Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 At 08:20 PM 7/18/01 -0400, you wrote: In a message dated 7/18/01 5:20:27 PM Central Daylight Time, berkowd (AT) uncwil (DOT) edu writes: Very clearly articulated, Tim. Thanks! It seems difficulties arise when the Self comes to believe that its best shot at being well is to reject part of Itself. I guess you could call such self-rejection a distortion of love. Seeing the "larger picture" is how the contradictory nature of self-rejection is revealed and Wholeness, which actually never departed, is "restored" ... Love, Dan OH Dan!!! Thank you for that bit.... for some time now, I've felt for those who wish to deny their ego.... The I loves the ego.... The ego merely needs to remember to love the I..... We are a complete circle within ourselves... Beauty personified... Its all in the remembering... Thank you so much for voicing that so well, as you did above.. With Delight @`--,--Lynette--,--`@ (the heart of a poet) Hi Lynette- I'm glad you responded this way to the words I wrote. Just to be clear -- I didn't say anything about loving the "I" or that there is an ego that can love an "I" ... For me, ego is concept-based self-reference, which can't seem to have reality unless there already has been self-rejection (otherwise how could there be a part of the whole taken as a continuing "special" reference point?) ... This isn't to say that ego is bad, wrong, out of place, or to be gotten rid of -- to that extent I agree with you. However, for the ego to exist as an object of love, or as something that can love I -- that doesn't fit for me ... But thanks for your interpretation ;-) As Light, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 I'm glad you responded this way to the words I wrote. Just to be clear -- I didn't say anything about loving the "I" or that there is an ego that can love an "I" ... @@@@ Unfortunately for me, / and my mail service do not work well together... I have yet to see the original of this conversation, but have seen several replies, which, of course, I have no way of knowing for sure, which was said first, and onward... lol... It just is the way it is. I suppose I could just get the digest, and that would certainly solve the problem. and hope that they come in sequence then. So, when I caught your bit, I responded according to the moment, and thoughts that came from your statement. For me, ego is concept-based self-reference, which can't seem to have reality unless there already has been self-rejection (otherwise how could there be a part of the whole taken as a continuing "special" reference point?) ... @@@@ I would agree with you here. And yet, also, the majority of the population have experienced self rejection.. This isn't to say that ego is bad, wrong, out of place, or to be gotten rid of -- to that extent I agree with you. However, for the ego to exist as an object of love, or as something that can love I -- that doesn't fit for me ... @@@@ I understand your statement, and realize that I do agree... I only knows what is created for me... But, as I sit here, I see images of my first few days on earth, and have to say this..... I am that which I am.... And from the day I was born, and before I was born, my ego was created by my parents, society, religion, ancestors. I create a life according to what I have perceived myself to be, all the good and all the bad that I have believed about myself becomes part of who I am........ part of the ego. It is here that self rejection happens.... Then take a moment when the ego realizes the I.... at first, there is not the love, there are lots of other emotions that play themselves out....But, at least in my case, there was a moment/s/time when my ego loved I....and felt two parts of the whole within myself. I began to rely on the I {my ego relied on the I} to lead me... two parts that argued in my head... This is my experience, not to say this is the case for everybody. And then the day is realized that there is no ego, but merely I.... take me or leave me, as you will.... for I love whom I am..And this I "think" is what you are saying, is that there really is no ego. So, to finish up, my statement to you, was in hopes of sharing for those who believe they are an ego as well as an I. And share with them, that their ego needs NOT to die to become their true selves... Believing the ego is bad, is self judgement of the ego..... And I feel can be just as damaging as any other kind of self judgement. We merely need to learn to love ourselves unconditionally... and with full acceptance of our past, present, and future, living in the moment, becoming the moment, enjoying the moment.... and realize we are one, within and without ourselves. okay, I've rambled long enough. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to share in your conversation briefly... With Delight @`--,--Lynette--,--`@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Hi Lynette! @@@@ Unfortunately for me, / and my mail service do not work well together... I have yet to see the original of this conversation, but have seen several replies, which, of course, I have no way of knowing for sure, which was said first, and onward... lol... It just is the way it is. I suppose I could just get the digest, and that would certainly solve the problem. and hope that they come in sequence then. So, when I caught your bit, I responded according to the moment, and thoughts that came from your statement. That's fine with me. No need to go back. For me, going back can get legalistic. "What is" never goes back! For me, ego is concept-based self-reference, which can't seem to have reality unless there already has been self-rejection (otherwise how could there be a part of the whole taken as a continuing "special" reference point?) ... @@@@ I would agree with you here. And yet, also, the majority of the population have experienced self rejection.. Anyone experiencing from a standpoint of a separated existence of one's own, or of one's group, is in self-rejection. Teachers, gurus, leaders propounding "unity" and "spiritual growth" are in self-rejection if they don't "deeply know" themselves as those to whom they propound, expound, and demonstrate. This isn't to say that ego is bad, wrong, out of place, or to be gotten rid of -- to that extent I agree with you. However, for the ego to exist as an object of love, or as something that can love I -- that doesn't fit for me ... @@@@ I understand your statement, and realize that I do agree... I only knows what is created for me... But, as I sit here, I see images of my first few days on earth, and have to say this..... I am that which I am.... And from the day I was born, and before I was born, my ego was created by my parents, society, religion, ancestors. I create a life according to what I have perceived myself to be, all the good and all the bad that I have believed about myself becomes part of who I am........ part of the ego. It is here that self rejection happens.... The instant is perceived a someone who has been born as a separated or "own" existence, a body that is "mine" and "me" ... that is the instant of self-rejection. In that same instant, is created the "other" which is "not me" ... this develops into "I" am in here and "that which is outside" is over there. All of this scenario "occurs" within "Totality" .... This "Totality" remains "who I really am" the whole time -- but recognition has become obscured by belief and misperception of "what is the case" ... As the "psychology of 'me'" develops, with its fears, desires, holdings, frustrations, projections, security, opinions ... self-rejection is often hidden away as bodily tension, repressed feelings and memories, and so on. Yet, it is always "there" as the basis for the psychology of the individual and group, holding onto self as an entity, a being that wants to maintain its "continuity"... Then take a moment when the ego realizes the I.... at first, there is not the love, there are lots of other emotions that play themselves out....But, at least in my case, there was a moment/s/time when my ego loved I....and felt two parts of the whole within myself. I began to rely on the I {my ego relied on the I} to lead me... two parts that argued in my head... This is my experience, not to say this is the case for everybody. The way you would put your experience into words and the words I would use are different. The word "ego" gets used in different ways, to be sure. It's become a rather imprecise word, unless the context of its usage is clear. From my perspective, the ego has no feelings nor an ability to realize. It is an abstraction, a way to organize perception, a way of conceptualizing. I guess when I read what you wrote above, the question that comes to mind is "who is it that observes the ego and the I arguing, that notices the ego relying on the 'I'?" This "Who" is neither the ego nor the I, yet ego and I appear as this Who observes. For me, this Who never has a name, never speaks, never tells about itself or its reactions (it doesn't have what we humans call "reactions", yet at the same time, it *is* us as humans with our reactions) ... And then the day is realized that there is no ego, but merely I.... take me or leave me, as you will.... for I love whom I am..And this I "think" is what you are saying, is that there really is no ego. Well, it's that with no "other", there is no statement "take me or leave me as you will" -- when there is no other -- to whom will such as statement be made? Who else is there to accept or reject who I am, from whom will validation or invalidation be sought? Love of whom I am then shifts, from love of qualities and a sense of being, to love as simple unsplit "nowness" -- which is "all that is" -- not love of self, but love as self -- not love to get love, but love as love ... which isn't really what is usually called love at all -- which usually involves human preference for attractive appearances, warm feelings, and harmony. Love as love embodies the entire world just as it is, without any revulsion for any aspect of it whatsoever .... So, to finish up, my statement to you, was in hopes of sharing for those who believe they are an ego as well as an I. And share with them, that their ego needs NOT to die to become their true selves... Believing the ego is bad, is self judgement of the ego..... And I feel can be just as damaging as any other kind of self judgement. Yes. That is an excellent point. We merely need to learn to love ourselves unconditionally... and with full acceptance of our past, present, and future, living in the moment, becoming the moment, enjoying the moment.... and realize we are one, within and without ourselves. And, perhaps we don't need to learn anything. Perhaps the unconditional is utterly present, albeit, often unrecognized as such ... okay, I've rambled long enough. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to share in your conversation briefly... Rambling is good. I'm glad to have shared a ramble with you. Enjoying your rambling roses, Lynette... U Da Light *~~Dan~~* With Delight @`--,--Lynette--,--`@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 > Rambling is good. > I'm glad to have shared a ramble with you. > Enjoying your rambling roses, Lynette... > > And you as well, Dan Love, Lynette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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