Guest guest Posted August 12, 2001 Report Share Posted August 12, 2001 Firstly many thanks to all those who contributed to my question. I have this theory ... My wife has vivid dreams almost every night. I don't remember my dreams, in fact I haven't remembered my dreams for a long time. The scientists say that we all dream and I believe them. Which means maybe my dreams are boring or unemotional so I don't remember them. Could it be that we in a similar manner don't recall anything from our deep sleep because nothing really happens there? The only reason we could remember something from deep sleep would be if something new or exciting happened. How can anything new happen in the eternal deep silence! Just a thought. ______________________ With Love, Cyber Dervish ```````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2001 Report Share Posted August 12, 2001 Hi Jan, >My wife has vivid dreams almost every night. I don't remember my dreams, in >fact I haven't remembered my dreams for a long time. The scientists say >that we all dream and I believe them. Which means maybe my dreams are >boring or unemotional so I don't remember them. If you want to remember them, put a tablet and a pen beside your bed and make up your mind that you want to remember. As soon as you wake up, write down everything you can remember. That usually encourages your subconscious to make your dreams more available, and it gets better with practice. If that doesn't work after several nights, you could set an alarm to wake you in the middle of the night... if you can catch yourself during a dream and write it down, you can start getting into the habit. In the lab they wake the subjects when they see the eyelids fluttering, but at home you just have to play hit-or-miss with the alarm clock. Unless you can persuade your wife to sit up and watch for your eyelids fluttering. )) Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 Hi Jan, The idea of nothing happening in deep sleep.... That nothing happens in deep sleep is partly built in to the very definition of deep sleep. The so-called state is defined by the experience, not vice versa. For example - let's say a person had a period of deep sleep in which nothing happened. Then something very subtle happened, such as flickering lights or changing colors or the feeling of ascending to ever higher planes of greater subtlety. We'd then call it a dream, and no longer deep sleep... We can't really say that in deep sleep that something may really be happening but I'm just unaware of what it is. There's absolutely no evidence for anything happening - that's the main reason we call it deep sleep, defined by experience. Even the REM experiments and the brain wave measurements during different parts of the night. They have been mapped to different subjective states. But notice that the subjective state is first taken for granted, and the physiological measurements are like an overlay on top of it - they don't define deep sleep, they merely further describe it... Some advaita teachings liken deep sleep to pure consciousness itself. Deep sleep as the background to all phenomena, even the phenomenal absence of phenomena. So therefore according to this view, deep sleep is never not present. Love, --Greg At 10:04 PM 8/12/01 +0300, Jan Sultan wrote: >Firstly many thanks to all those who contributed to my question. I have >this theory ... > >My wife has vivid dreams almost every night. I don't remember my dreams, in >fact I haven't remembered my dreams for a long time. The scientists say >that we all dream and I believe them. Which means maybe my dreams are >boring or unemotional so I don't remember them. > >Could it be that we in a similar manner don't recall anything from our deep >sleep because nothing really happens there? The only reason we could >remember something from deep sleep would be if something new or exciting >happened. How can anything new happen in the eternal deep silence! > >Just a thought. > >______________________ >With Love, >Cyber Dervish >```````````````````````````````````````` > > >/join > > > > > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 Hi Greg et al, >There's absolutely no evidence for >anything happening - that's the main reason we call it deep sleep, defined >by experience. Even the REM experiments and the brain wave measurements >during different parts of the night. A friend of mine, a teacher with long experience, let a friend check her brain waves during deep meditation. He couldn't believe what he was seeing! I haven't tried it, but I think it should be easy enough to register delta waves while fully aware. The process of learning the inner meditation is one of learning to put the body/brain to sleep and stay awake or aware. >Some advaita teachings liken deep sleep to pure consciousness itself. Deep >sleep as the background to all phenomena, even the phenomenal absence of >phenomena. So therefore according to this view, deep sleep is never not >present. Or we could say that pure consciousness (or pure awareness) is never not present. In my experience the boundaries between these states become ever more tenuous... I suppose the definitions do too. I sometimes go to sleep (rest from outer awareness) while Kundalini work is going on. I wake while it's still going on - or not. Doesn't matter. I lie down with a book, and when I realize that what I'm reading or seeing isn't what's on the page, I've slipped into the dream realm and it's time to put the book down for a while. A friend and student of mine meditates during sleep... and later dreams and watches his dreams. The goal is continuous consciousness, which means 1) consciousness/awareness on all planes at the same time, and 2) continuity of these states we call waking/dreaming/deep sleep... Jan is probably speaking from personal experience when he says: >In deep dreamless sleep, mentation stops for a good reason but the perceptive >remains functioning at a level of "alarm responsiveness". Something one >can get aware of, >when daytime mentation approaches that of deep, dreamless sleep: Peace! >Without a few hours of "daily Peace" one would get mad - system overload! >And that also explains why some, instead of sleep, can enjoy samadhi. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 On 8/13/01 at 1:26 AM Dharma wrote: ºHi Greg et al, º º>There's absolutely no evidence for º>anything happening - that's the main reason we call it deep sleep, defined º>by experience. Even the REM experiments and the brain wave measurements º>during different parts of the night. º ºA friend of mine, a teacher with long experience, let a friend check her ºbrain waves during deep meditation. He couldn't believe what he was ºseeing! I haven't tried it, but I think it should be easy enough to ºregister delta waves while fully aware. º ºThe process of learning the inner meditation is one of learning to put the ºbody/brain to sleep and stay awake or aware. º º>Some advaita teachings liken deep sleep to pure consciousness itself. ºDeep º>sleep as the background to all phenomena, even the phenomenal absence of º>phenomena. So therefore according to this view, deep sleep is never not º>present. º ºOr we could say that pure consciousness (or pure awareness) is never not ºpresent. º ºIn my experience the boundaries between these states become ever more ºtenuous... I suppose the definitions do too. I sometimes go to sleep º(rest from outer awareness) while Kundalini work is going on. I wake while ºit's still going on - or not. Doesn't matter. I lie down with a book, and ºwhen I realize that what I'm reading or seeing isn't what's on the page, ºI've slipped into the dream realm and it's time to put the book down for a ºwhile. A friend and student of mine meditates during sleep... and later ºdreams and watches his dreams. º ºThe goal is continuous consciousness, which means 1) ºconsciousness/awareness on all planes at the same time, and 2) continuity ºof these states we call waking/dreaming/deep sleep... º ºJan is probably speaking from personal experience when he says: º º>In deep dreamless sleep, mentation stops for a good reason but the ºperceptive º>remains functioning at a level of "alarm responsiveness". Something one º>can get aware of, º>when daytime mentation approaches that of deep, dreamless sleep: Peace! º>Without a few hours of "daily Peace" one would get mad - system overload! º>And that also explains why some, instead of sleep, can enjoy samadhi. º ºLove, ºDharma Yes, in the course of events deep sleep seemingly became less deep and now it's comparable to that of the cat - alert yet relaxed even when asleep, without dreaming. Not a surprise then that i can sleep anywhere when tired, even in positions considered "difficult". Some noises however still are linked to heavy tanks driving and nearing (i was born during WWII) and that hasn't been 'reprogrammed' yet Love, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 >At 8/13/2001-06:58 AM, you wrote: >>Some advaita teachings liken deep sleep to pure consciousness itself. Deep >>sleep as the background to all phenomena, even the phenomenal absence of >>phenomena. So therefore according to this view, deep sleep is never not >>present. >> >>Love, >> >>--Greg > >In other words deep sleep is the absence of all activity! [The body and >brain are of course continuing to do their maintenance work.] It is just >the conscious mind/ego that is asleep? I just knew Nisargadatta would have an input for this too. Check this out: Consciousness is always of movement, of change. There can be no such thing a changeless consciousness. Changelessness wipes out consciousness immediately. A man deprived of outer or inner sensations blanks out, or goes into the birthless and deathless state. Only when spirit and matter come together, consciousness is born. (479) - Nisargadatta Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in DEEP SLEEP. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience. Since it is awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore, the very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at once recognized as the original, basic experience, which is life itself, and also love and joy. (29) ______________________ With Love, Cyber Dervish ```````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 Hi Jan, This is apparently an odd, un-advaitic result. But Nisargadatta used the words in a slightly different way. For him, -"consciousness" is about equivalent to what orthodox advaita calls the "Jagarita-Sthana," or "jagat" for short. Basically, the waking-state. -"awareness" is equivalent to what orthodox advaita calls Brahman, and what neo- or Western-advaita calls "Consciousness" with a capital C. So for Nisargadatta, consciousness cancels out consciousness, and it all happens within the changelessness of awareness. And deep sleep is just another passing thing in awareness. Om! --Greg At 06:15 PM 8/13/01 +0300, Jan Sultan wrote: > >>At 8/13/2001-06:58 AM, you wrote: >>>Some advaita teachings liken deep sleep to pure consciousness itself. Deep >>>sleep as the background to all phenomena, even the phenomenal absence of >>>phenomena. So therefore according to this view, deep sleep is never not >>>present. >>> >>>Love, >>> >>>--Greg >> >>In other words deep sleep is the absence of all activity! [The body and >>brain are of course continuing to do their maintenance work.] It is just >>the conscious mind/ego that is asleep? > >I just knew Nisargadatta would have an input for this too. Check this out: > >Consciousness is always of movement, of change. There can be no such thing >a changeless consciousness. Changelessness wipes out consciousness >immediately. A man deprived of outer or inner sensations blanks out, or >goes into the birthless and deathless state. Only when spirit and matter >come together, consciousness is born. (479) - Nisargadatta > >Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, >uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on >contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be >no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without >consciousness, as in DEEP SLEEP. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is >relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. >Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, >calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience. Since it >is awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is awareness in every >state of consciousness. Therefore, the very consciousness of being >conscious is already a movement in awareness. Interest in your stream of >consciousness takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at once >recognized as the original, basic experience, which is life itself, and >also love and joy. (29) >______________________ >With Love, >Cyber Dervish >```````````````````````````````````````` > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 , "jb" <janb@a...> wrote:> º > º>In deep dreamless sleep, mentation stops for a good reason but the > ºperceptive > º>remains functioning at a level of "alarm responsiveness". Something one > º>can get aware of, > º>when daytime mentation approaches that of deep, dreamless sleep: Peace! > º>Without a few hours of "daily Peace" one would get mad - system overload! > º>And that also explains why some, instead of sleep, can enjoy samadhi. Namaste All, I think with deep sleep, especially in the daytime, there is a subtle programming for the body mind to awaken in case of disturbance. The 'I' thought doesn't immediately follow and consequently one is unaware of where one is for a few moments, until the I-mind arises. Then there is Yoga Nidra, in which there is no tossing or turning or movement at all. In this laya state complete rest is obtained and any meditation that was being done continues. This seems to be the crossroads to samadhi, for it neither normal deep sleep or being awake. Then there is coma which is at different levels, mental and physical, some aware of sounds some not. It is all a movement throught the various sheaths, they as the body don't disappear or stop functioning completey as such, as the body still also breathes and lives. However the mind/I-thought is in the causal ignorance. It is the lower mind that is programmed to react to a sound, Tanks in the case of Jan, and Heavy Bombers in my case!!!The residual connection or sheath in the deep sleep state then reacts to the state of the other sheaths and awakens.......ONS....IMO...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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