VND-ism and Advaita

August 27, 2001

Hi Tony and ...

I'm not sure who your correspondent was in this thread. Eric? Ed? - but

someone said that advaita vedanta as taught by the Chinmaya Mission and

maybe Arsha Vidya Gurukulam is VND-ist.

This is definitely not the case, as "VND-ism" has come to be understood.

Although both of these schools *teach* using verbal methods, they

nevertheless always encourage the student to

-meditate

-study texts

-adopt a form of Ishvara for bhakti yoga

-perform karma yoga actions

-do good actions, avoid unwholesome actions

In fact, the classes in Chinmaya Mission open up with an invocation to the

guru, and they *chant* the texts they teach, they don't just say them.

These schools are very well aware of what we call VND-ism and the tendency

of "spiritual bypassing," which they identify with just talking the talk.

VND-ism comes from elsewhere, not these schools. There are lots of

neo-advaita satsang teachers that tell you to abide in the Beingness,

embrace the Beloved and drop all these other practices, for they serve only

to strengthen the sense of separation. This is the teaching, and I've seen

many VND-type dynamics come from these teachings. Remember the Lucknow

Disease - that is a symptom of VND-ism...

Love,

--Greg

At 03:53 PM 8/27/01 -0000, Tony O'Clery wrote:

>, EBlackstead@c... wrote:

>> Tony & Friends,

>>

>> Tony, your family and any others who love you must find you to be

>almost

>> excrutiatingly exacerbating.

>

>Namaste Eric,

>

>No correction just a re statement of what my term Vndism meant. People

>who talk and talk but do no sadhana at all, people not in a spiritual

>environment perhaps only an intellectual one.

>

>Punishment is not something that bothers me, I am impervious to

>punishment and insults........ONS......Tony. Who am I?

>

>/join

>

>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is

Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality

of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

a.

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

August 28, 2001

, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> VND-ism comes from elsewhere, not these schools. There are lots of

> neo-advaita satsang teachers that tell you to abide in the

> Beingness, embrace the Beloved and drop all these other practices,

> for they serve only to strengthen the sense of separation.

Can you show some evidence that they don't?

> This is the teaching, and I've seen many VND-type dynamics come

> from these teachings.

There has to be a certain readiness for a very simple,

effortless 'non-practice' like "abiding in the Beingness"

or "unconditional surrender." Otherwise, you may be right... without

the readiness, such teachings aren't usually 'understood' and can

serve as an excuse for what has been called "VND-ism."

Namaste,

Omkara

August 28, 2001

Hi Omkara,

You ask if I can show some evidence that practices don't increase

separation.

I'm not sure what is acceptable as evidence, but here are some points.

The advaita satsang teaching often heard is that bhakti yoga, chanting,

devotion, meditation, karma yoga, reading texts, contemplating the nature

of things, etc., cannot be practiced without strengthening the sense of

separation. This is an extreme, empirically unsupported claim, a VND-ist

claim in fact. And the burden of proof would be on the claimant. It means

that the sense of separation (a psycho-physiological appearance) is never

lessened by these practices, only maintained or increased. It is so

extreme that even one counterexample topples it.

Counterexamples: I used to be Christian, a supremely bhakti form. At the

beginning of that, I was drawn to the music because of a subtle, dull

feeling of psychological loneliness. I felt separated from life, from

fullness, from other people. I was in grad school! It's a solitary,

lonely life. They say "a grad student is better than a paper clip, but not

as good as a staple." My secretary invited me repeatedly to gospel music

events in her church. I was a lifelong atheist, so this went against my

grain. But one evening I went. And I felt a superb sweetness, even from

one song. A happiness and fullness I'd only rarely felt in life. Of

course that went away after a few hours... I did want to go again. And

then, after going repeatedly, one Sunday evening in February 1986,

something hit me. After a song called "For God So Loved the World," I felt

a hot rushing wind up and down my spine, out the top of my head, all around

the room. Hot, sweet, prickly sensation, lasting about an hour. A

fullness of heart. I finally was able to go home and go to bed. The next

morning, my whole life was different. Gone forever was the feeling of

separation from other people, from love and life. That feeling has never

returned. Hence less separation. Of course the result of this wasn't

total non-dual immersion, end of all duality, etc. But it was certainly

enough to be a counterexample to the satsang claim. I have known many

other people for whom an irreversible *decrease* in the sense of separation

has been experienced through these practices. The paths themselves say

that their activities are combined with understanding. The poetry of Rumi

illustrates it.

They often make the same claim about therapy - that therapy *always*

increases the ego, etc. These "always" statements are always suspect :-)

On the other hand, bhakti, karma, raja, jnana yoga, reading texts, etc.,

*can* increase separation, especially when they're performed with a

grasping or fearful motive. One friend of mine practiced chanting the

"Guru Gita" for 5 years or so, because she was told that this would lead to

enlightenment, and enlightenment would allow her goals to be accomplished,

including a boyfriend and a record contract (she's a great jazz singer).

This made her feel more and more grasping, and she was always checking "How

am I doing, am I getting closer or not?" The way she was practicing, in a

very self-monitoring way, was leading to stronger feelings of separation.

Another friend followed Guru Mayi's teachings because of a lifelong fear of

poverty, of bodily decay, of disappearing. He was practicing to chase

farther and farther away from these fears. It just sharpened his sense of

separation, but actually made it easier to grasp when he later took up

contemplation.

You also mention below the needed readiness before one can do the

"non-practice" of abiding in the Beloved, being in the Beingness, etc.

These other paths (bhakti, etc.) are great readiness-makers for this. This

also is the teaching in the more traditional advaita schools. Also, the

abiding and the being, as mentioned in the satsangs, most definitely *are*

practices. They're not always stated or acknowledged as such, but they

actually are: if it's understood as something you can go into and come out

of, and if it's something you *try* to stay into, with clarity or peace or

liberation as the phenomenal goal, (like the claims made about the abiding

state), then it's a practice....

Love,

--Greg

At 09:08 PM 8/28/01 -0000, Omkara wrote:

>, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

>

>> VND-ism comes from elsewhere, not these schools. There are lots of

>> neo-advaita satsang teachers that tell you to abide in the

>> Beingness, embrace the Beloved and drop all these other practices,

>> for they serve only to strengthen the sense of separation.

>

>Can you show some evidence that they don't?

>

>> This is the teaching, and I've seen many VND-type dynamics come

>> from these teachings.

>

>There has to be a certain readiness for a very simple,

>effortless 'non-practice' like "abiding in the Beingness"

>or "unconditional surrender." Otherwise, you may be right... without

>the readiness, such teachings aren't usually 'understood' and can

>serve as an excuse for what has been called "VND-ism."

>

>Namaste,

>

>Omkara