Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 Dear Jan, (In good humour, and if you are good at reading in between the lines you'll see the smileys, and if you are not good at reading in between the lines the smileys are still there You wrote: > Well, regarding problems, here, none are seen - > in the same sense that the issue of "I and you" > has become irrelevant. The irrelevant is irrelevant. Am I typing this to you now, at 12:45 AM PDT? Yes Are you reading this now, at ??:?? your local time? Yes "No" is even out of the question as QUESTIONS ABOUT you or me are indeed irrelevant , as you are unquestionably relevant to me at this moment, my local time, and I am unquestionably relevant to you at this your moment, your local time. (Stating it this way shows of course a limited scope of relevance, but for now that is all right.) When communicating, there can be no question about relevance. Relating is relevating (Relevate from the Latin "raise up" from a surface), relativity relevance. relative relevance We are relating We are relevant You are I am relating relativity relatives One of us, it does not matter who, cannot even not be. One of us, it does not matter who, cannot even not be relevant. > And more than that issue can move > into the realm of irrelevance Quick..., the smileys :) "Realm of irrelevance" is philosophically an utterly confused statement. Energy elements running around in mentally 'vicious dead-end circles' , the internal dialogue kind. ENERGY IS ISSING BEING BECOMING STUFF ACTION REACTION (not counter or anti-action) LIFE THE MIRACLE The conceptual IS NOT EVEN NOT, not even supposed to be. That's why it is conceptual. The conceptual is purely mental assumption, borrowing energy in a virtual, catalytic kind of way, which as imagination and inspiration would lead to constructive play and 'naive' bliss (Latin: ludere) whereas in illusion (from illudere, to mock or mock up) and delusion, it would lead to manipulative and 'adulterated' suffering. (By the way, 'pain' is sensorially *per*ceived, is real, endorphins and medication can handle that. Suffering' is mentally *con*ceived, is illusion, a mental sort of 'real', only coming to one's senses can handle that.) The conceptual IS NOT EVEN NOT, not even supposed to be, that's why it is conceptual. That's why we say, "if we assume that this is... then that would be... " We may use this conceptualizing faculty effectively as an extension to our senses (Avalokiteshvara suggests this mental faculty to be our the sixth sense) the faculty of our mind to categorize and catalogue data input and steer follow though actions. (Informatics and cybernetics.) Illusion occurs when we forget or are made to forget this "if-ability" and assign or are forced to assign an pseudo power of reality to our conceptionalizing faculty (originally a tool in our information gathering dynamics and the cybernetic dynamics of 'action-follow-through-action) an illusive power that clouds or obfuscates physical measurable realities (maya) and illusively confuses free and unfettered capturing of data, prevents clarity of data reception, and messes up the orderly cataloguing of data gathered through sensorial transmission and contact. This undue obfuscation usually turns the "nature of things" into a pseudo world in which reigns: confusion doubt fear insecurity threats curses suffering anger malice etc. just inefficiently spinning wheels digging in deeper in a quagmire of suffering > Which leaves but concepts - if there is a history in memory of > the issues, "transformed" from perceptual to conceptual... The "I am now here", the individual zero point in the multidimensional space time coordinates for any entity / thing is fully captured by our up to 5 or 6 senses. That such is possible is indeed a wonder of efficiency in economy, ecology and ecosophy. > No laughter - when the body can be fed through the shredder > without any sense of discomfort, what other remark than that > manifested life is conceptual? And that "perspective" can be > known before pain becomes a concept I do distinguish between the words pain and suffering more acutely than you do Jan, and in what I write I consistently keep those distinctions clear to prevent confusion. As I said pain is sensed physically and dealt with physically... Suffering is a mental disorder caused purposely by external manipulative power mongering through threats of conditional alluded punishment and promises of conditional tokens of approval. This illusive manipulation of conditions through conditional prerequisites is suffering, This suffering can be dissolved and resolved in unconditional love, First and foremost "coming to our senses" ensures successful self restoration, self reclamation, and self reintegration. Pain is perceived. Suffering is conceived. I do understand what you mean in your paragraph above, Jan. What you understand of what I write though, are you sure that I mean it the way you understand it? Well, can WE ever be sure of that if a certain generosity to understand might be amiss? So we be generous. > > Man, Jan... that was fun... > > (((-)) > For one still in rapture of the senses, perhaps... "rapture..." you've got that right. "...of the senses" I read unwarranted limiting qualifiers, Jan. I also read unwarranted limiting qualifiers in your use of the words "still" and "perhaps". A more generous approach in understanding would definitely celebrate our mutual and reciprocal relevancy. So we be generous. The following is only a well meant inquiry and your answer might well be "no": Are you perchance going through the 40 days in the desert...? Would you like to know what I mean by that? .... ... ... Yes, I am indeed pleading for and suggesting a full re-evaluation and positive re-appraisal of the human being, that is fully inclusive of the body, the senses and the mind (I see 7 distinctions in the human but for now covering these three, and still somewhat sketchy, should suffice). This differs or may differ, I have stated that to Vicki before, from some expressed views attributed to Ramana... whom (I hope and trust you accept my assurance) I do not intend to criticize. One: With the immense scope and universal reach of sensitivity of our senses, as they are 'telescopically' expanded and 'microscopically' intensified by grosser and finer reaches in refinement and resolution of scientific data gathering... Two: Aided by the growth of our inborn and combined individual mental intelligence, with the addition of 'human made' extra-somatic mental intelligence in the form of massive data storage, cataloguing, categorizing and superfast data analysis, enabling us to draw deductions and conclusions from complex interrelational data tables, deductions and conclusions which are revisited, recombined and redigested again so to speak through multiple passes of increasingly intricate logic..., One + Two: Supported and inspired by the outcome of all that, we can indeed come to the full realization of the irrelevance of the QUESTION of "Who am I?" to the clearest relevance and grandest evidence of "that I am, what all this is, all that I am." All inclusive ! That is the clue, that is the wonder no denial of physical reality anymore That we may so intimately know: from the individual human physically, creatively, volitionally, emotionally, vocationally, intelligently, inspirationally and spiritually to the divine ....from nothing wrong with nothing to everything right with all... > The discovery of a lifetime is that love and compassion are but a veil Yes, I got that Jan. Unconditional love being veiled Hold yourself now from comment lest you condition the unconditional Loving kindness and compassion though, tools of a bodhisattva, just a job, a function that one may take on in freedom... and one may leave in freedom... no sweat, no big deal. > Without a history of 'love and compassion', > that veil appears not to have existed - > in the same sense, that an "I" or a "you" never existed. > Hence statements like "life has no meaning". > And then, *free*, who cares about the properties of > what goes under "Shakti, Maya, creation" etc., > apart for the sake of argument... Yes, I got that Jan. > > What is, is. > > One perceives that with wonder (the meaning of MIRACLE) > > Ever looked at a child in wonderment? > What is that but a response - > when the veil causing it vanished, > so has that particular responsiveness. A response maybe a response, conceptually I read a limiting qualifier again Jan, in the words "what is that but" Ever looked at a child in wonderment? Wonder is Bliss is Glory is > I know very well what has been said - > as there is a history of "amrita" which is but history I got it about history, Jan unbut uh uh amrita is (as history is not) ah ah but > It is nice but there is a "better" I read a limiting qualifier again Jan, in the words "It is nice but there is a "better" > > > > 't is actually quite simple > > > > you wanit? > > > No need for whatever > > when youvgotit you donwanit > When there is a history of it, it can't be wanted That is exactly what I say in my vernacular We are sssoo good, Jan, so pretty close. to use a limiting qualifier Freedom, Jan Love, Wim Unconditional PS. All your gentle and generous smileys noted, responded to and returned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 Penelope, Contemplating her relevance... Attachment: (application/octet-stream) Penelope.jpg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 My Dearest Penelope: You sure are sweet and lovely. If anyone ever hurts you I will hire a voodoo practitioner to haunt them. Love, A former cat owner and lover who cant have any because of ASTHMA in this house. , Tim Gerchmez <coresite@h...> wrote: > > Penelope, > Contemplating her relevance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 So nice, kittens and cats... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:44:54 -0700 Tim Gerchmez <coresite writes: > > Penelope, > Contemplating her relevance... > She's a beaut, Tim. Isaiah (the surviving "catstrato") approves -- not that Penelope cares or should, of course! :-) http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 On 7/12/01 at 7:56 PM ALTON A ALTON wrote: ºMy Dearest Penelope: ºYou sure are sweet and lovely. ºIf anyone ever hurts you I will hire a voodoo practitioner to haunt ºthem. º ºLove, ºA former cat owner and lover who cant have any because of ASTHMA in ºthis house. Sorry to hear that Alton - my brother died of asthma but wasn't allergic to cats... His cat (Snuffie) was almost doglike, you could whistle and he would come immediately. Whoever felt sad, was visited by him for consolation. He never blamed anyone for being short tempered or having a bad mood either. A big cat, even feared by grown-ups.. And the local champion high speed flower bulb digging, often it was difficult not to die of laughter, seeing him "exercise" He was fearless and was reported to have "rescued" many steaks from loneliness, out of kitchens with open windows. Love, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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