Matthew/ self-surrender/The bargain of a life time

[Guest guest]

Of course.

We use words, but are beyond words (including these).

We use concepts, but are beyond concepts

(including this one).

So true, Dan, I was just saying the other day.... It doesnt matter

what I know.... for I will never be able to express it perfectly in

words.... Words only confuse the truth and make me appear

inadequate... but oh well, we say things to the best of our

ability... It is up to us, the listener, to not nitpick {dont you

just love that word.... lol... I get a visual image of monkeys

picking nits off of each other} Its up to us, to not nitpick at

another's choice of words to describe an idea and a concept... It

might just be..... the two are one in understanding.... we are just

saying it differently... ))))

Hugs and Hugs and more Hugs.... Everyone have a wonderful day )))

~~~~~With Delight~~~~~

~~Upon the Waves of Life ~~

~~~~~Yours Truly~~~~~~

~~~~~~Lynette~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

Hi Matthew!

,

Daniel Berkow <berkowd@u...> wrote:

>

>

> So, for me, the surrender of identity can only be the "seeing

through" of

> identity. I agree that such seeing through

is implied in

different

> cultures. However, cultures also seem to get

caught in their own

> metaphors, so that whatever the God concept (or

enlightenment

> concept) is, they start to take it very seriously

in different

ways.

................does this include the "seeing through"

concept?

Of course.

We use words, but are beyond words (including these).

We use concepts, but are beyond concepts

(including this one).

>

So, the God concept seems as

> much of a hindrance as a help to "surrender

of identity",since it

> is a form of identity, which is to be

surrendered.

................a hinderance to some, a help to others, thus we have

so many ways of looking at and describing the

undescribable.

Sure -- but do you know who you are beyond

any description?

If so, no placement of self into description, no

attempt to get beyond description, either.

It just doesn't apply.

>

> Thus, surrender of identity is also surrender of culture, and

surrender

> of God.

..........well, the concept of god anyway.

Of course "surrendering" surrenders its own

presumed

> activity as well!

.................everything must go!!

Nothing to start, nothing needing

to be finished.

Nothing to get rid of, nothing out of place.

Where am I?

Who cares?

Love. Be. Is.

>

>

..

>

A great deal of what culture

> and religion do, as I see it, is reinforce the tendency of thought

and

> perception to structure around a "me" of the past, which

can be the

> "individualist 'me' " that is so prominent in Western

cultures, but

which

> also can be the "group 'me'" of more tradition-focused

cultures

("my group

> that shares the same symbols, expectations, etc.").

So, cultures

and

> religions tend to stress how you are to be understood in terms of

your past

> actions, the beliefs and expectations you share with others, the

rituals

> that connect you to others, and so on. There is a sense of

individual and

> shared time and space, that is surrendered when identity is

> surrendered. There is no longer an individual or group who can

claim to

> belong to a place and time, or to be going through time to get

someplace.

............i agree dan and there is no getting away from it since any

where you turn there is going to be a culture doing that very thing.

There is no place to go where that cultural reinforcement of the

individuated "i" isn't happening. Only in a culture where

"seeing

through" of identity is "lived" could there begin to be a

reversal in

the way culture reinforces self- referencing.

Who I am depends not on culture.

Cultures arise and depart, as do languages,

actions, and beings.

I alone do not arise nor depart.

Thus, no culture has ever fully recognized me,

imparted me through image or word,

nor encountered me.

And yes, as you indicate, where "human being" is,

culture is, as well. Like a fish is not found

where water is not. How is it that a human being

is able to empty itself of all that arises and departs,

all that begins and ends, including culture and

body-mind associations? Some call this a mystery,

yet it is only the actual present nature of *what is* ...

Which is beyond every beyond culture or form, yet always

breathing life into temporary forms and beings, which is

the very presence that allows forms and beings to

present themselves ...

Love,

Dan

........matthew

/join

 

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