Jan Sultan/ Deep Sleep

[Guest guest]

Hello Harsha,

 

Where can I see this article? I went to your site but could not find such

an article. Please give exact link to article or post it here for

everybodys benefit.

Thank you for the fantastic job that you are doing.

______________________

With Love,

Cyber Dervish

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*********************************************

Hi Jan, the following dialogue in a different context may shed some light

for you on the similarity between Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Deep Sleep. See my

response to Sri Murthyji's comment.

 

Love to all

Harsha

******************************************************************

 

Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy]

 

While agreeing with shri Harshaji about shri RamaNa maharShi's

teachings, I do not see a difference in this context of what

swami Dayanandaji is saying and what shri RamaNa maharShi was

saying. Please see in this context shri RamaNa's sayings,

for e.g. at http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/crumbs.htm

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

----

*************************************************

Response from Harsha:

 

Sri Murthyji, we are reading from different perspectives. With all due

respect, Swami Dayanandaji's words do not capture the essence of Nirvikalpa

Samadhi.

 

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not like being in a coma or in deep sleep as Swami

Dayanandaji appears to suggest and the impact of Nirvikalpa is not like that

of waking up from deep sleep or a coma.

 

Here is the difference. A person who goes to sleep communes with the Self

unconsciously. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi the communion is fully *conscious*.

 

It is clearly recognized in Nirvikalpa Samadhi that there is no break in

continuity of consciousness. There is Only Fullness of Consciousness. Due to

this, the person who opens his eyes from Nirvikalpa has realized the

continuity of the essential principle of consciousness from the waking state

to the deep sleep state and back again to the waking state.

 

He has gone through the complete cycle *Consciously* and Knows without

thought or doubt the True Self-Nature. Such a person Knows, "It Is Just Me

in every state! It is Me (as Pure Consciousness) even in the total absence

of the mind! I am Truly Sat-Chit-Ananda! I AM ETERNAL AND WHOLE AND EXIST

WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT WHATSOEVER!" These are not words but actual experiences

which words barely can express.

 

In Mano Laya, the mind lies absorbed in the Self but due to latent

tendencies tends to rise up again. However, when the mind *consciously*

comes out of the Self, it is literally completely saturated with the

Self-Light, and realizes it has always been infused with the Light of

Awareness, the Light of the Heart, which is never absent! Consciousness

cannot become forgetful of itself. I don't know how to explain it any

better, but it does not become ignorant again in the same way. The

conviction, knowledge, and the perpetual vital recognition of one who has

communed with the Self *consciously* has a different quality altogether.

Only total mukti has not been obtained due to remaining vasanas. Ramana

Maharshi has stated that deep enquiry (self-awareness) must continue in

order to uproot all these tendencies. That is not meant to downplay the

significance of Nirvikalpa Samadhi, but to only point at the importance of

steadying the experience in all states.

 

Here are Ramana Maharshi's words that you gave the reference to. By the way,

Sri Ramana had many more conversations on the topic which can shed more

light. I will address a second point after that.

 

Devotee: What is samadhi?

 

Bhagavan: When the mind is in communion with the Self in darkness, it is

called nidra (sleep) i.e. the involution of the mind in ignorance.

Involution in a conscious or wakeful state is called samadhi. Samadhi is

continuous inherence in the Self in a waking state. Nidra or sleep is also

inherence in the Self but in an unconscious state. In sahaja samadhi the

communion is continuous.

_________________-

Now Murthyji, we come to the second point. That of the distinction between

Nirvikalpa and Sahaj Samadhi. Nirvikalpa in most cases is a step towards the

Sahaj state, sometimes immediate, but generally followed by continued

Self-Awareness.

_____________________

 

Again, Ramana Maharshi describes it as follows:

 

Bhagavan: The involution of the mind in the Self, but without its

destruction, is kevala nirvikalpa samadhi. There are four obstacles in this,

namely, vacillation of:

i. mind

ii. life breath or prana

iii. body,

iv. drishti.

 

In kevala nirvikalpa samadhi one is not free from vasanas and does not,

therefore, attain mukti. Only after the samskaras have been destroyed can

one attain salvation.

____________

So we see Ramana Maharshi saying that all the latent tendencies must be

destroyed before attaining mukti by continuous Self-Awareness. However,

Nirvikalpa Samadhi, being a *conscious communion* with the Self, reveals

fully the nature of Self-Awareness and shows the way to mukti.

 

One notable incident that comes to mind is that of Kunju Swami meeting Sri

Ramana and obtaining the experience of Self many times in Sri Ramana's

presence and then going home. Later he came back and asked the Sage, why the

experience was intermittent. Ramana Maharshi then read to him from Kaivalya

Navneeta and explained how continuous practice was necessary to steady the

experience.

 

Again Sri Ramana's words on Sahaj Samadhi.

_________________________________

 

D: When can one practice sahaja samadhi?

 

B: Even from the beginning. Even though one practices kevala nirvikalpa

samadhi for years together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas, he will

not attain salvation.

 

_________________________________

What does Sri Ramana mean when he says from the beginning? He means that our

state is truly Sahaj! So we should not think of ourselves as ignorant and

that we should practice the Sahaj state (of Self-Awareness) from the very

beginning until it becomes recognized as truly Sahaj! We should have that

firm conviction with devoted Self-Awareness, that regardless of any

experiences we have had, and regardless of any latent tendencies, our True

Nature is Pure, Stainless, and Self-Evident as Pure Consciousness. This is

the path of uprooting the latent tendencies.

 

Love to all

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Hi Harsha,

>Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not like being in a coma or in deep sleep as Swami

>Dayanandaji appears to suggest and the impact of Nirvikalpa is not like that

>of waking up from deep sleep or a coma.

>

>Here is the difference. A person who goes to sleep communes with the Self

>unconsciously. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi the communion is fully *conscious*.

>

>It is clearly recognized in Nirvikalpa Samadhi that there is no break in

>continuity of consciousness. There is Only Fullness of Consciousness. Due to

>this, the person who opens his eyes from Nirvikalpa has realized the

>continuity of the essential principle of consciousness from the waking state

>to the deep sleep state and back again to the waking state.

>

>He has gone through the complete cycle *Consciously* and Knows without

>thought or doubt the True Self-Nature. Such a person Knows, "It Is Just Me

>in every state! It is Me (as Pure Consciousness) even in the total absence

>of the mind! I am Truly Sat-Chit-Ananda! I AM ETERNAL AND WHOLE AND EXIST

>WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT WHATSOEVER!" These are not words but actual experiences

>which words barely can express.

>

>In Mano Laya, the mind lies absorbed in the Self but due to latent

>tendencies tends to rise up again. However, when the mind *consciously*

>comes out of the Self, it is literally completely saturated with the

>Self-Light, and realizes it has always been infused with the Light of

>Awareness, the Light of the Heart, which is never absent! Consciousness

>cannot become forgetful of itself. I don't know how to explain it any

>better, but it does not become ignorant again in the same way. The

>conviction, knowledge, and the perpetual vital recognition of one who has

>communed with the Self *consciously* has a different quality altogether.

 

This is beautiful and quite clear.

>Only total mukti has not been obtained due to remaining vasanas. Ramana

>Maharshi has stated that deep enquiry (self-awareness) must continue in

>order to uproot all these tendencies. That is not meant to downplay the

>significance of Nirvikalpa Samadhi, but to only point at the importance of

>steadying the experience in all states.

 

Continuing deep enquiry in order to root out all the latent tendencies...

 

but -

>D: When can one practice sahaja samadhi?

>

>B: Even from the beginning. Even though one practices kevala nirvikalpa

>samadhi for years together,

 

This puzzles me. Is kevala nirvikalpa samadhi the same as what you have

described as Nirvikalpa Samadhi? Going into Brahman, the Godhead, the All?

 

And is Ramana speaking of one going into the All many times for years and

years?

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Dear everyone,

 

May I, for now, suggest that Nirvikalpa Samadhi has nothing much to do with

what we in the west call "deep sleep" The word consciousness or awareness,

better not be brought into the discussion either... lest we get sent off

track...

I will, when I have more time..., (have an intensive week long client)

explain.

Associating N. S. with the words "deep sleep" or "sleep" or something

"to do

with consciousness... or not..." (:-) will not make N. S. easily reclaimable

for people who have lost track of the realization of living the

"whatchamicallit)" state of being.

 

Hint: N.S. not something ultimate, it is something of ever-lasting

"primary-ness"

It starts with the answer to "Who, what, where, how, (not why or when) am

I, before I am born"

It is definitely not attainable... if anything it is retrievable... or

reclaimable re-cognizable.

 

Love, Wim

 

>

> Dharma [deva]

> Sunday, August 12, 2001 2:24 AM

>

> Re: Jan Sultan/ Deep Sleep

>

>

> Hi Harsha,

>

> >Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not like being in a coma or in deep sleep as Swami

> >Dayanandaji appears to suggest and the impact of Nirvikalpa is

> not like that

> >of waking up from deep sleep or a coma.

> >

> >Here is the difference. A person who goes to sleep communes with the Self

> >unconsciously. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi the communion is fully *conscious*.

> >

> >It is clearly recognized in Nirvikalpa Samadhi that there is no break in

> >continuity of consciousness. There is Only Fullness of

> Consciousness. Due to

> >this, the person who opens his eyes from Nirvikalpa has realized the

> >continuity of the essential principle of consciousness from the

> waking state

> >to the deep sleep state and back again to the waking state.

> >

> >He has gone through the complete cycle *Consciously* and Knows without

> >thought or doubt the True Self-Nature. Such a person Knows, "It

> Is Just Me

> >in every state! It is Me (as Pure Consciousness) even in the

> total absence

> >of the mind! I am Truly Sat-Chit-Ananda! I AM ETERNAL AND WHOLE AND EXIST

> >WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT WHATSOEVER!" These are not words but actual

> experiences

> >which words barely can express.

> >

> >In Mano Laya, the mind lies absorbed in the Self but due to latent

> >tendencies tends to rise up again. However, when the mind *consciously*

> >comes out of the Self, it is literally completely saturated with the

> >Self-Light, and realizes it has always been infused with the Light of

> >Awareness, the Light of the Heart, which is never absent! Consciousness

> >cannot become forgetful of itself. I don't know how to explain it any

> >better, but it does not become ignorant again in the same way. The

> >conviction, knowledge, and the perpetual vital recognition of one who has

> >communed with the Self *consciously* has a different quality altogether.

>

> This is beautiful and quite clear.

>

> >Only total mukti has not been obtained due to remaining vasanas. Ramana

> >Maharshi has stated that deep enquiry (self-awareness) must continue in

> >order to uproot all these tendencies. That is not meant to downplay the

> >significance of Nirvikalpa Samadhi, but to only point at the

> importance of

> >steadying the experience in all states.

>

> Continuing deep enquiry in order to root out all the latent tendencies...

>

> but -

>

> >D: When can one practice sahaja samadhi?

> >

> >B: Even from the beginning. Even though one practices kevala nirvikalpa

> >samadhi for years together,

>

> This puzzles me. Is kevala nirvikalpa samadhi the same as what you have

> described as Nirvikalpa Samadhi? Going into Brahman, the

> Godhead, the All?

>

> And is Ramana speaking of one going into the All many times for years and

> years?

>

> Love,

> Dharma

>

>

>

> /join

>

>

>

>

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

> sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and

> exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves

> rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from

> Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come

> and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart

> Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A

> true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> a.

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

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