe that diet, exercise and meditation are ever going to be enough for her...however, I also believe that an aggressive approach by a qualified professional to bring the entire system into balance would make a difference. My choice would most likely be Chinese medicine which would also involve acupuncture along with their herbal remedies. However, those trained in this system have as much training as western trained doctors and I believe that their medicine is just as strong. In other words for my daughter and others who are greatly imbalanced St. Johns Wort is just not the answer anymore than telling someone who has the vessels of their heart closed to stop eating fatty foods is an answer. Linda >Depressed people don't need >to be judged, they need >help based on who and where >they are in the context of >their ailment.>>Again, no offense, but I get >the distinct impression that >you are unfamiliar with what >accurately diagnosed >clinical depression is >really like and how >ineffective therapy -- >including the "alternative" >and/or "wholistic" variety >-- is in the vast majority >of cases.http://come.to/realizationhttp://www.atman.net/realizationhttp://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htmhttp://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm______________GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj./join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 Dear Bruce and Alton, > "Talk therapy is largely > ineffective for depression, I find talk therapy important for the fact that the listener (male and female nurses can be so effective with this) is to be non-questioning, not second guessing..., non judging. There has to be abundant time... always... The listener needs to want to understand the talker. The listener needs to make the talker aware that the listener would like to gain insight... The depressed person is not necessarily looking for agreement... The depressed person already knows well enough that agreement if it seems to be there will be withheld or used for manipulative reasons To find a listener willing to hear you is the first step in discovering the possibility of unconditional companionship. Love, Wim PS. I love the wisdom and kindness in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 In fact Alton, I have done the same (as you suggest) with two clients, luckily I did not have to come up with a $1000 when done or not done :-) Five months is a short time though... take plenty of time... You have to be willing to be killed though... which will not happen anyway... Full commitment from you, unconditional love... I didn't care if the client was committed or not, they sometimes are... they sometimes are not... that is the very problem... One cannot make a living this way though... If you are married your relationship has to be unshakable... of course that is no problem where love is unconditional... I'm not joking here, happy nevertheless... Love, You'll never run out of that, there is always more where it comes from. Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 Wim: realize I have stong opinions of this subject and that I may have taken up too much space and time here, so after this post I wont bring up the subject for a while, unless someone addresses me in particular. If someone is in pain and needs the meds, and they dont have the wherewithal and time and money to seek alternative healings, then that is the right course for them at that time. Just remember that many psychiatrists were the same ones pushing prefontal lobotomies and indiscrimate use of tranquilizers, and shock treatment. How many parents have been accused of sexual abuse and satanic rituals with their offspring. Now some psychiatrists are being sued successfully by those with the so called recovered memory syndrome. The book " The Lives of Cell" elaborates the fact that the medicines cause what they proport to cure. I wish I saved the article, I think in the NY Times, on the possible and real side effect of anti-depressants meds, and the fact that larger and larger doses are needed. I take an allegy nasel spay once or twice per week, because I cannot meditate without sneezing. I was able to cure it by diet in former years but now that I am older my only option is that intervention. So I am not that pure either. Loving you loving me loving you and all of creation. Alton , "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote: > Dear Bruce and Alton, > > > "Talk therapy is largely > > ineffective for depression, > > I find talk therapy important for the fact that the listener (male and > female nurses can be so effective with this) is to be non- questioning, > not second guessing..., non judging. > There has to be abundant time... always... > The listener needs to want to understand the talker. The listener needs > to make the talker aware that the listener would like to gain insight... > The depressed person is not necessarily looking for agreement... > The depressed person already knows well enough that agreement if it > seems to be there will be withheld or used for manipulative reasons > To find a listener willing to hear you is the first step in discovering > the possibility of unconditional companionship. > > Love, Wim > > PS. > I love the wisdom and kindness in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 Dear Alton, > I take an allegy nasel spay (sic) once or twice per week Is you cat spayed as well?... ... ... Still laughing, I'm sorry Alton, I could not resist. You have a sense of humor, yes? > because I cannot meditate without sneezing. Sneezing, can you tell me what your position is in meditation? There are nerves running straight from the anal and sacral area to the nose. Under certain circumstances sneezing is a normal "abnormal" response when men are in certain stretched positions around the underbelly or... after climaxing orgasmically. Serious! :-) It is complex, it may have to do with body ecstasy. There was a pope who suffered greatly from this (Pius XII I believe). You are in good company, I used to have the same... it stopped when my various afflictions stopped... still laughing... still seriously happy .... no kidding... Oh Alton, life is good, especially when the body plays its tricks on us, way easier to handle than tricky people... Hey guys, I was actually serious in my post a few mailings back, about the fact that this group is about realizers having a joyfully hard time dealing with the prospective realized... Ah, the problem of not being recognized realized by one's peers... It is a good problem to have, what luxury... The only one realized is you.... Thing is, not to get caught when at play... They :-) will tell on you... Love, Wim Be daring... realize... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 Dear Wim: I am a little dyslexic and I have to try real hard to post here but sometimes I screw up like with spay instead of spray. Ha HA. I used to sit in full lotus and half lotus but I was doing a yoga position even when I ate meals and it affected my knee. It is ok now but I wont chance it,so I sit in a comfortable chair. I usually dont lean back. I have to dress real warm and even wear a ski hat, but it works fine now.. I had terrible allergies since I was A child and was on anti-histamines for 18 years and I went off them cold turkey when we got into diet and seeking. The withdrawal effects took a year or more of discharging. Living here in Hawaii thins ones blood and expecially because we are on a very low fat diet. So, we are very sensitive to temperature changes and wind blowing. Its fine now with the steroid spray. I realized that I am conditioning this body to be dependant on it next lifetime, however I believe that tranformation to the absolute state is possible for me if the doors keep opening. Thanks for your suggestions and any other ones you may supply to me or the denizens on the medium. Loving you and loving those who hate or love, Alton , "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote: > Dear Alton, > > > I take an allegy nasel spay (sic) once or twice per week > > Is you cat spayed as well?... ... ... Still laughing, I'm sorry Alton, I > could not resist. > You have a sense of humor, yes? > > > because I cannot meditate without sneezing. > > Sneezing, can you tell me what your position is in meditation? > There are nerves running straight from the anal and sacral area to the > nose. Under certain circumstances sneezing is a normal "abnormal" > response when men are in certain stretched positions around the > underbelly or... after climaxing orgasmically. Serious! :-) It is > complex, it may have to do with body ecstasy. There was a pope who > suffered greatly from this (Pius XII I believe). > > You are in good company, I used to have the same... it stopped when my > various afflictions stopped... still laughing... still seriously happy > ... no kidding... > > Oh Alton, life is good, especially when the body plays its tricks on us, > way easier to handle than tricky people... > > Hey guys, I was actually serious in my post a few mailings back, about > the fact that this group is about realizers having a joyfully hard time > dealing with the prospective realized... > Ah, the problem of not being recognized realized by one's peers... It is > a good problem to have, what luxury... > > The only one realized is you.... Thing is, not to get caught when at > play... They :-) will tell on you... > > Love, Wim > > Be daring... realize... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 While deciding whether or not to add something to this thread, an object fell from the table onto the keyboard and opened up a new message box for me. So I guess I will go with the flow. I usually lurk on this list, happy to learn from all of you. I feel like a happy baby these days, everything seems new, interesting, and wonderful. I read a lot, whatever I am drawn to, which is usually scripture or books on yoga philosophy. I am where I am now, in this blissful state, due in large part to the fact that I have bipolar disorder. I have it in a big way and I have suffered a lot. When I first was diagnosed, I was so sick all the time, and my body put me through this ordeal of either sleeping 22 hours a day or being awake 22 hours a day, with some respite in "normal" rhythms once in awhile. Once, after being sick for awhile, my doctor changed my meds and I woke up one morning and heard-stillness. Part of this illness was that I heard a roaring noise in my head all the time which at its worst was like trying to hold a conversation on a moving subway train. I say this because, before that happened, I didn't know what stillness or silence was. Asking me to seek it would have been like describing the desert to an eskimo. Meds made that possible. Synthetic sanity. It can be lifesaving until you can figure out how to find your own peace and sanity. I had increasing encounters with stillness until I could figure out how to do it without having to depend on medication, but that took a lot of time and discipline. The medication at its best showed me a lot of states that I had never experienced, both good and bad, but it was a learning experience. I know what it is like to have manic depressive psychosis, and see the world like Van Gogh did, which is not so charming while it is happening. When I was first diagnosed, I spent my "well" time, when I was able to comprehend the written word, studying neuropsychiatry. (While psychotic, I could not see well enough to read or concentrate enough to understand) I was looking for the scientific, western, accepted method, I thought it would give me a way to control things and find out "why". I realized science really doesn't know "why". The next phase was therapy, because I thought that understanding some of "how" i got there would help, which it did, but even more was being able to release emotions I was holding on to. Last few months to a year, I am on a new channel, not asking why, not asking how, not regretting what I lost or could not do or have. Rather than textbooks I read a few pages of the Gita or maybe the Dhammapada or something. Things I need to know simply fall into my lap and I take what I can get from them. I let go of who is right, who is wrong, who is irritating. I have been able to make major life changes and drop three of my drugs and still take some lithium as a result of this, but now I am not attached to even that, and if i get too sick i will accept the temporary addition of more meds if something else has not come along. Every wall is a bridge. You just have to change the perspective. This illness has been a wedge which moved me into a life I would never have had without. I am no longer tortured by what it did to me or what I lost. Both good and bad but surely I was left with no choice finally but to seek enlightenment whatever that is. Without meds, I would be dead without question. I still hope to one day be able to give it up, but I dont pine over this issue. However, I will say that the term bipolar is laughable to me now, I am not a disease anymore thanks to what I have learned and how I have changed. I doubt many people see things my way, see that, like everything else we get or have happen to us, this "disease" is actually a blessing if we choose to stop struggling and see it as such. Never meaning to trivialize the enormous suffering that I know is inflicted on us and that we inflict on others as a result of this disorder. I thank all of you for your wonderful posts which I read and enjoy. They are gifts to me. I love to learn from you. I would be happy to discuss this mental illness and medication issue further with anyone, since I guess it would be hard to surprise me, I think I make a good attentive ear. Thanks. Frances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2001 Report Share Posted June 28, 2001 Dear Frances, Thank you for all that you said. I also have bi-polar. It takes as much courage to come out of the closet with a severe mental illness, as it used to (or maybe still does) with being gay. One is met sometimes with such misinformed reactions by others. I have told about mine here before, so will skip most of the story. Since there are such differences in degree of severity of symptoms, even within a bi-polar diagnosis, you can't generalize about it without hearing someone's story tho. What strikes me the most is how balanced your assessment is now, with knowing the worst of your suffering and still finding value in your experience with it. This I can relate to very much. I am so glad to hear you are now doing better too, you sound really better than better! You know, I try to remember whenever this subject of medication comes up, that very likely most people discussing depression have never been so bad off they had to be hospitalized three times, nor seen a 22 year marriage end, nor lost a job under very humiliating circumstances, like me. Probably they don't know what psychosis or paranoia really feels like, either. I too have heard about how anti-depressants are being over-prescribed for the ordinary downs of life. I have also read that likely half those with real, clinical depression never seek any treatment. I'm sure that a lot could be improved thru natural means like diet and learning thru some therapy to cope differently with life. What is going to work best for each person is different, so avoiding blanket generalizations is wise. Since meds have given me back some semblance of a normal life, that is my bias. Frances, I hope you will write more often and share your valuable wisdom with us. We can all learn a lot from you. Love, Gloria - Cyclotheme (AT) aol (DOT) com Wednesday, June 27, 2001 11:00 PM Re: Re: More on Meds While deciding whether or not to add something to this thread, an object fell from the table onto the keyboard and opened up a new message box for me. So I guess I will go with the flow.I usually lurk on this list, happy to learn from all of you. I feel like a happy baby these days, everything seems new, interesting, and wonderful. I read a lot, whatever I am drawn to, which is usually scripture or books on yoga philosophy. I am where I am now, in this blissful state, due in large part to the fact that I have bipolar disorder. I have it in a big way and I have suffered a lot. When I first was diagnosed, I was so sick all the time, and my body put me through this ordeal of either sleeping 22 hours a day or being awake 22 hours a day, with some respite in "normal" rhythms once in awhile. Once, after being sick for awhile, my doctor changed my meds and I woke up one morning and heard-stillness. Part of this illness was that I heard a roaring noise in my head all the time which at its worst was like trying to hold a conversation on a moving subway train. I say this because, before that happened, I didn't know what stillness or silence was. Asking me to seek it would have been like describing the desert to an eskimo. Meds made that possible. Synthetic sanity. It can be lifesaving until you can figure out how to find your own peace and sanity. I had increasing encounters with stillness until I could figure out how to do it without having to depend on medication, but that took a lot of time and discipline. The medication at its best showed me a lot of states that I had never experienced, both good and bad, but it was a learning experience. I know what it is like to have manic depressive psychosis, and see the world like Van Gogh did, which is not so charming while it is happening. When I was first diagnosed, I spent my "well" time, when I was able to comprehend the written word, studying neuropsychiatry. (While psychotic, I could not see well enough to read or concentrate enough to understand) I was looking for the scientific, western, accepted method, I thought it would give me a way to control things and find out "why". I realized science really doesn't know "why". The next phase was therapy, because I thought that understanding some of "how" i got there would help, which it did, but even more was being able to release emotions I was holding on to. Last few months to a year, I am on a new channel, not asking why, not asking how, not regretting what I lost or could not do or have. Rather than textbooks I read a few pages of the Gita or maybe the Dhammapada or something. Things I need to know simply fall into my lap and I take what I can get from them. I let go of who is right, who is wrong, who is irritating. I have been able to make major life changes and drop three of my drugs and still take some lithium as a result of this, but now I am not attached to even that, and if i get too sick i will accept the temporary addition of more meds if something else has not come along. Every wall is a bridge. You just have to change the perspective. This illness has been a wedge which moved me into a life I would never have had without. I am no longer tortured by what it did to me or what I lost. Both good and bad but surely I was left with no choice finally but to seek enlightenment whatever that is. Without meds, I would be dead without question. I still hope to one day be able to give it up, but I dont pine over this issue. However, I will say that the term bipolar is laughable to me now, I am not a disease anymore thanks to what I have learned and how I have changed. I doubt many people see things my way, see that, like everything else we get or have happen to us, this "disease" is actually a blessing if we choose to stop struggling and see it as such. Never meaning to trivialize the enormous suffering that I know is inflicted on us and that we inflict on others as a result of this disorder. I thank all of you for your wonderful posts which I read and enjoy. They are gifts to me. I love to learn from you. I would be happy to discuss this mental illness and medication issue further with anyone, since I guess it would be hard to surprise me, I think I make a good attentive ear. Thanks. Frances/join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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