Guest guest Posted August 28, 2001 Report Share Posted August 28, 2001 Kheyala & Friends, In an answer to one of my posts, Kheyala quoted me as saying: "At a time later in my life, during the almost complete self distruction of my alcohol days, I was sadly to note that 'we seem to be built to survive the beatings that we inflict on ourselves.' Looking back, I think that that was probably the first 'original' observation I was to make about spiritual life." Then he said: "Sweet Eric, This is not original and it is simply not true. Look at the billions of deaths throughout time of those who did not survive their own beatings. Why not discard this belief? It has holes all over it, and anyway it makes you suffer!" Kheyala, I thank you for your kind regard and your equally kind intentions, but I would argue that those who didn't survive their own beatings weren't locked in to a spiritual path of development, and I very much was. We don't have the time now for me to roll out a complicated theory of initiation, but in outline, at some time we meet our true Guru and take his initiation. From that time forward, life after life, our past karma unfolds before us and we must live out, and hopefully learn from, the resulting situations. Kheyala quoting me again: "If leaving this earthly vale isn't in the karmic hand, no amount of our manipulation will make it so. Here we've been put, and here we'll stay until some arcane karmic recall is issued." Well alright, a little florid for my taste, but apparently that was not the taste that was dictating to me at the time of writing it. Kheyala followed up: "This, too, is just an idea that causes you to suffer. Isn't it possible to look at it from the reverse?" Kheyala, I'm not suffering now, and nothing causes me greater satisfaction ( not speaking of the larger issue of long term Happiness) than trying to see things as they are, or at least as they appear to be, which is all, really, that we can guarantee ourselves that we are seeing in any case. Even visions, dazzling as they might be, we must ultimately take on faith. Kheyala went on to suggest: "Isn't it possible to look at it from the reverse? Like this, perhaps? Who we are is the all-pervading Consciousness, Perfectly Perfect. Sometimes we imagine ourselves to be people who are subject to karma. Sometimes we imagine ourselves to be people who try to manipulate ourselves out of this peopleness. This doesn't work because of the simple fact that we never actually are people, and there never actually is a "karmic hand." It only appears so sometimes. Just like it really does appear that the sun comes up and goes down." Kheyala, you may be surprised to hear that I do think of myself as "all pervading consciousness" (locked into the 3 malas of Karma. Mayiya, etc.) If I'm locked in, and I certainly am, How did I get this way? Because I chose it? That's just something from the Seth material, which isn't even Vedanta. I can't speak for Seth or Jane Roberts who channeled him, but I've paid the dues of a long search through the meditative states of 25 or so years, and if I chose my life plan this time around, then this "I" who did the choosing bears no resemblance and even less of a connection with me, the "I" that is living it out. Your suggestion is not a bad idea for those who can practice the Vedantic method and who believe in it, because our karma ("imagined" if you can sustain that suggestion)or not, is still our karma and we're going to be forced(by our imagination, if you like to think so) to live it out; so why not,(as you've suggested)take a positive outlook on things. Please be reassured: no "belief" makes me suffer. At best, I have suffered, examined it and, sometimes, not always or even most of the time, but sometimes, codified my ruminations into a belief. I had to live more than half my life before I could find a system of beliefs that even half way conformed to the way life seemed to "mean" as I was given to live it, and that was Kashmir Saivism. KS has become so popular among modern spiritual seekers precisely because it doesn't define this world as illusion, or any other world, for that matter, that people are able to consistently experience. Kashmir Saivism is Vedanta with some right handed tantric english, and while it recognises that this world is not the final reality, it clearly represents that it is the projection of a force: Kali, Yogamaya, the Goddess or the Shakti which is simply the nondual Siva in his projection as the active force of creation, or God or Brahman. Because I have experienced states that sustained for a very long time, years even, doesn't change the unalterable basic fact that I am a "person"; further, I am unable to consistently believe that this is so merely because I'm imagining it. To think "We never are people" is to me a form of philisophic escapism, and while I can't prove it, it is clear to me that karma is the single most important fact of any one person's life. When asked about the nature of karma by one of his devotees in one of the Hinayana scriptures, Buddha answered (in paraphrase), "It is inexplicable. Just know that karma exists, and do the right thing." So, Kheyala, if we can't completely agree that the "karmic hand" exists, we can mutually accept that, in any case, we must strive to do the right thing, and in that light, I'm glad that you were moved to offer me your thoughts. yours in the bonds, eric , "Kheyala" <kheyala@n...> wrote: > Dear Eric, > I just accidentally demolished the letter you wrote me yesterday. I couldn't help it. Please see it as an act of Love, because that is what it is. If you are in a mood to take things personally, please do not read the following words. If your heart is open, do read on, and recognize the words from inside yourself....because it was you who provoked me to write this. > > Sincerely, > Kheyala > > > > Eric wrote: > "At a time later in my life,during the almost complete self distruction of my alcohol days, I was sadly to note that 'we seem to be built to survive the beatings that we inflict on ourselves.' Looking back, I think that was probably the first 'original' observation I > was to make about spiritual life." > > Sweet Eric, > This is not original and it is simply not true. Look at the billions of deaths throughout time of those who did not survive their own beatings. Why not discard this belief? It has holes all over it, and anyway it makes you suffer! > > > Here is another one. You wrote: > > "If leaving this earthly vale isn't in the karmic hand, no amount of our manipulation will make it so. Here we've been > put, and here we'll stay until some arcane karmic recall is issued." > > > This, too, is just an idea that causes you to suffer. > Isn't it possible to look at it from the reverse? Like this, perhaps? > Who we are is the all-pervading Consciousness, Perfectly Perfect. Sometimes we imagine ourselves to be people who are subject to karma. Sometimes we imagine ourselves to be people who try to manipulate ourselves out of this peopleness. This doesn't work because of the simple fact that we never actually are people, and there never actually is a "karmic hand." It only appears so sometimes. Just like it really does appear that the sun comes up and goes down. > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 Hi Eric, Your emails are carrying some powerful Shaktipat tonight! Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 Hello Eric et al, "Mind versus Matter is unreal, like all dualism, but Mind-Matter as a suchness is real. To realize the latter is at least as important as it is to realize the former. Usually, however, the former alone is pointed out - and the unfortunate pilgrim is left with the impression that both are unreal, whereas, in fact, each is unreal but both are real. Each half of every pair of opposites is unreal. Both halves of every pair of opposites, united in their quiddity, are Reality-Unreality, or Tao. The reunion of every pair of opposites renders them non-dual. That is approximately as far as words can carry one towards understanding the nature of - TAO. " Wei Wu Wei ~~~~~~~~~~~ Here is the way I say, express, the same reconciliation. OneDuality - opposites are One Love, James -- Being Yoga http://www.beingyoga.com live the change you wish to see ~~~~~~~~~ Kheyala & Friends, In an answer to one of my posts, Kheyala quoted me as saying: "At a time later in my life, during the almost complete self distruction of my alcohol days, I was sadly to note that 'we seem to be built to survive the beatings that we inflict on ourselves.' Looking back, I think that that was probably the first 'original' observation I was to make about spiritual life." Then he said: "Sweet Eric, This is not original and it is simply not true. Look at the billions of deaths throughout time of those who did not survive their own beatings. Why not discard this belief? It has holes all over it, and anyway it makes you suffer!" Kheyala, I thank you for your kind regard and your equally kind intentions, but I would argue that those who didn't survive their own beatings weren't locked in to a spiritual path of development, and I very much was. We don't have the time now for me to roll out a complicated theory of initiation, but in outline, at some time we meet our true Guru and take his initiation. From that time forward, life after life, our past karma unfolds before us and we must live out, and hopefully learn from, the resulting situations. Kheyala quoting me again: "If leaving this earthly vale isn't in the karmic hand, no amount of our manipulation will make it so. Here we've been put, and here we'll stay until some arcane karmic recall is issued." Well alright, a little florid for my taste, but apparently that was not the taste that was dictating to me at the time of writing it. Kheyala followed up: "This, too, is just an idea that causes you to suffer. Isn't it possible to look at it from the reverse?" Kheyala, I'm not suffering now, and nothing causes me greater satisfaction ( not speaking of the larger issue of long term Happiness) than trying to see things as they are, or at least as they appear to be, which is all, really, that we can guarantee ourselves that we are seeing in any case. Even visions, dazzling as they might be, we must ultimately take on faith. Kheyala went on to suggest: "Isn't it possible to look at it from the reverse? Like this, perhaps? Who we are is the all-pervading Consciousness, Perfectly Perfect. Sometimes we imagine ourselves to be people who are subject to karma. Sometimes we imagine ourselves to be people who try to manipulate ourselves out of this peopleness. This doesn't work because of the simple fact that we never actually are people, and there never actually is a "karmic hand." It only appears so sometimes. Just like it really does appear that the sun comes up and goes down." Kheyala, you may be surprised to hear that I do think of myself as "all pervading consciousness" (locked into the 3 malas of Karma. Mayiya, etc.) If I'm locked in, and I certainly am, How did I get this way? Because I chose it? That's just something from the Seth material, which isn't even Vedanta. I can't speak for Seth or Jane Roberts who channeled him, but I've paid the dues of a long search through the meditative states of 25 or so years, and if I chose my life plan this time around, then this "I" who did the choosing bears no resemblance and even less of a connection with me, the "I" that is living it out. Your suggestion is not a bad idea for those who can practice the Vedantic method and who believe in it, because our karma ("imagined" if you can sustain that suggestion)or not, is still our karma and we're going to be forced(by our imagination, if you like to think so) to live it out; so why not,(as you've suggested)take a positive outlook on things. Please be reassured: no "belief" makes me suffer. At best, I have suffered, examined it and, sometimes, not always or even most of the time, but sometimes, codified my ruminations into a belief. I had to live more than half my life before I could find a system of beliefs that even half way conformed to the way life seemed to "mean" as I was given to live it, and that was Kashmir Saivism. KS has become so popular among modern spiritual seekers precisely because it doesn't define this world as illusion, or any other world, for that matter, that people are able to consistently experience. Kashmir Saivism is Vedanta with some right handed tantric english, and while it recognises that this world is not the final reality, it clearly represents that it is the projection of a force: Kali, Yogamaya, the Goddess or the Shakti which is simply the nondual Siva in his projection as the active force of creation, or God or Brahman. Because I have experienced states that sustained for a very long time, years even, doesn't change the unalterable basic fact that I am a "person"; further, I am unable to consistently believe that this is so merely because I'm imagining it. To think "We never are people" is to me a form of philisophic escapism, and while I can't prove it, it is clear to me that karma is the single most important fact of any one person's life. When asked about the nature of karma by one of his devotees in one of the Hinayana scriptures, Buddha answered (in paraphrase), "It is inexplicable. Just know that karma exists, and do the right thing." So, Kheyala, if we can't completely agree that the "karmic hand" exists, we can mutually accept that, in any case, we must strive to do the right thing, and in that light, I'm glad that you were moved to offer me your thoughts. yours in the bonds, eric Attachment: (image/jpeg) C:\temp\nsmailUE.jpeg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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