Krishnamurti and Kundalini

[Guest guest]

"You [Tony] say you've consulted all the great saints and realizers

and then give us a list of three? Agreed, Buddha, Krishnamurti(was

it?) and Ramana Maharshi don't teach about Kundalini, and didn't

ostensibly give Kundalini initiation. You can be sure, however, that

each of them has experienced it" In a little known book *Leaves

from a Diary* by Leena Sarabhai, Krishnamurti is quoted as saying, "I

started to make experiments on spiritual growth. I had heard about

*kundalini* so I tried to develop that condition and read about it in

a book called *The Serpent Power*...As a result of my experiments over

the last six or seven years to awaken the *kundalini,* it was released

from the *chakra* at the base of the spinal cord... "

Love, Hillary

[Guest guest]

Tony writes:

 

[ However

in my present research into this phenomena, I have found that

jivanmuktis say K doesn't result in liberation.]

 

Hi Tony!

 

Well, yes and no, LOL! As Ramana says, "Mukti, i.e., liberation, is not to

be gained hereafter. It is there for ever , here and now." p.326

With and without K, I presume! ) Do you make a distinction between

Liberation and Realisation?

 

But I agree with Jody Krishnamurti was considered by many to be an

Enlightened Sage.

 

[Which is quite logical

because it is in energy..I am now coming to the final speculation or

decision that the energy is in fact the mind cleansing itself.]

 

Well, mind cleansing can certainly have consequences! )

 

[That people who do pranayama to raise it, achieve siddhis, but those

that do not do a spiritual practice of sadhana experience dangerous

difficulties. So perhaps it is the sadhana itself that raises the K

and the raising itself is just a byproduct.]

 

I disagree here. As you know, I've done no spiritual practices, and I've

experienced little difficulty.

 

[All is prana anyway, there is only karma and prana, and I think that K

is much misunderstood and misread, it cannot achieve liberation for it

is in the mind, so is mental.]

 

For me it results in a mind bypass!

 

[Giving it some validity is only to the extent of siddhis, and the

results of what sadhana is practised in the tantra or yoga, not the

prana particularly itself.]

 

I gather you consider Bliss a siddhi. What is the purpose of "liberation,"

for you? Eternal life? Union with God? You are already *there.* We all

are! What's the point for you?

 

[K is the action of the prana of the mind, the mind rises in the Heart

therefore must die there not at the sahasrara, which is just in

energy.]

 

It is "intelligent" energy. It is not just a yawn.

 

[i believe it doesn't move as such but that our attention does, and

that the snake theory is just that, an anology. Kundalini just means

earings anyway and refers to the adornment of practitioners in the

past.]

 

Well, I guess you can call it an analogy in that there is not an actual snake

there! ) But believe me it is quite *real* and at times feels as though

a snake were zipping up the spine--which probably gave rise to the

description.

 

[There are energy cakras and nadis, there is prana, there are sheaths,

but most of what is written of K is illusion and imagination or

misinterpretation..]

 

Not illusion or imagination! ) Lots of different interpretations, I guess.

 

[What I don't believe is that raising prana from the lower physical

cakras can result in any spiritual developement, or even moksha.]

 

Of course it can. Why shouldn't it? It clears away preconceived

notions--those that say we are not already liberated! ) And anyway, what

do you have against the lower physical chakras??

 

Love, Hillary

 

 

 

 

 

Love, Hillary

[Guest guest]

, druout@a... wrote:

> Eric writes:

>

> "You [Tony] say

> you've consulted all the great saints and realizers and then give us

a list

> of three? Agreed, Buddha, Krishnamurti(was it?) and Ramana Maharshi

don't

> teach about Kundalini, and didn't ostensibly give Kundalini

initiation.

> You can be sure, however, that each of them has experienced it"

>

> In a little known book *Leaves from a Diary* by Leena Sarabhai,

Krishnamurti

> is quoted as saying, "I started to make experiments on spiritual

growth. I

> had heard about *kundalini* so I tried to develop that condition and

read

> about it in a book called *The Serpent Power*...As a result of my

experiments

> over the last six or seven years to awaken the *kundalini,* it was

released

> from the *chakra* at the base of the spinal cord... "

>

> Love, Hillary

 

Namaste Hillary,

 

Thank you for that info, I note that he wasn't a jivanmukti. However

in my present research into this phenomena, I have found that

jivanmuktis say K doesn't result in liberation. Which is quite logical

because it is in energy..I am now coming to the final speculation or

decision that the energy is in fact the mind cleansing itself.

 

That people who do pranayama to raise it, achieve siddhis, but those

that do not do a spiritual practice of sadhana experience dangerous

difficulties. So perhaps it is the sadhana itself that raises the K

and the raising itself is just a byproduct.

 

It is said in the Brahma Sutras that the soul/entity leaves the body

via the sushumna, but doesn't mention the citrini nadi. It is logical

that the entity leave by that route as that is the common area of all

the cakras of the subtle body. As the jiva resolves itself into local

prana and then into more universal prana, this is natural. For it also

has to preserve its constituents for a new body, unless it is in

moksha with Nirguan Brahman then they resolve completely into the

universal prana.

 

All is prana anyway, there is only karma and prana, and I think that K

is much misunderstood and misread, it cannot achieve liberation for it

is in the mind, so is mental.

 

Giving it some validity is only to the extent of siddhis, and the

results of what sadhana is practised in the tantra or yoga, not the

prana particularly itself.

 

K is the action of the prana of the mind, the mind rises in the Heart

therefore must die there not at the sahasrara, which is just in

energy.

 

I believe it doesn't move as such but that our attention does, and

that the snake theory is just that, an anology. Kundalini just means

earings anyway and refers to the adornment of practitioners in the

past.

 

There are energy cakras and nadis, there is prana, there are sheaths,

but most of what is written of K is illusion and imagination or

misinterpretation........ONS.......Tony.

[Guest guest]

Hi Hillary,

I read a biography about him, K., that described a period of very

intense kundalini activity in his 20's. Every night he would undergo

this physically tormenting process. Annie Besant and those who

personally looked after him at the time certainly belived it was

kundalini. Perhaps the almost life threatening nature of his own

experience was a reason not to generally give out initiation.

However, 2 people over at NDS who personally met him, enough to shake

hands, felt an energy transfer happened. So did a lot of people who

have described their encounters with him. Something not labeled a

shaktipat initiation can nontheless happen around any such beings.

Mine was given quite a jolt listening to some Tibetan monks do chants

(in person). By whatever name this might be called, it is a reality.

Love,

gloria

- druout (AT) aol (DOT) com

Monday, August 27, 2001 12:54 PM

Krishnamurti and Kundalini

Eric writes: "You [Tony] say you've consulted all the great saints and

realizers and then give us a list of three? Agreed, Buddha,

Krishnamurti(was it?) and Ramana Maharshi don't teach about

Kundalini, and didn't ostensibly give Kundalini initiation. You can

be sure, however, that each of them has experienced it" In a little

known book *Leaves from a Diary* by Leena Sarabhai, Krishnamurti is

quoted as saying, "I started to make experiments on spiritual growth.

I had heard about *kundalini* so I tried to develop that condition

and read about it in a book called *The Serpent Power*...As a result

of my experiments over the last six or seven years to awaken the

*kundalini,* it was released from the *chakra* at the base of the

spinal cord... " Love, Hillary

[Guest guest]

, "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

 

[snip]

> Namaste Hillary,

>

> Thank you for that info, I note that he wasn't a jivanmukti.

 

And I note that you are completely incapable of making this

determination.

 

Note to Hillary: Thanks so much for doing this research and

derailing Tony's little anti-kundalini diatribes. It won't stop him

from expressing his wholly uninformed opinions, but at least

the rest of us will see just how far his statements lie from

the truth.

[Guest guest]

, jodyrrr@h... wrote:

> , "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

>

> [snip]

>

> > Namaste Hillary,

> >

> > Thank you for that info, I note that he wasn't a jivanmukti.

>

> And I note that you are completely incapable of making this

> determination.

>

> Note to Hillary: Thanks so much for doing this research and

> derailing Tony's little anti-kundalini diatribes. It won't stop him

> from expressing his wholly uninformed opinions, but at least

> the rest of us will see just how far his statements lie from

> the truth.

 

Namaste Jody,

 

" The mind itself is the life current, the ignorant say that in form

it looks like a coiled serpent. The six subtle centres are merely

mental pictures and are meant for beginners in yoga." Ramana Maharshi,

Collected works by Arthur Osborne, p 29.

 

So I suppose it depend on the level of his audience..ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

, druout@a... wrote:> misinterpretation..]

>

> Not illusion or imagination! ) Lots of different

interpretations, I guess.

>

> [What I don't believe is that raising prana from the lower physical

> cakras can result in any spiritual developement, or even moksha.]

>

> Of course it can. Why shouldn't it? It clears away preconceived

> notions--those that say we are not already liberated! ) And

anyway, what

> do you have against the lower physical chakras??

>

> Love, Hillary

>

Namaste Hillary,

 

Bliss is an attribute and an experience therefore is an illusion

ultimately.

 

I have nothing against the lower cakras, but isn't it said that they

are the animal ones and that the spiritual start at the Heart Cakra?

 

I don't believe that energy can achieve liberation from illusion

itself, as in union at the sahasrara. The ego mind has to return to

the Heart Centre and die there, as per Ramana et al.

 

I do believe however that through Bhakti one can achieve brahmaloka or

the path of Saguna Brahman, which results in moksha at pralaya.

 

Advaita is necessary for Nirguna Brahman moksha.

 

ONS.....Tony.

[Guest guest]

, "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> , druout@a... wrote:> misinterpretation..]

> >

>

> I have nothing against the lower cakras, but isn't it said that

they

> are the animal ones and that the spiritual start at the Heart Cakra?

>

 

Dear Tony,

 

Well, Its also been said(and it's been my experience) that *all* the

chakras are spiritual centers. Perhaps the lower chakras are animal

ones for animals. It's balance that's important, I think.

 

Love to you Tony,

 

Hillary

[Guest guest]

, druout@a... wrote:

> , "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> > , druout@a... wrote:>

misinterpretation..]

> > >

> >

> > I have nothing against the lower cakras, but isn't it said that

> they

> > are the animal ones and that the spiritual start at the Heart

Cakra?

> >

>

> Dear Tony,

>

> Well, Its also been said(and it's been my experience) that *all* the

> chakras are spiritual centers. Perhaps the lower chakras are animal

> ones for animals. It's balance that's important, I think.

>

> Love to you Tony,

 

Namaste Hillary,

 

I think the lower cakras are transducers for the physical body, the

energy body and the lower mind. The higher cakras relate to the buddhi

or awareness sheath and the bliss sheath........ONS....Tony.

>

> Hillary

[Guest guest]

---

> Well, I guess you can call it an analogy in that there is not an

actual snake

> there! ) But believe me it is quite *real* and at times feels

as though

> a snake were zipping up the spine--which probably gave rise to the

> description.

>

> Love, Hillary

 

Hi Hillary:

This whole dialogue (polylogue) about kundalini is beyond me because

I never could "raise" it. Until you said that thing about the snake

zipping up the spine. So THAT is the Kundalini energy. I have done

that for years to wipe out fatigue and implant suggestions to myself

as subliminal activators. I call it up when I need to concentrate

too. Sometimes it takes over for a long time and shakes me when an

important lost memory is about to surface.

Am I right. I sigh usually after I feel it. Does that sound like

the Kundalini energy?

Yours truly

Bob G.

[Guest guest]

It's "spiritually hip and cool" to leave out the "h's" when using

Sanskrit words, dontcha know... make sure to keep saying "cakras"

and "santi," it shows you know how to pronounce the words... <loud

laugh>...

 

P.S... insert an occasional extra "h" too for extra effect

(Krishnamurthi)... and make sure to leave off the "a's" at the end

once in a while...

 

Cheers,

 

Omkar ;-)

 

, "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> Namaste Hillary,

>

> I think the lower cakras are transducers for the physical body, the

> energy body and the lower mind. The higher cakras relate to the

buddhi

> or awareness sheath and the bliss sheath........ONS....Tony.

> >

> > Hillary

[Guest guest]

, "Omkara" <coresite@h...> wrote:

>

> It's "spiritually hip and cool" to leave out the "h's" when using

> Sanskrit words, dontcha know... make sure to keep saying "cakras"

> and "santi," it shows you know how to pronounce the words... <loud

> laugh>...

 

Hi Omkar! LOL! I stand corrected!

 

Tony, I know you won't consider John Selby much of an authority on

Cakras but he writes:

 

"At this point in history it is ecologically as well as spiritually

important that we break free of both the Hindu and Christian

attitudes that judge the lowly realty of the Earth as negative, as

sinful, even as the domain of the Devil himself, and that revere only

heavenly, nonearthly dimensions of consciousness. Especially from

ecological points of view, "down" must be viewed as ultimately

beautiful because reverence for the planet is absolutely essential if

human life on this planet is to continue."

 

He continues:

 

"So the Root Chakra, which provides us with our connection to Mother

Earth at a most primal level, should be held as equal to the Crown

Chakra at the top of the head. This makes perfect sense, as we will

see in practice later on, if we think of the Heart Chakra as the

center of kundalini consciousness.

 

"The chakras are in fact paired, especially in the Taoist tradition

of China. Let me make this pairing of chakras clear right from the

start..."

 

Perhaps by seeing the lower cakras as lesser, you are causing an

imbalance in your system, actually preventing that which you seek.

 

Love, Hillary

 

 

>

> Omkar ;-)

>

> , "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

>

> > Namaste Hillary,

> >

> > I think the lower cakras are transducers for the physical body,

the

> > energy body and the lower mind. The higher cakras relate to the

> buddhi

> > or awareness sheath and the bliss sheath........ONS....Tony.

> > >

> > > Hillary

[Guest guest]

, bgbbyg@a... wrote:

> ---

> Hi Hillary:

> This whole dialogue (polylogue) about kundalini is beyond me

because

> I never could "raise" it. Until you said that thing about the

snake

> zipping up the spine. So THAT is the Kundalini energy. I have done

> that for years to wipe out fatigue and implant suggestions to

myself

> as subliminal activators. I call it up when I need to concentrate

> too. Sometimes it takes over for a long time and shakes me when an

> important lost memory is about to surface.

> Am I right. I sigh usually after I feel it. Does that sound like

> the Kundalini energy?

> Yours truly

> Bob G.

 

Dear Bob,

 

It certainly sounds like K energy to me. ) For some people the K

energy up the spine can be traumatically overpowering--it wasn't so

for me. For others it can simply be blissful or gently

metaphysical. I suspect it depends on the amount of fear encountered

and perhaps the amount of energy actually released--whether sudden or

gradual.

 

Love, Hillary

[Guest guest]

, druout@a... wrote:

> , bgbbyg@a... wrote:

> > ---

>

> > Hi Hillary:

> > This whole dialogue (polylogue) about kundalini is beyond me

> because

> > I never could "raise" it. Until you said that thing about the

> snake

> > zipping up the spine. So THAT is the Kundalini energy. I have

done

> > that for years to wipe out fatigue and implant suggestions to

> myself

> > as subliminal activators. I call it up when I need to

concentrate

> > too. Sometimes it takes over for a long time and shakes me when

an

> > important lost memory is about to surface.

> > Am I right. I sigh usually after I feel it. Does that sound

like

> > the Kundalini energy?

> > Yours truly

> > Bob G.

>

> Dear Bob,

>

> It certainly sounds like K energy to me. ) For some people the K

> energy up the spine can be traumatically overpowering--it wasn't so

> for me. For others it can simply be blissful or gently

> metaphysical. I suspect it depends on the amount of fear

encountered

> and perhaps the amount of energy actually released--whether sudden

or

> gradual.

>

> Love, Hillary

 

Dear Hillary

Thanks. It is hard for me to believe that I have missed that

connection all these years. It makes total sense now though. I

always thought of it as "touching the Self".

Gratefully,

Bob G.

[Guest guest]

, Hillary... wrote:

> Tony, I know you won't consider John Selby much of an authority on

> Cakras but he writes:

>

> "At this point in history it is ecologically as well as

spiritually

> important that we break free of both the Hindu and Christian

> attitudes that judge the lowly realty of the Earth as negative, as

> sinful, even as the domain of the Devil himself, and that revere

only

> heavenly, nonearthly dimensions of consciousness. Especially from

> ecological points of view, "down" must be viewed as ultimately

> beautiful because reverence for the planet is absolutely essential

if

> human life on this planet is to continue."

>

> He continues:

>

> "So the Root Chakra, which provides us with our connection to

Mother

> Earth at a most primal level, should be held as equal to the Crown

> Chakra at the top of the head. This makes perfect sense, as we

will

> see in practice later on, if we think of the Heart Chakra as the

> center of kundalini consciousness.

>

> "The chakras are in fact paired, especially in the Taoist tradition

> of China. Let me make this pairing of chakras clear right from the

> start..."

 

 

Hi Hillary,

 

This talk of Selby's reminds me of lemons -- bitter/sour; it's like

the lower chakra. And sugar -- sweet; it's like the upper chakra.

But blend them together, and we now have... lemonade! (heart)

 

Alone, they just are what they are -- lemons and sugar. But

together, yummy! Add a few friends, a front porch swing & rockin'

chairs, some 60's music and we have ourselves some groovy spinning

chakras!

 

Love,

xxxtg

[Guest guest]

the beloved resides in the empty cave that is the sacred heart within all of

us....the path i have used to return to this wisdom is not what matters,

what is mattering is that i started my journey....i am discovering that my

journey is one of love arising into higher love falling to arise

again....the dualities i encounter are endlessly resolved not by mental

concepts (non-duality) but in the mystery of the trinity.....two lovers meet

and become one beloved....mira once said to me, 'the beloved is your abode'

and truly she has become just that....the father (heaven) and the mother/son

(earth) are reconciled in the holy spirit....masculine and feminine are

united in mutual adoration at the mental, physical, emotional and spiritual

levels....brahman and atman are reconciled in the purusha.....as the

ego/mystic mind surrenders each act, each moment to the higher

consciousness/the sacred heart....as in grace i yield to mira, rich harmony

is experienced and the 'lost chord' of heaven resonates within the empty

cave of my heart.....subtly, ever so, gently consciousness arises once

again....namaste....^^~~~~~

 

"Can you give the wisdom of you heart precedence

over the knowledge of your mind?"

-Lao Tzu

 

further up and further in,

 

white wolfe

 

 

 

 

-

<leteegee

<>

Tuesday, August 28, 2001 6:33 AM

Re: Krishnamurti and Kundalini

 

> , Hillary... wrote:

>

> > Tony, I know you won't consider John Selby much of an authority on

> > Cakras but he writes:

> >

> > "At this point in history it is ecologically as well as

> spiritually

> > important that we break free of both the Hindu and Christian

> > attitudes that judge the lowly realty of the Earth as negative, as

> > sinful, even as the domain of the Devil himself, and that revere

> only

> > heavenly, nonearthly dimensions of consciousness. Especially from

> > ecological points of view, "down" must be viewed as ultimately

> > beautiful because reverence for the planet is absolutely essential

> if

> > human life on this planet is to continue."

> >

> > He continues:

> >

> > "So the Root Chakra, which provides us with our connection to

> Mother

> > Earth at a most primal level, should be held as equal to the Crown

> > Chakra at the top of the head. This makes perfect sense, as we

> will

> > see in practice later on, if we think of the Heart Chakra as the

> > center of kundalini consciousness.

> >

> > "The chakras are in fact paired, especially in the Taoist tradition

> > of China. Let me make this pairing of chakras clear right from the

> > start..."

>

>

> Hi Hillary,

>

> This talk of Selby's reminds me of lemons -- bitter/sour; it's like

> the lower chakra. And sugar -- sweet; it's like the upper chakra.

> But blend them together, and we now have... lemonade! (heart)

>

> Alone, they just are what they are -- lemons and sugar. But

> together, yummy! Add a few friends, a front porch swing & rockin'

> chairs, some 60's music and we have ourselves some groovy spinning

> chakras!

>

> Love,

> xxxtg

/join

>

>

>

>

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tony, my dear

> Bliss is an attribute and an experience

> therefore is an illusion ultimately

 

Attributes indeed are illusive as they are about qualities and

qualifications. Experiences though, are not illusive, if they were they

would not be called experiences, Experiences happen, they are dynamic energy

transformations that can be measured. (I am still awaiting YOUR

substantiation that science proves illusion...)

Illusions are mind boggles, experiences are not, although they may boggle

the illusive mind.

 

You know more about illusion than reality... which is knowing nothing at

all. You deny the reality of reality as you even see reality as illusion.

You have not understood a single word by Ramana Maharshi or the like. Yours

may indeed 'ultimately' be a life of illusion, as you so often attest, that

is why you keep seeing it.

> Bliss is an attribute...

 

Bliss? You know just a smidgen about bliss but nothing about glory, both of

which are concomitant with truth. Bliss and glory are truth in action. Truth

without bliss and glory is not truth. Truth is the most concrete substance

and is radiated and "immediated" by glory. There is nothing abstract about

it, truth is real. Truth is the glorious reality of unquestioned existence.

(sat=existence=reality, chit=knowledge=truth, ananda= bliss=glory).

 

Your bliss may, as you have stated before, very well have been of the

illusive kind... Do not however, project your illusions and delusions onto

others.

What you deny yourself, you are begrudging others, even while denying your

own grudges.

> I have nothing against the lower cakras,

> but isn't it said that they are the animal ones

> and that the spiritual start at the Heart Cakra?

 

"Isn't it said...." ???

What is said and by whom?

Deniers seek support from deniers.

The disillusioned seek support from the disillusioned.

Uncertainty supports uncertainty.

Liars seek support from liars.

 

If it is important for you to get your justification from others, why don't

you get counseled by jivanmuktas in the know and the now...

It is easy to quote passed on sages, and pull their wisdom out of context to

fit your unwillingness to surrender, in order to support your admitted

stubbornness...

 

You Tony, you need to relinquish your withholding... you Tony you.

If you know that you are stubborn, why not de-stub yourself.

Nothing wrong with stubbornness when unrecognized, but self recognized

stubbornness becomes the square of same and unless stopped, grows

exponentially...

 

You show all the signs of a bitter, grudgy, stubborn, arrogant, self

righteous, disillusioned and duped old man. You are opinionated, as you say

so yourself, your humour is often harsh, derogatory and demeaning, and you

are not at all generous in your compassion and understanding. You thrive on

wholesale skepticism and judge other fellow beings' authenticity as

illusive. That would be all right if you came to that all by yourself, from

pure and naïve ignorance, but you support your opinions with the least bit

of originality, always quoting and paraphrasing out of context... There has

not been a single authentic thought or conclusion from Tony himself...

 

You are not "liberated and enlightened" as you have so often admitted. So,

why do you take yourself and your opinions so seriously then? You can hardly

support your credibility that way. If in the years that I know you, you

would have started to admit the emergence of your liberation, then you could

indeed take your opinions seriously, but, as you, by your own admittance,

show nothing but a rehash of 'illusion ultimately", what is the good of

showing your continued ignorance? Why do you waste your time promoting your

ignorance rather than liberating yourself ... Everything you have done and

are doing, has been to no avail, you are stuck in a groove, and you cannot

seem to pick up your own needle from your own groove.

> ... the lower cakras, but isn't it said that they are the animal ones...

 

About the chakras:

All seven major energy centres or chakras have to be fully in service and

equally balanced.

To say that higher chakras are of greater importance than lower chakras is

like saying that the top floor of a seven story building is more important

because the "boss" has his penthouse there.

When the foundations / basement floor gives way, the whole building will

fall and all inhabitants may perish.

When the ground floor gives way, the whole building will fall, the

foundations floor will likely be crushed and pretty well all may perish.

When the first floor gives way, pretty well the whole building will fall,

but there may be survivors in the basement and on the ground floor.

When the second floor gives way, the building above it will fall, but there

may be quite a few survivors on the floors below.

When the third floor gives way, maybe half the building will fall, except

there may be a lot of survivors on the floors below.

When the fourth floor gives way, just the topmost part of the building will

fall, most may survive though on the floors below.

When the top floor gives way, except for the penthouse, pretty well the

whole building will be intact, and all but the boss and entourage may

survive.

 

All chakras need to equally support each other...from top down to bottom up,

from the center outward and centripetal.

> I don't believe that energy can achieve liberation from illusion itself...

 

That is just your personal disbelief. When you don't believe it can, it

won't, so suspend your disbelief and it can.

It is that simple...

> The ego mind has to return to the Heart Centre

> and die there, as per Ramana et al.

 

So Tony, what are you waiting for... or are you presiding the verbal

non-dualist federation?

> I do believe however that through Bhakti

> one can achieve brahmaloka or the path of Saguna Brahman,

> which results in moksha at pralaya.

> Advaita is necessary for Nirguna Brahman moksha.

 

Advaita also means not differentiating between Saguna and Nirguna.

 

OK then Tony, this is the moment...

 

Love, Wim

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Tim,

 

You wrote:

> It's "spiritually hip and cool" to leave out the "h's"

> when using Sanskrit words, dontcha know...

> make sure to keep saying "cakras" and "santi,"

> it shows you know how to pronounce the words...

> <loud laugh>...

 

Tony wrote:

> I think the lower cakras are transducers for the

> physical body, the energy body and the lower mind.

> The higher cakras relate to the buddhi or awareness

> sheath and the bliss sheath........

 

Whenever Tony writes about himself, in need of cleaning his "sheath," I

chuckle when I take the first, the second or both "h's" out.

 

Do not get tempted to spell Tony with an h as in "phony", or Wim with an h

as in "whim".

 

Wim, naughtily whimsical.

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Bob,

>>Hillary:

>> >snip< But believe me it is quite *real* and at times feels

>as though

>> a snake were zipping up the spine--which probably gave rise to the

>> description.

>

>Bob G:

>This whole dialogue (polylogue) about kundalini is beyond me because

>I never could "raise" it. Until you said that thing about the snake

>zipping up the spine. So THAT is the Kundalini energy. I have done

>that for years to wipe out fatigue and implant suggestions to myself

>as subliminal activators. I call it up when I need to concentrate

>too. Sometimes it takes over for a long time and shakes me when an

>important lost memory is about to surface.

>Am I right. I sigh usually after I feel it. Does that sound like

>the Kundalini energy?

 

That's it! That isn't ALL there is to Kundalini, but it's certainly Kundalini!

 

Many people have noticed what you mention and didn't realize what it was.

And many women have been experiencing that during orgasm for years. It's a

completely natural thing.

 

The word "kriya" means an action or a movement, and in the context of

Kundalini it means a spontaneous, involuntary action or movement. That zip

up the spine that takes away your fatigue is what one teacher named

upstream kriya. It's a natural cleansing tool; it clears away all kinds of

blocks to the flow of energy. That's probably why it brings lost memories

back to you. Bringing up more stuff for you to deal with and clear,

getting rid of more blocks. Since you can do it at will, you can use it

to get rid of other things besides fatigue. When you know of something

that is bothering you, that is a block in some way, such as some worry,

fear, habitual way of responding, etc., you can focus on that and do

upstream kriya... and out it goes!

 

When the Kundalini takes over and shakes you for a long time, that's also

kriyas. Many kinds of kriyas have been reported. Some people find their

bodies moving into strange positions or in odd repetitive movements. Some

have discovered they've been doing Hatha Yoga asanas, even though they'd

never studied it and didn't know what they were. Some find the hands

moving in patterns or feel the urge to dance or sing or shout.

 

This is nothing to worry about. These movements all have some purpose,

some special effect - perhaps opening a chakra, or moving energy through

some difficult channel, or clearing something. It isn't necessary to know

what the purpose is. You can trust the Kundalini. It is an autonomous

energy that has a mind of its own. And it is working for your own

development and growth. In fact, it is Mother Shakti herself.

 

If you'd like to read more about it, there's a good book by a medical

doctor, Lee Sanella, called _Kundalini Experience_. He gives many case

histories and personal reports.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Hi Dharma:

Thanks for the excellent response. I can't imagine life with out this

tool. It would be a barren and ignorant existence (comparatively).

We all have much to be thankful for.

Love

Bob G.

]

, Dharma <deva@L...> wrote:

> Hi Bob,

>

> >>Hillary:

> >> >snip< But believe me it is quite *real* and at times feels

> >as though

> >> a snake were zipping up the spine--which probably gave rise to

the

> >> description.

> >

> >Bob G:

> >This whole dialogue (polylogue) about kundalini is beyond me

because

> >I never could "raise" it. Until you said that thing about the

snake

> >zipping up the spine. So THAT is the Kundalini energy. I have done

> >that for years to wipe out fatigue and implant suggestions to

myself

> >as subliminal activators. I call it up when I need to concentrate

> >too. Sometimes it takes over for a long time and shakes me when an

> >important lost memory is about to surface.

> >Am I right. I sigh usually after I feel it. Does that sound like

> >the Kundalini energy?

>

> That's it! That isn't ALL there is to Kundalini, but it's

certainly Kundalini!

>

> Many people have noticed what you mention and didn't realize what

it was.

> And many women have been experiencing that during orgasm for

years. It's a

> completely natural thing.

>

> The word "kriya" means an action or a movement, and in the context

of

> Kundalini it means a spontaneous, involuntary action or movement.

That zip

> up the spine that takes away your fatigue is what one teacher named

> upstream kriya. It's a natural cleansing tool; it clears away all

kinds of

> blocks to the flow of energy. That's probably why it brings lost

memories

> back to you. Bringing up more stuff for you to deal with and clear,

> getting rid of more blocks. Since you can do it at will, you can

use it

> to get rid of other things besides fatigue. When you know of

something

> that is bothering you, that is a block in some way, such as some

worry,

> fear, habitual way of responding, etc., you can focus on that and do

> upstream kriya... and out it goes!

>

> When the Kundalini takes over and shakes you for a long time,

that's also

> kriyas. Many kinds of kriyas have been reported. Some people find

their

> bodies moving into strange positions or in odd repetitive

movements. Some

> have discovered they've been doing Hatha Yoga asanas, even though

they'd

> never studied it and didn't know what they were. Some find the

hands

> moving in patterns or feel the urge to dance or sing or shout.

>

> This is nothing to worry about. These movements all have some

purpose,

> some special effect - perhaps opening a chakra, or moving energy

through

> some difficult channel, or clearing something. It isn't necessary

to know

> what the purpose is. You can trust the Kundalini. It is an

autonomous

> energy that has a mind of its own. And it is working for your own

> development and growth. In fact, it is Mother Shakti herself.

>

> If you'd like to read more about it, there's a good book by a

medical

> doctor, Lee Sanella, called _Kundalini Experience_. He gives many

case

> histories and personal reports.

>

> Love,

> Dharma

[Guest guest]

Bob & Friends,

 

Bob, I know Dharma shares what I'm going to say, but as she didn't

emphasize it in her post, I'd like to add that Kundalini also creates

kriyas of a more psychological or emotional character, often forcing

to the surface some key thought, or more often, a previously

involuntary reaction pattern so that we can see it. As we're

frequently slow to fully grasp something of an obsessional or

nuerotic character, we frequently "fall in" and repeat our usual

obsessional or neurotic pattern; so it tends to come up again, and

present us with the same problem, but perhaps in a slightly different

context until we are finally able to fully "grok" it, and begin to

remove it from our emotional or psychological repertoire.

 

yours in the bonds,

eric

 

 

 

, Dharma <deva@L...> wrote:

> Hi Bob,

>

> >>Hillary:

> >> >snip< But believe me it is quite *real* and at times feels

> >as though

> >> a snake were zipping up the spine--which probably gave rise to

the

> >> description.

> >

> >Bob G:

> >This whole dialogue (polylogue) about kundalini is beyond me

because

> >I never could "raise" it. Until you said that thing about the

snake

> >zipping up the spine. So THAT is the Kundalini energy. I have done

> >that for years to wipe out fatigue and implant suggestions to

myself

> >as subliminal activators. I call it up when I need to concentrate

> >too. Sometimes it takes over for a long time and shakes me when an

> >important lost memory is about to surface.

> >Am I right. I sigh usually after I feel it. Does that sound like

> >the Kundalini energy?

>

> That's it! That isn't ALL there is to Kundalini, but it's

certainly Kundalini!

>

> Many people have noticed what you mention and didn't realize what

it was.

> And many women have been experiencing that during orgasm for

years. It's a

> completely natural thing.

>

> The word "kriya" means an action or a movement, and in the context

of

> Kundalini it means a spontaneous, involuntary action or movement.

That zip

> up the spine that takes away your fatigue is what one teacher named

> upstream kriya. It's a natural cleansing tool; it clears away all

kinds of

> blocks to the flow of energy. That's probably why it brings lost

memories

> back to you. Bringing up more stuff for you to deal with and clear,

> getting rid of more blocks. Since you can do it at will, you can

use it

> to get rid of other things besides fatigue. When you know of

something

> that is bothering you, that is a block in some way, such as some

worry,

> fear, habitual way of responding, etc., you can focus on that and do

> upstream kriya... and out it goes!

>

> When the Kundalini takes over and shakes you for a long time,

that's also

> kriyas. Many kinds of kriyas have been reported. Some people find

their

> bodies moving into strange positions or in odd repetitive

movements. Some

> have discovered they've been doing Hatha Yoga asanas, even though

they'd

> never studied it and didn't know what they were. Some find the

hands

> moving in patterns or feel the urge to dance or sing or shout.

>

> This is nothing to worry about. These movements all have some

purpose,

> some special effect - perhaps opening a chakra, or moving energy

through

> some difficult channel, or clearing something. It isn't necessary

to know

> what the purpose is. You can trust the Kundalini. It is an

autonomous

> energy that has a mind of its own. And it is working for your own

> development and growth. In fact, it is Mother Shakti herself.

>

> If you'd like to read more about it, there's a good book by a

medical

> doctor, Lee Sanella, called _Kundalini Experience_. He gives many

case

> histories and personal reports.

>

> Love,

> Dharma

[Guest guest]

126

Hi Eric,

>Bob, I know Dharma shares what I'm going to say, but as she didn't

>emphasize it in her post, I'd like to add that Kundalini also creates

>kriyas of a more psychological or emotional character, often forcing

>to the surface some key thought, or more often, a previously

>involuntary reaction pattern so that we can see it. As we're

>frequently slow to fully grasp something of an obsessional or

>nuerotic character, we frequently "fall in" and repeat our usual

>obsessional or neurotic pattern; so it tends to come up again, and

>present us with the same problem, but perhaps in a slightly different

>context until we are finally able to fully "grok" it, and begin to

>remove it from our emotional or psychological repertoire.

 

I don't disagree with what you say, but I've never seen the word "kriya"

used for a psychological or emotional happening. Or for an intellectual

understanding or grokking. As far as I know, the word denotes physical

movements and actions. Sannella speaks of "spontaneous bodily movements

(known as kriya in Sanskrit)."

 

I'm not a Sanskrit scholar, but I have not seen anyone else use the word in

the way you do.

 

And having said that, I looked into Muktananda's _Play of Consciousness_

and found a glossary definition of "kriyas" as:

>gross (physical) or subtle (mental, emotional) purificatory movements

>initiated by the awakened Kundalini. Kriyas purify the body and nervous

>system so as to allow a seeker to sustain the energy of higher states of

>consciousness.

 

But in the book I do not find anything like this - quite the opposite, in

fact. Makes me wonder if Muktananda wrote all these definitions himself.

 

In the book he talks about the many kriyas he experienced himself - the

mudras, the slithering and hissing like a snake, the roaring like a tiger,

etc. In fact, he has an entire chapter on it: "Spontaneous Yogic

Movements," in which he says, "I now understood that it is the gross body,

the description of which we may read in Vedanta, which is seen in

meditation as that red aura. All kriyas happen in this body." I do think

that what he means by the "gross body" is ALL of the physical, including

what we call the etheric, which is the higher sub-levels of the physical.

But it would not include emotional and mental/intellectual levels.

 

It may seem a quibble about words, but I think most people with Kundalini

wouldn't even understand what was meant by a "kriya" that had nothing to do

with the physical body. Kriyas do have _effects_ in/on the emotional and

intellectual/mental bodies, of course - maybe that's what Muktananda had in

mind in that definition.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

, EBlackstead@c... wrote:

> Bob & Friends,

>

> Bob, I know Dharma shares what I'm going to say, but as she didn't

> emphasize it in her post, I'd like to add that Kundalini also

creates

> kriyas of a more psychological or emotional character, often

forcing

> to the surface some key thought, or more often, a previously

> involuntary reaction pattern so that we can see it. As we're

> frequently slow to fully grasp something of an obsessional or

> nuerotic character, we frequently "fall in" and repeat our usual

> obsessional or neurotic pattern; so it tends to come up again, and

> present us with the same problem, but perhaps in a slightly

different

> context until we are finally able to fully "grok" it, and begin to

> remove it from our emotional or psychological repertoire.

>

> yours in the bonds,

> eric

 

Dear Eric:

I'm not for sure I fully grok you. Involution means to me the

returning to the ego as the door by which we entered into illusion

and must ultimately exit. It seems you may mean a 'hidden'or anti-

evolutionary reactionary pattern. (What I call a subliminal

activator, or samskara.)

On the universal scale involution to me also means that period which

precedes creation when mind creates matter in a way which will evolve

back into mind.

At any rate the forcing up of blocks, obsessions, and Hydra-like

neurotic behavior is my least favorite activity (kriya?).

Nonetheless I beg for it. The stuff that comes up is not pretty but

I remind 'myself' that I'm the one knowing it's happening. The pain

others endure because of me as well as my need to give them pleasure

is just a dance.

A few years ago I was horrified when I was forced, evidently by this

newly named (to me) energy we're discussing, to see how I had

objectified women all my life, denying their feelings in order to

have sex. I would not have been so callous if I could have seen

myself clearly. I don't see how anyone could claim to want to be

liberated and not be willing to see the truth about their activities

and beliefs. Men need to be honest with women all the time, even and

especially men who are "nice" to women.

"To remove it from my repertoire" I started a drawing and I'm still

working on it five years later. It is a map of my own mind to remind

me what is important.

Love and best wishes,

Bob G.

[Guest guest]

, Dharma <deva@L...> wrote:

> 126

> Hi Eric,

>

> >kriyas of a more psychological or emotional character, often

forcing

>

> I don't disagree with what you say, but I've never seen the

word "kriya"

> used for a psychological or emotional happening. Or for an

intellectual

> understanding or grokking. As far as I know, the word denotes

physical

> movements and actions

 

Hi Dharma, Eric,

 

Actually we had a short discussion on "emotional Kriyas" on the

Kundalini-Gateway list awhile back. I think it is a very useful term

for something many people experience.

 

Love, Hillary

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob,

>Dear Eric:

>I'm not for sure I fully grok you. Involution means to me the

>returning to the ego as the door by which we entered into illusion

>and must ultimately exit. It seems you may mean a 'hidden'or anti-

>evolutionary reactionary pattern. (What I call a subliminal

>activator, or samskara.)

 

I think you've misread a word in Eric's note. He spoke of "a previously

involuntary reaction pattern." Involuntary, not involutionary.

>snip<

>A few years ago I was horrified when I was forced, evidently by this

>newly named (to me) energy we're discussing, to see how I had

>objectified women all my life, denying their feelings in order to

>have sex. I would not have been so callous if I could have seen

>myself clearly. I don't see how anyone could claim to want to be

>liberated and not be willing to see the truth about their activities

>and beliefs. Men need to be honest with women all the time, even and

>especially men who are "nice" to women.

>"To remove it from my repertoire" I started a drawing and I'm still

>working on it five years later. It is a map of my own mind to remind

>me what is important.

 

Good work, Bob! My hat's off to you.

 

Love,

Dharma