the physical

[Guest guest]

>> The real betrayer is/was a person in another body who played

betraying control games on you, and who forced you - under duress -

to blame your body for the betrayal... It is complex... but such are

the dynamics... <<

Actually, I have been in three car accidents (in addition to the other

physical betrayals I experience in childhood). One head-on collision

with a drunk driver. One side on collision (left) with a red light

runner. One side on collision (right) with a drunk driver. The result

is that the body has two almost completely collapsed disks in the neck

and a knee cap (right) that, having been broken completely in half, is

now, after a number of decades without the normal amount of protective

"oil" is increasingly reluctant to work. My physical pain is chronic;

it exists every day. I spend two days every week in physical therapy,

just to keep the level to a low howl. One thing that has always

bothered me about "new age" thought and the use of nonduality or any

other kind of enlightenment talk is when it is used to tell someone

that they or some experience doesn't exist. To me this is specious

doublespeak and accomplishes nothing. I have made no claim to be Self

realized. And actually, I have no more to say about it. Shanti ~ Linda

[Guest guest]

Linda wrote:

One thing that has always bothered me about "new age" thought and the

use of nonduality or any other kind of enlightenment talk is when it

is used to tell someone that they or some experience doesn't exist.

Dear Linda,

Please forgive my abrupt tone, but this is just how it comes out sometimes:

This pain you experience every day may exist, but it is NOT yours.

It belongs to the body, sure....which is also not yours.

Here is a clip from an e-mail I received yesterday, that I hope is

as wonderful to read for you as it is for me.

> The question is, what does "accept our existence the way it is"

mean? >>I think it means to resist nothing that comes, to release the

constant urgeto escape, to wish things things were different. For

instance, if weaccidentally hit our thumb with a hammer, there is

pain. Compounding thepain is anger, frustration, embarrassment, etc.

These reactions are habitsdesigned to keep us from seeing What Is,

namely: a painful thumb. Ifsomeone praises or criticizes us, the

same mechanism launches into action.A sudden desire for ice cream?

Same thing. But rather than stamping outthese reactions, we can also

see them as part of the totality, as part ofWhat Is. Then the

perfection becomes obvious.

Peace to you, Linda.

Kheyala/join

All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to the

[Guest guest]

Wim,

Hello, I have a few questions about your account.

The problems I had were structural: spinal, shoulder and hip problems

that affected my nerves and muscles. Many health practitioners

assured me that they could help me with. And some did a bit. For the

longest time however, I thought that I would have this affliction for

the rest of my life… whatever was left. Accepting that, actually

made the pain more bearable and sometimes it would subside somewhat.

@@@@@@ The pain caused by injury: car accidents, abuse through

manual labor, and other such forms that are explainable pain......

are these types of pain, equally healed as those that are directly

related to "emotional or mental" type reflections of pain? does that

make sense?

(Zen Satori) I connected that enlightenment loosely with some of the

kundalini characteristics that I had read about. But in 1985

kundalini was not in my scope at all, also I did not take too well to

Yogi Bayan and his 4HO run here in British Columbia by turbaned

@@@@@@ Also, I am, rather, I suspect that not everybody's

enlightenment process necessarily follows the same path.... As in,

there isnt just one particular thing that begins the process, not all

people require the same amount of time, not all will experience the

same extreme process. Some might experience one thing early on in

their process, that might take someone else a couple of years into

their process to experience... I guess in otherwords, I'm asking,

nobody's path is the same, or nobody should expect everybody's path

to be the same?

Did I really think we had lost our wings?)

@@@@@ naaaaa. they are just hiding )))))

Hugs

~~~~~With Delight~~~~~

~~Upon the Waves of Life ~~

~~~~~Yours Truly~~~~~~

~~~~~~Lynette~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Dear Linda:

Arial;color:black">

Arial;color:black">Linda:

Arial;color:black">My physical pain is chronic; it exists every day.

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext">

Wim:

Absolutely,

and let no “new ager” talk you out of that. Authentic enlightened people will

not deny you the pain either, don’t you worry. There is pain and a certain ability

to bear it and endure comes with it, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending

on the level of acceptance - which can vary depending on circumstances.

Although I

may not have had the same severity of pain as you, for many years I had, from

when I was 11 years old and on, at first light headaches which increased over

time with the appearance of spasms in neck and lower spine. After I was 16 it

subsided somewhat and it disappeared when I was 19 (I was a monk then) to

return in full swing when I was about 43 years old, when at times I could

hardly move for days, eventually going though half a year during which I could

not even tie my shoe laces, wash my face, brush my teeth, comb my hair, etc.

The pain eventually radiated out right to my fingertips and toes. I had to give

up frequent showering, often stayed in bed for days on end. The problems I had

were structural: spinal, shoulder and hip problems that affected my nerves and

muscles. Many health practitioners assured me that they could help me with. And

some did a bit. For

the longest time however, I thought that I would have this affliction for the

rest of my life… whatever was left. Accepting that, actually made the pain more

bearable and sometimes it would subside somewhat. But… I started noticing something…

when I went through some ‘manipulative episodes’ (and boy, did I learn to

exploit my pain, more on that later) my pains seemed much more in the

foreground and feel even worse.

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Please Linda, do

not assume that I mean that the following applies to you. I just want to give a

personal account of an extended period in my life that your email reminded me

of. I learned a lot from my pain and suffering and luckily in my work now - and

with the compassion that came with that learning - I can be of some assistance

to some people who are helping themselves gaining insight into the dynamics of

what they do with their pain and what they can do with the suffering that may

accompany their pain.

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I use the word

“pain” in the sense of:

Physical

discomfort, in varying grades of intensity,

associated with disease, injury or physical abuse,

poisoning, harmful radiation, injurious food and poor eating habits,

characterized by bodily discomforts such as stabbing, cutting,

pricking, throbbing, cramping or other physical aching sensations.

12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext">

12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I use the word

“suffering“ in the sense of:

mso-color-alt:windowtext">

Emotional

discomfort, mental distress, a feeling of misery,

intense unhappiness, emotional distress, vocational stress, etc.

Suffering may or may not be accompanied by painful

physical discomforts.

mso-color-alt:windowtext">

The

word “suffering” originally meant (but I do not use the word that way):

the acceptance of varying levels of discomfort without

complaint,

the quiet endurance of pain, as in “long-suffering.”

Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Whereas pain (in

my use of the word) is caused by physical means, suffering (in my use of the

word) is caused by harmful personal, familial, workplace related, social,

societal and religional (is that a word?) means.

line-break">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">So, to carry on

where I left off, over time I started to also emotionally suffer more.

Probably, (I had that vague inkling, but kept that hunch in the background)

because I focused on the pain in such a way at to make my pain…

… … “pay off.”

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Oh, how I

suffered, I must have been good at it. I started to notice something

interesting though: before the manipulative episodes I never used the word

“suffering.” I now started to see, (but I would not fully commit to that

discovery) that the suffering came in while I played my manipulative games with

pain. I, the game, the players involved, the places I went to (and the ones I

did not), all that was “the scene of suffering”. Well, like I said, I did not

want to know that, really, because I would lose a certain advantage… In fact

the more I suffered the more advantage I seemed to get… until during the

hardest time someone, in no uncertain terms pointed this out to

me… I knew, (of course I did) but still, it was a

shocker. Did I ever object loudly

at first, but secretly I started working at this. Of course the pain stayed…

but the suffering personality started to fade. I began to see that my suffering

persona was an illusive persona, playing my illusions on others, attempting to

control them with them. I was able to get away with “my stuff” and gain stuff -

even time and money - but at a cost: personal suffering, anguish, bitterness,

nastiness.

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">So although I

was gaining tangible advantages, (oh yes!) I had to pay the price of the

miserable sufferer.

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">So, please

Linda, don’t take me wrong, I am not saying at all that you do that… Your email

just got me into remembering my plight… and also how I dealt with it.

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I got to find

out the difference between “a human enduring pain” and “a sufferer manipulating

pain for gain.”

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">That discovery

also made me distinguish reality from illusion and allowed me to, eventually,

dissolve the illusion and suffering. The buddha Siddharta Gautama Sakyamuni

helped me a great deal in seeing what that “pseudo life of suffering” is about,

while the bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara helped me to recover and reclaim what

living in reality is.

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Pain is real,

just as real as car accidents are, but what we - all too often - have to do

with our pain in this society to ensure that we get what is rightfully due to

us - proper and appropriate care, insurance benefits that we should have

coming, sick leave or just time off - that what is supposed to come to us

easily, somehow seems very hard to come by. Ah, but the games we sometimes have

to play can easily get a person carried away into a world of suffering, illusion,

delusion and eventually despair. The games are OK up to a point, it comes with

the system, such is this world… but I also know how one can extend the game,

get lost in it… the roller coaster ride downhill, I remember the frequent

nightmares of driving my car downhill, the brakes stopping to function… the

downslide… the rude awakening.

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Yes, I have done

it all…

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">What follows I

have written before, but why don’t I repeat it as we have so many new list

members, and it seems that the understanding of that process called Kundalini

leaves something to be desired.

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I have done a

rather long experiment in my life, (one of many, am I perhaps a dare-angel?

10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;mso-ascii-font-family:Arial;mso-hansi-font-family:

Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:

Wingdings">J

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">) an experiment that some people have

found or will find totally crazy, stupid and irresponsible… but then, hey, I

knew, there was no risk involved. (Not a real experiment then…?)

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I knew from very

early on in life, from when I was still a kid, that us humans, (I did not

investigate other creatures) have some inner mechanism that enables us to heal

ourselves physically. It was very clear to me on the physical level. As a kid I

was so impressed by it: when I had a little scrape, it would take three days to

heal when I could pick at the scab and discover new fresh skin. Broken or

squished black fingernails would regrow although that would take a painful

little while longer. When I had a big ouch

with lots of blood and some raw flesh showing, it would take seven days to be

alright again, a broken milk tooth did replace itself, but rather later than

sooner. I knew of someone (Emanuel Swedenborg) who regrew his adult teeth. When

I twisted my ankle… Well, you get

the point.

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Of course, I

found out there were limits to re-growth, on our street lived an old man with a

wooden leg, and I had a little friend who died from MS, and also I knew that we

humans had not been able to regrow our tails

10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;mso-ascii-font-family:Arial;mso-hansi-font-family:

Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:

Wingdings">J

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> and other missing limbs. (Did I really

think we had lost our wings?)

At one

point it struck me, (but that was way later in my life) that we humans should

also have an inner mechanism, that would enable us to regrow our emotional

losses, overcome our suffering from anguish and anxieties, to rid ourselves of

guilt, fear, anger, all in all to become our original happy self again.

It must

have been around 1985 (I was a guru, a small meditation center, the whole bit…

although on a smallish scale) that I decided to find that mechanism that I knew

had to exist.

I had had

a visionary visitation from my great friend Avalokiteshvara and got a message

about and from my son Emanuel that I should close the center. Result, the

following Saturday I sent the devotees (heeheehee) on their way and… I started

an experiment to destroy myself slowly over time.

Of course,

I knew that surely I could reintegrate myself… My God, I was spiritual leader,

albeit tired of healing others… (Ah, the dependency tricks that were played.)

I knew

that every one of us humans had non-physical self-healing innately available,

why would it not spontaneously kick in? I wanted to find out for myself, what

exactly the dynamics were and why self-healing did not initiate itself when I

expected it.

So, I

slowly started to destroy myself: emotionally, mentally, spiritually and

physically. I must point out that I knew vaguely of Kundalini in 1975, when I

got enlightened. (Zen Satori) I connected that enlightenment loosely with some

of the kundalini characteristics that I had read about. But in 1985 kundalini

was not in my scope at all, also I did not take too well to Yogi Bayan and his

4HO run here in British Columbia by turbaned pale faces in white robes who

taught Kundalini Yoga. (Yep, that is how I saw them, I’m sorry to say.)

It took me

13 years to slide down into the deepest pit, what resilience the human being

has! (By the way, while getting down emotionally and spiritually I was doing

very well financially, thank you. I knew how to play the ropes and manipulate

like hell.) Then one evening I told my wife and son that I knew I was at “my

wits end” and that next morning something really catastrophic would happen. It

did - I had quite an influential computer training company management job, and

had just, with all kinds of clever maneuvering, kept that part of the company

afloat, while at the same time securing myself a nice salary, a nice bonus and

a rich resort vacation - that morning I sobbingly asked my wife to phone my

boss and tell him that I could not come to work for a while… I fell to the

floor… crawled to the couch and some very complex spastic twitches and ticks

started to move me… This was not an epileptic seizure; I know what that is like

from an early friend of mine. In fact and strangely, I could stop the movements

at will, but when I was not looking, so to say, they would start again. The

long and the short of it is that the self-healing had started… I asked my wife and

son for permission to “let the chips fall where they may.” I would surrender

myself totally to where the spasms would lead me… I then went through 960 days

of intense experiences of all kinds. Through some luck my wife found out that

this was what we now call Kundalini. The energies were burning me up, (not

literally, no spontaneous combustion or anything that “out of this world”) but

yes, I had to swim in cold rivers and in the icy cold Pacific Ocean here. I had

to go out into deep snow to cool myself… Tumo fire? The energy was sometimes

just too much… but I would not stop it… although I felt that I could at any

moment. I knew though, that that would be to no avail, as the process would

carry on later on anyway. I went through seven weeks of hardly any food, no

sleep but just spontaneous yoga like movements, not fragmented into yoga

asanas, but just as a continuous flowing yogic dance, each series lasting some

two hours, and repeating themselves various times day and night… All my body

parts, from deep inside and outwards, from top to bottom, nerve by nerve,

muscle by muscle, vertebra by vertebra, memory by memory, pain by pain, grief

by grief, childhood song by childhood song, thought by thought… And in 960 days

it was over…I looked at least ten years younger, my tissues were as soft as a

baby and my hair started picking up colour again. I danced and sang, I was a

virtual Krishna with his Gopis or Ramakrishna singing his blissful songs. I

retrieved my clairvoyance that I discovered when I was 8 years old and… went

back to work… to find out that I did not fit in any more (heeheehee).

Then I

“elected” to take an extra 40 days in the desert (so to say) to open myself to

the most severe temptations to be dealt with. Megalomania on the horizon to the

extreme…but I passed, so to say.

This is

only a short account… But surely, the self-healing and reintegration happened,

I cannot help it that it goes by that trendy name of Kundalini. Of course it

would scare the wits out of anybody… Is it because the truth comes out…all of

it? Everything one has done and everything that has been done to you surfaces,

akin to what is reported to happen to people who are passing on into afterlife

(whatever that is). It requires guts to be honest, and the people in your

immediate surrounding better love you a lot, as there are no holds

barred… But you know… there is no risk involved…

although one seems to die “nine lives.”

One just

needs time and a place and the feeling that one is allowed to take that time and

open up that place, one has to be allowed to go “haywire.”

I could be

the first one to criticize “would be kundalini clowns with two cars in their

car port”… but I don’t, because I can’t…

because I recognize in what they do,

however phony it may look to the outside world, what they are dealing with. A

world that does not want them to succeed lest more truth will be revealed of

what is done to human beings in a malicious way, very often in early life when

humans are at their most vulnerable because still pure but easily robbed of

that purity.

Arial;color:black">

Arial;color:black">Linda:

Arial;color:black">I spend two days every week in physical therapy,

just to keep the level to a low howl. One thing that

has always bothered me about "new age" thought

and the use of non-duality or any other kind of

enlightenment talk is when it is used to tell

someone that they or some experience doesn't exist.

Arial;color:black">

Wim:

The

miraculous and wondrous and often mysterious physical world with all the pain

and glory, from genuine darkness to authentic enlightenment and anything in between

exists. The concepts around that, the judgmental part, the mirroring and

projecting gobbledygook, the fears, the denials, the disbeliefs, the sarcasm

and skepticism is the illusion, the non-compassionate persona guised by pseudo

compassionate flare ups mixed with rage, using illusive power mongering to

their manipulative advantage. How do I know… because I did…(and, by the way… it

got all sorted out and no harm done…)

Well

there, sorry that I raved on?

No of

course not!

What all

this may have to do with you Linda? Somehow your story connected with mine.

You, just like me, lifted only a tip of the veil… That may be enough…

Arial;color:black">

Arial;color:black">Linda:

Arial;color:black">I have made no claim to be Self realized.

Arial;color:black">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Wim:

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Don’t worry,

that will come, as it is only to be re-claimed.

10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;mso-ascii-font-family:Arial;mso-hansi-font-family:

Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:

Wingdings">J

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">

Arial;color:black">

Arial;color:black">Linda:

Arial;color:black">And actually, I have no more to say about it.

Arial;color:black">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">And I’m done

too…

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">

11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Love, Wim.

12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext">

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[Guest guest]

font-family:Arial">Dear Lynette,

mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue">@@@@@@ The pain caused

by injury: car accidents, abuse through manual

labor, and other such forms that are explainable pain...... are these types

of pain, equally healed as those that are directly related to "emotional

or

mental" type reflections of pain? does that make sense?

mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext">

Wim:

Not when

there is structural damage… good thing there is medication. But yes, real

physical pain can be greatly diminished when a state of bliss is reached, our

natural endorphins?

mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue">

@@@@@@ Also, I am, rather, I suspect that not everybody's enlightenment

process necessarily follows the same path.... As in, there isnt just one

particular thing that begins the process, not all people require the same

amount of time, not all will experience the same extreme process.

mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext">

Of course

not, you remember, I wanted to get to the extremes of the experience of pain

and suffering, so as to get as full an understanding of our “innate self-reintegration

processes†as possible. Also I wanted to experience suffering, illusion and

delusion absolutely first hand, to find out, (Catching myself in the act often enough.)

how we inflict suffering on our fellow human beings, also if and how it would

backfire. (Like I said, I sorted it all out with the people that I affected.)

mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue">@@@@@@

Arial;color:navy"> I

guess in other

mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue">words, I'm asking, nobody's path is the

same,

"GoudyOlSt BT";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:navy">

"GoudyOlSt BT";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue">or nobody should expect

everybody's path to be the same?

Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext">

You are

right, of course.

mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:blue">

Wim:

(Did I really think we had lost our

wings?)

@@@@@ naaaaa. they are just hiding )))))

Love you Lynette,

"Times New Roman";color:black">

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[Guest guest]

, "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote:

> Dear Lynette,

>

> @@@@@@ The pain caused by injury: car accidents, abuse through

manual

> labor, and other such forms that are explainable pain...... are

these types

> of pain, equally healed as those that are directly related to

"emotional or

> mental" type reflections of pain? does that make sense?

>

> Wim:

> Not when there is structural damage… good thing there is

medication. But yes, real physical pain can be greatly diminished when

a state of bliss is reached, our natural endorphins?

 

Namaste All,

 

Canada has just legalised pot for patients. They can buy or grow their

own. I'm not sure how this fits into pain but it will attract US

Tourists anyway. BC Bud I supposehahahaha........ONS...Tony.