Guest guest Posted August 9, 2001 Report Share Posted August 9, 2001 Dear Tony, You wrote: > Recently I posted Ramana saying that K was the mind > and that chakras etc were all in the mind. I have not yet > found one 'probably realised sage' to endorse kundalini. I have invited you over so many times now... If you don't come over, you won't find one... :-) And if you do come over to "check it out," you won't find one either... :-) > Those that do seem to be into worship of energies, > gods or whatever, and haven't really turned within. Ah, "turning within." And that is what you are doing, right? Right! So, you have turned within, or you are in the process...! OK Where does it get you? ((((:-)))) Who is turning? Where are you turning from? Where are you turning too? Do you have to turn at all? Problem is, while you are turning within, if that is at all possible, you are still checking others out... Why are you doing that? Is that not turning outwards, the opposite of what you are trying to do? And by the way, turning within is a impossible as turning yourself inside out. And while you are turning outwards aren't you making "liars" out of those that you are checking out? (Oh yes, "liars!" More on that later...) At least that is consistent but... not very nice... not very nice at all... "Ultimately," Tony, you cannot get away with that :-) > I have had these so called experiences since I was a child, and later > when I was on the spiritual path it was so heavy it knocked me over > from a sitting position in meditation. All my experiences have been > around the heart area and above. Ever wondered why not below? > The sages say K is the mind and it is everywhere. > That it rises from the Heart and goes to the brain and back again. That is based on a wrong interpretation and subsequent wrong translations and commentaries of an old scripture. And... Ramana was aware of that. Remember Vicky posted "self-enquiry - misconceptions" a little while ago? Did you read it? I hardly ever quote someone, but OK this time I will relent... -------------------- David Godman: > This belief that the mind can, by its own activities, > reach the Self, is the root of most of > the misconceptions about the practice of self-enquiry. > A classic example of this is the belief that self-enquiry involves > concentrating on a particular centre in the body called the > Heart-centre.This widely held view results from a misinterpretation > of some of Sri Ramana Maharshi's statements on the Heart, > and to understand how this belief has come about it will be > necessary to take a closer look at some of his ideas on the subject. > In describing the origin of the 'I'-thought he sometimes said that > it arose to the brain through a channel which started from a centre > in the right hand side of the chest. He called this centre the > Heart centre and said that when the 'I'-thought subsided into the > Self it went back into the centre and disappeared. > He also said that when the Self is consciously experienced, > there is a tangible awareness that this centre is the source of > both the mind and the world. However, these statements are not > strictly true and Sri Ramana Maharshi sometimes qualified them by > saying that they were only schematic representations which were > given to those people who persisted in identifying with their > bodies. He said that the Heart is not really located in the body > and that from the highest standpoint it is equally untrue to say > that the 'I'-thought arises and subsides into this centre > on the right of the chest. > Because Sri Ramana Maharshi often said 'Find the place where > the "I" arises' or 'Find the source of the mind', many people > interpreted these statements to mean that they should concentrate > in this particular centre while doing self-enquiry. > Sri Ramana Maharshi rejected this interpretation many times by > saying that the source of the mind or the 'I' could only be > discovered through attention to the 'I'-thought and not through > concentration on a particular part of the body. > He did sometimes say that putting attention on this centre is a > good concentration practice, but he never associated it with > self-enquiry. He also occasionally said that meditation on the > Heart was an effective way of reaching the Self, but again, he > never said that this should be done by concentrating on the Heart- > centre. Instead he said that one should meditate on the Heart > 'as it is'. The Heart 'as it is' is not a location, it is the > immanent Self and one can only be aware of its real nature > by being it. It cannot be reached by concentration. > Although there are several potentially ambiguous comments of this > kind about the Heart and the Heart-centre, in all his writings and > recorded conversations there is not a single statement to support > the contention that self-enquiry is to be practised by > concentrating on this centre. In fact, by closely examining his > statements on the subject one can only conclude that while the > experience of the Self contains an awareness of this centre, > concentration on this centre will not result in the experience of > the Self. ---------------------- Tony again: > IMO opinion the K experience is prana, cleansing the sheaths, > or in yogic paths it is just aroused. Your "IMO" again, Tony. Opinions, opinions, those are exactly the notions and concepts to let go of. These are not matters of opinion!!! > So why all these paths talking of sushumnas, citras, nadis etc? > Well there are millions and millions of infinite energy currents, > in and around the body. That's what creation is. > The mind is capable of infinite possibilities even manifestations. > So if people want to worship K and experiences, the mind > obliges, even to the extent of siddhis etc. > However it is all in the area of belief and worship and > has no real validity, it is psychosomatic to a great degree. Notice that you say: "has no real validity" IYO, I trust. > My opinion is that K-sakti is the mind and is everywhere, > not just inside nadis, nadis are currents of the mind. What kind of ambiguous and totally convoluted statement is that? This is not only like the snake eating its tail, it is like the tail eating the snake at the same time... > The experience is the mind cleansing the sheaths > of a spiritual aspirant, namely for awareness to rise. > This is done by cleansing prana and that's it! IYO, the to be cleansed "sheaths of a spiritual aspirant" are also in the mind, because you say "K-sakti is the mind and is everywhere..." So the mind is supposed to cleanse "sheaths" Sheaths that are mind anyway... .... ... ... and so on and so forth... ... ... And in the end, you will say, that ultimately nothing really happened. Just substitute the word mind for soap and you get the following: So, it is like soap cleansing itself, isn't it? Soap making itself dirty... The soap washing its own dirt, which is soap to begin with... Of course ultimately soap is running out of itself, wondering if soap was there in the first place. I actually have a nice piece of soap here, it is yin/yang soap, one part is black, the other part white. When one washes one's hands with it even when they are clean to be begin with, the rinsing water is still grey... and the hands are still as clean as they were before. Tony, you are staring at the soap and the rinse water... You are looking for Mr. Clean. I was about to get rid of that piece of Yin Yang soap, but you know what I'll offer it to you... You can come and pick it up. He, you know what? I'll make a picture of it and attach it...Lest you make an illusion artist out of me... :-) > All the rest is concepts, constructs, religion, > belief systems and mainly the imagination > it is psychosomatic to a great degree. You just don't believe any of it? Do you? IYO, you think that all those people are imagining, wrongfully and misguidedly believing their imagination. You actually believe that they are lying to themselves! Actually, you may even think that they are... lying (period)? Is that what you mean? You consider them to be liars? Or as you said before "charlatans"? Maybe not, but you are doing that by inference, that is very sneaky, not very nice, not very nice at all. On this topic, aren't you suggesting that pretty well everyone, except for some passed away sage and some 'probably realised sage', is deranged, deluded, as though of "no real validity" (Your words with a bit of twisting on my part I admit. :-) > So if people want to worship K and experiences, the mind > obliges, even to the extent of siddhis etc. > However it is all in the area of belief and worship and > has no real validity Love, Tony...Wim. PS. I don't expect that I will filter you from my Inbox soon, you have inspired me to make my best picture yet... :-) I even turned it into an attachment, I may even be attached to you... Oh gosh, my dear Tony, what's happening to us...? And by the way I admire your resilience... but you know, you don't need it! Thanks anyway! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release 8/7/2001 Attachment: (image/jpeg) Yin Yang Soap.jpg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2001 Report Share Posted August 9, 2001 , "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote: Namaste, Ramana was talking of the heart not the heart centre which is a mental construct. The heart is the self and is extant. The mind must be resolved into the Heart/Self not the Heart Centre....ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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