Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 Dear Friends, My heart is still pounding and my knees are shaking. I am compelled to disregard my own advice against ahimsa in criticizing meat-eating, but not what is termed "usual" meat-eating to most. I just heard on the news a report about the breeding and raising of Saint Bernard dogs in China for food. As I look into the soulful eyes of my darling Juneau, I can only weep to think that these gentle, noble creatures are being harvested for food. "Look at that Face!" Majnun and Layla, rescue my heart from this breaking! The clip showed the dog slaughter house, the people shopping in dog meat markets. I can not stop weeping. To think they are breeding the beautiful Saint Bernard for the reason of the enormous weight of meat. Appalling beyond measure! These are the supreme tests for me to keep focused on whatever light I cannot find in this. I cannot find any light in this, no rhyme nor reason. There has got to be a better way to feed the hungry! Grow more fruit and vegetables, grow, my friends who eat dogs, more vegetables, more grains, more rice, more any plant. Look at that face! Look at that face! Look into the eyes of that gentle loyal soul, man's best friend. Heart-breaking Love, Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , sraddha54@h... wrote: > I just heard on > the news a report about the breeding and raising of Saint Bernard > dogs in China for food. As I look into the soulful eyes of my > darling > Juneau, I can only weep to think that these gentle, noble creatures > are being harvested for food. I see the same eyes in cows, pigs and chickens too. Who lies behind the eyes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , david.bozzi@n... wrote: > , sraddha54@h... wrote: > > I just heard on > > the news a report about the breeding and raising of Saint Bernard > > dogs in China for food. As I look into the soulful eyes of my > > darling > > Juneau, I can only weep to think that these gentle, noble creatures > > are being harvested for food. > > I see the same eyes in cows, pigs and chickens too. > Who lies behind the eyes? Dear David, Yes, I too see it in every animals eyes. There never was a time in all my life that I have not been surrounded by beautiful loving animals, from lizards to cows and everything in between. Inded, Who lies behind the eyes? Love, Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Dear Mazie, That story reminds of the issue "free Tibet" some years ago - by asking to boycott goods made in the PRC - the action failed.. In the meanwhile, another issue has been added, execution of prisoners for the sake of selling the body-parts for transplantation. And now, these dogs... Perhaps a new action could be started? That would raise another issue: Have dogs more "rights" than for instance cows, pigs or birds? Arguments like food inefficiency when it comes to raising animals for meat always have been disregarded, rain forests still are destroyed, replaced by meadows to raise cattle... Man is neither the intelligent nor the sensible creature it thinks to be - perhaps that is hard to accept, as it can't be changed on a global scale... Love, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Self. --- sraddha54 wrote: > , david.bozzi@n... wrote: > > , sraddha54@h... wrote: > > > I just heard on > > > the news a report about the breeding and raising > of Saint Bernard > > > dogs in China for food. As I look into the > soulful eyes of my > > > darling > > > Juneau, I can only weep to think that these > gentle, noble > creatures > > > are being harvested for food. > > > > I see the same eyes in cows, pigs and chickens > too. > > Who lies behind the eyes? > > Dear David, > > Yes, I too see it in every animals eyes. There never > was a time in > all my life that I have not been surrounded by > beautiful loving > animals, from lizards to cows and everything in > between. Inded, Who > lies behind the eyes? > > Love, > Mazie > > ===== Cognosce Te Ipsum Get personalized email addresses from Mail http://personal.mail./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Maybe this testimony will give we westerners some insight into how Hindus feel about the industrialized slaughter of cattle. Yet, the raising of our winsome fellow higher mammals for food has been been part of traditional cultures is Asia for tens of centuries, in the west we just exclude our favorite canines and felines from the carnage -- does that really make any difference? Thank you, Mazie. On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 02:25:34 -0000 sraddha54 writes: > Dear Friends, > > My heart is still pounding and my knees are shaking. I am compelled > > to disregard my own advice against ahimsa in criticizing > meat-eating, > but not what is termed "usual" meat-eating to most. I just heard on > > the news a report about the breeding and raising of Saint Bernard > dogs in China for food. As I look into the soulful eyes of my > darling > Juneau, I can only weep to think that these gentle, noble creatures > > are being harvested for food. "Look at that Face!" Majnun and > Layla, > rescue my heart from this breaking! The clip showed the dog > slaughter > house, the people shopping in dog meat markets. I can not stop > weeping. To think they are breeding the beautiful Saint Bernard for > > the reason of the enormous weight of meat. Appalling beyond > measure! > These are the supreme tests for me to keep focused on whatever light > > I cannot find in this. I cannot find any light in this, no rhyme nor > > reason. There has got to be a better way to feed the hungry! Grow > more fruit and vegetables, grow, my friends who eat dogs, more > vegetables, more grains, more rice, more any plant. Look at that > face! Look at that face! Look into the eyes of that gentle loyal > soul, man's best friend. > > Heart-breaking Love, > Mazie > http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , david.bozzi@n... wrote: > , sraddha54@h... wrote: > > I just heard on the news a report about the breeding and raising > > of Saint Bernard dogs in China for food. As I look into the > > soulful eyes of my darling Juneau, I can only weep to think that > > these gentle, noble creatures are being harvested for food. > > I see the same eyes in cows, pigs and chickens too. > Who lies behind the eyes? The three gunas (sorry to be so direct about it). It gets a little tiresome to see mere sentimentality constantly being confused with "morality" (although the two are really one and the same thing). In nature, there is no compassion; the lion brings down the deer without 'remorse' or 'pity' and eats it while alive and still screaming, drinking the warm blood. In the West, a distinction is made between "pet animals" and "food animals." Maybe the distinction is arbitrary, maybe not -- in a real sense, humans have created and shaped all "domesticated" animals through selective breeding. If desired, a case could be made: "eating meat is not cruel" -- but i won't bother. It's a 'choice' everyone can make at any time, but nobody has an option to force that on someone else. Maybe if a series of cartoons were made with pigs, cows and chickens (large, 'soulful' eyes and exaggerated cuteness), it would generate enough sentimental feelings among children (and some adults) so meat eating never would be taken up in the first place :-). Namaste, Omkara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Hi Mazie, i can understand... some years ago, there was a special on HBO about the eating of both cats and dogs in a few of the asian countries. It was a sickening thing to observe it, especially since the animals were not killed first, but directly taken and placed into boiling oil (for 20-30 seconds) and then immediately skinned and put into buckets of water (still alive). Clearly, this practice (as portrayed) is horrifying. At least in the West, the killing of animals is generally done in a manner without causing the animal much pain (usually none), although i am not "arguing for it" (or against it, for that matter). Whether there's a difference between cows, pigs, fish and -- cats, dogs and ferrets is not easy to say. Some would immediately say "no distinction," i would say perhaps there is (it has to do with selective breeding and some other factors, but most of all it has to do with 'the observer of it' -- 'that which makes distinctions'). Namaste, Omkara , sraddha54@h... wrote: > Dear Friends, > > My heart is still pounding and my knees are shaking. I am compelled > to disregard my own advice against ahimsa in criticizing meat- eating, > but not what is termed "usual" meat-eating to most. I just heard on > the news a report about the breeding and raising of Saint Bernard > dogs in China for food. As I look into the soulful eyes of my darling > Juneau, I can only weep to think that these gentle, noble creatures > are being harvested for food. "Look at that Face!" Majnun and Layla, > rescue my heart from this breaking! The clip showed the dog slaughter > house, the people shopping in dog meat markets. I can not stop > weeping. To think they are breeding the beautiful Saint Bernard for > the reason of the enormous weight of meat. Appalling beyond measure! > These are the supreme tests for me to keep focused on whatever light > I cannot find in this. I cannot find any light in this, no rhyme nor > reason. There has got to be a better way to feed the hungry! Grow > more fruit and vegetables, grow, my friends who eat dogs, more > vegetables, more grains, more rice, more any plant. Look at that > face! Look at that face! Look into the eyes of that gentle loyal > soul, man's best friend. > > Heart-breaking Love, > Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > , david.bozzi@n... wrote: > > I see the same eyes in cows, pigs and chickens too. > > Who lies behind the eyes? > > The three gunas (sorry to be so direct about it). You call that direct? > In the West, a distinction is made between "pet animals" and "food > animals." Maybe the distinction is arbitrary, maybe not The distinction is imaginary. > Maybe if a series of cartoons were made with pigs, cows and chickens > (large, 'soulful' eyes and exaggerated cuteness), it would generate > enough sentimental feelings among children (and some adults) so meat > eating never would be taken up in the first place :-).' Why not exaggerate cat eye cuteness and reform the Asaians? Better we could take our kids to the slaughter houses. You should go Tim when you have a channce. David {only murders people without cute eyes) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > the animals > were not killed first, but directly taken and placed into boiling > oil > (for 20-30 seconds) and then immediately skinned and put into > buckets > of water (still alive). > > Clearly, this practice (as portrayed) is horrifying. I take it you would never eat a lobster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , david.bozzi@n... wrote: > , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > > the animals > > were not killed first, but directly taken and placed into boiling > > oil (for 20-30 seconds) and then immediately skinned and put into > > buckets of water (still alive). > > > > Clearly, this practice (as portrayed) is horrifying. > > I take it you would never eat a lobster. Most certainly, i would not put anything living into a pot of boiling water. As for eating, there's no obsession with it or even interest... it keeps the body alive, that's all. Namaste, Omkara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > As for eating, there's no obsession with it or even > interest... it keeps the body alive, that's all. It's more. It affects level of health, happiness and longjevity. Can I interest you in a Happy Meal? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , david.bozzi@n... wrote: > , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > > As for eating, there's no obsession with it or even > > interest... it keeps the body alive, that's all. > > It's more. It affects level of health, happiness > and longjevity. Happiness is "uncaused" and depends on *nothing* (not health, not "longevity", not anything whatsoever). But if you haven't realized this, by all means, please continue with your beliefs. Namaste, Omkara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > Happiness is "uncaused" and depends on *nothing* (not health, > not "longevity", not anything whatsoever). You really believe this? > But if you haven't > realized this, by all means, please continue with your beliefs. You too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , david.bozzi@n... wrote: > , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > > > Happiness is "uncaused" and depends on *nothing* (not health, > > not "longevity", not anything whatsoever). > > You really believe this? Known 'experientially' -- not a matter of belief at all. But i wouldn't ask you to believe that <laugh>. Namaste, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > , david.bozzi@n... wrote: > > , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > > > > > Happiness is "uncaused" and depends on *nothing* (not health, > > > not "longevity", not anything whatsoever). > > > > You really believe this? > > Known 'experientially' -- not a matter of belief at all. But i > wouldn't ask you to believe that <laugh>. Question for you is do believe it? I have direct experience that what I believe and what I directly experience are different. But I suppose you wouldn't be willing to be honest with yourself about that if such were the case for you... David (believes he should be happy but is not) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote: > was a sickening thing to observe it, especially since the animals > were not killed first, but directly taken and placed into boiling oil > (for 20-30 seconds) and then immediately skinned and put into buckets > of water (still alive). Hey there, It is an extant practice in China/Asia to deny human rights and have no compassion for animals, it seems. This isn't strictly true for there are many who will pay their entire year's pay to have a dog license. There is always hope!!! They not only eat dogs and cats in Asia they also eat live monkey brains. Recently some hospital people in China were arrested for cooking and eating foetuses, doctors included!!This was too much even for the government!! However it is all value judgement, when we have slaughter houses killing billions!!!! There was a story on TV today about a man standing in the street and a duck coming up to him and pulling his trousers, and then running off and lying down. It did this twice so the man followed the duck, and found she was trying to draw attention to her ducklings who had fallen down a drain!!! The police came and rescued them!! A wild duck knew only a man could help her------Universal Intelligence!!! I'm afraid on my Asian travels I was constantly reminded of the great thousands of years of civilised history in India, China etc. Well from my observation that is exactly where it was in the History books. I'm afraid in the West we are often accused of being prejudiced etc etc. However we are the most tolerant people on the planet and the least ethnophobic. We don't usually expel our children for inter racial marriage etc. We shouldn't accept reverse racism!!!!!! I'm afraid the non spiritual people control the planet, in the East it is crude and oppressive in the West it is under the table and subtle. It is all due to the demise of civilisation 9000 B.C. and the genetic engineering of a new replacement population of mixture people, who didn't have any 'civilised', samskaras. Monkey people, that's why they keep seeing few genetic ancestors, the same few codes were used all the time. It is the worst period in history, the Kali Yuga, and with a few interuptions it will oscillate for thousands of years until, man is only four feet tall and living in sparse groups, as an animal. It is a cycle that's all. It all has to do with awareness, most people are human animals, not human beings or even aspiring humans. Then will come a new age of truth!!!..Perhaps we can wake up before that. We have been here a long time.......Hu. The Humanzee!!haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 > I just heard on > the news a report about the breeding and raising of Saint Bernard > dogs in China for food. As I look into the soulful eyes of my > darling > Juneau, I can only weep to think that these gentle, noble creatures > are being harvested for food. I see the same eyes in cows, pigs and chickens too. Who lies behind the eyes? The same one who is in front of the eyes. The same one who is in a blade of grass, a stone, or the most distant apparent void of space ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 My dearest Tim, Am I the only one who understands you? You wrote: > Keep in mind, however, that to attempt to impose a belief upon > another could be looked at as a sort of violence. So glad you say this, it is so obvious. To engage someone in a debate about ahimsa violates ahimsa. This is all about dog eat dog, Why not about god eat god. Sorry that this sounds so trite (is that the word?), Let's not keep getting deviated... Love, Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Why do you humans have such a problem with life and death? Love, Wim (Amrita? Anybody?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 At 11:17 AM 7/13/01 +0000, you wrote: , david.bozzi@n... wrote: > , sraddha54@h... wrote: > > I just heard on the news a report about the breeding and raising > > of Saint Bernard dogs in China for food. As I look into the > > soulful eyes of my darling Juneau, I can only weep to think that > > these gentle, noble creatures are being harvested for food. > > I see the same eyes in cows, pigs and chickens too. > Who lies behind the eyes? The three gunas (sorry to be so direct about it). It gets a little tiresome to see mere sentimentality constantly being confused with "morality" (although the two are really one and the same thing). In nature, there is no compassion; the lion brings down the deer without 'remorse' or 'pity' and eats it while alive and still screaming, drinking the warm blood. In the West, a distinction is made between "pet animals" and "food animals." Maybe the distinction is arbitrary, maybe not -- in a real sense, humans have created and shaped all "domesticated" animals through selective breeding. If desired, a case could be made: "eating meat is not cruel" -- but i won't bother. It's a 'choice' everyone can make at any time, but nobody has an option to force that on someone else. Maybe if a series of cartoons were made with pigs, cows and chickens (large, 'soulful' eyes and exaggerated cuteness), it would generate enough sentimental feelings among children (and some adults) so meat eating never would be taken up in the first place :-). Namaste, Omkara Indeed. Sentimentality = religiosity = disguised ambition ... (After reading your post, and remembering Mr. Potato Head, I'm never eating a potato again.) ;-) Eye, eye, capitan! Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Yes - the abounding of indifference, to animals to be eaten, to other human beings, to the resources of the earth -- The energies involved in the pursuit of the bottom-line aren't stemmed by religion, laws, logical argument, or expressions of feeling ... The tendency to survive and reproduce, to gain security and status for me and mine, and make other things expendable in that process is a powerful tendency indeed ... Hearing the sound of the wish to be able to control what can't be controlled (the perceived hurtful actions of others) and the attitudes and emotions that go along with the wish ... And what is left but to sit with those wishes, attitudes, and emotions ... as with anything else that arises to depart ... Dan Hi Mazie, i can understand... some years ago, there was a special on HBO about the eating of both cats and dogs in a few of the asian countries. It was a sickening thing to observe it, especially since the animals were not killed first, but directly taken and placed into boiling oil (for 20-30 seconds) and then immediately skinned and put into buckets of water (still alive). Clearly, this practice (as portrayed) is horrifying. At least in the West, the killing of animals is generally done in a manner without causing the animal much pain (usually none), although i am not "arguing for it" (or against it, for that matter). Whether there's a difference between cows, pigs, fish and -- cats, dogs and ferrets is not easy to say. Some would immediately say "no distinction," i would say perhaps there is (it has to do with selective breeding and some other factors, but most of all it has to do with 'the observer of it' -- 'that which makes distinctions'). Namaste, Omkara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:08:42 -0700 "Wim Borsboom" <wim writes: > Why do you humans have such a problem with life and death? > > Love, Wim > (Amrita? Anybody?) > Fear of their own impending deaths comes to mind, Wim. We equate death with fear and suffering, and believe a long incarnation lived in preparation for the grave incurs much less suffering than a shorter one lived in preparation for a place in the butcher's shop window. The pet relationship of dogs and cats in the west, like the sacred status of cows on the subcontinent, seems to comprise a perceptual lens. In both cases, we see the species as part of our family and/or community, making it repugnant to think of them as slaughtered food -- it may even trigger some instinctive aversion to cannibalism and/or murder, who knows? http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 , Bruce Morgen <editor@j...> wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:08:42 -0700 "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> > writes: > > Why do you humans have such a problem with life and death? > > > > Love, Wim > > (Amrita? Anybody?) > > > Fear of their own impending > deaths comes to mind, Wim. > We equate death with fear > and suffering, and believe > a long incarnation lived in > preparation for the grave > incurs much less suffering > than a shorter one lived in > preparation for a place in > the butcher's shop window. > > The pet relationship of > dogs and cats in the west, > like the sacred status of > cows on the subcontinent, > seems to comprise a > perceptual lens. In both > cases, we see the species > as part of our family > and/or community, making > it repugnant to think of > them as slaughtered food -- > it may even trigger some > instinctive aversion to > cannibalism and/or murder, > who knows? Namaste All, I was reading about people eating gorillas in Africa, and one even said it was a substitute for human flesh!!!!!!!! In fact it is only logical if one eats meat to eat humans too, 'long pig', they call it in the pacific islands. In the end result one can only change oneself, the world will always be there. Give up aversion and attachment and the dream will only be an image on a screen, I'm told.......ONS....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 19:57:17 -0000 "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery writes: > , Bruce Morgen <editor@j...> wrote: > > > > On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:08:42 -0700 "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> > > writes: > > > Why do you humans have such a problem with life and death? > > > > > > Love, Wim > > > (Amrita? Anybody?) > > > > > Fear of their own impending > > deaths comes to mind, Wim. > > We equate death with fear > > and suffering, and believe > > a long incarnation lived in > > preparation for the grave > > incurs much less suffering > > than a shorter one lived in > > preparation for a place in > > the butcher's shop window. > > > > The pet relationship of > > dogs and cats in the west, > > like the sacred status of > > cows on the subcontinent, > > seems to comprise a > > perceptual lens. In both > > cases, we see the species > > as part of our family > > and/or community, making > > it repugnant to think of > > them as slaughtered food -- > > it may even trigger some > > instinctive aversion to > > cannibalism and/or murder, > > who knows? > > > Namaste All, > > I was reading about people eating gorillas in Africa, and one even > said it was a substitute for human flesh!!!!!!!! A case of kultur uber alles -- I wonder if these people bothered with the "substitute" before Europeans arrived with their cultural aversions. > In fact it is only logical if one eats meat to eat humans too, 'long > pig', they call it in the pacific islands. I heard the term as "long pork," and I wonder if it's limited to the Pacific. > > In the end result one can only change oneself, the world will always > be there. Hear, hear! > > Give up aversion and attachment and the dream will only be an image > on a screen, I'm told.......ONS....Tony. > Welcome back, Tony. http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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