Being and Knowing

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone:

 

13. Absorption is of two sorts;

Submergence and destruction.

Mind submerged rises again;

Dead, it revives no more.

 

14. Breath controlled and thought restrained,

The mind turned one-way inward

Fades and dies.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi

(Upadesa Saram)

 

The submergence of the mind is a very tangible event for me. It

certainly makes Ramana's pointers have more meaning. Fading? This

seems to say the absence of awareness becomes less over time with

absorption (submergence). My heart becomes fuller.

 

26. To know the self is but to be the self,

For it is non-dual.

In such knowledge

One abides as that.

 

It seems to me Ramana refers to Knowledge and Absorption as the same

state. This would be dhyana. As dhyana lengthens the mind fades

and dies. About this issue of self, being and knowing are the same.

What was previously considered observing myself becomes being myself.

I have always known this.

With Love

Bob G.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for that beautiful sharing Bob! In response to what you wrote, I

am reposting an earlier conversation on Samadhi and Sri Ramana's comments on

it.

****************************************************************************

*************************

 

Thank you Swaminaryanji for your comments and quotes. Like many others here,

I don't know Sanskrit and rely on good translations only. I recall that in

grade school in Amritsar I had a choice between Art and Sanksrit and I chose

Art. Actually for some reason, all the boys chose art and all the girls

chose Sanskrit. As it stands now, I am neither an artist nor a scholar but

can certainly appreciate those talents in others. So thank you for sharing.

 

Sunderji had given some excellent quotes from Ramana Maharshi on Samadhi. To

add to this, if I recall correctly, Paul Brunton had asked Sri Ramana when

Sahaj Samadhi should be practiced. The Sage of Arunachala stated that Sahaj

Samadhi should be practiced from the very beginning! There is deep meaning

in this statement and it requires serious reflection. Sri Ramana further

added that what is natural for a Siddha is the practice for the aspirant. I

will pass this on to along with Sunderji's quotes followed by

Swaminaryanji's Sanskrit quotes from the scriptures.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

Sunderji's quotes of Sri Ramana on Samadhi

 

Namaste,

 

It would be hard to excel the answers that Ramana Maharshi

gave on the subject of samadhi: [Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi,5th

ed., 1972; Ramanashram,Tiruvannamalai]

 

p.84: "When the senses are merged in darkness it is deep sleep;

when merged in light it is samadhi.

Just as a passenger when asleep in a carriage is unaware of the

motion, the halting or the unharnessing of the horses, so also a

jnani in sahaja samadhi is unaware of the happenings, waking,dream

and deep sleep. Here sleep corresponds to the unharnessing of the

horse. And samadhi corresponds to the halting of the horse, because

the senses are ready to act as the horses are ready to move after

halting.

 

In samadhi the head does not bend down because the senses are ther

though inactive; whereas the head bends down in sleep because the

senses are merged in drkness.

In kevala samadhi, the activities [vital and mental], waking, dream

and sleep, are only merged, ready to emerge after regaining the state

other than samadhi.

 

In sahaja samadhi the activities, vital and mental, and the three

states are destroyed, never to re-appear. However others notice the

jnani active, e.g. eating, talking, moving, etc. He is not himself

aware of these activities, whereas others are aware of his

activities. They pertain to his body and not to his Real Self,

swarupa. For himself, he is like the sleeping passenger --or like a

child interrupted from sound sleep and fed, being unaware of it. The

child says the next day that he did not take milk at all and that he

went to sleep without it. Even when reminded he cannot be convinced.

So also is sahaja samadhi.

 

sushumna pare leena--here sushumna refers to tapo marga, whereas the

para nadi refers to jnana marga."

 

p. 105: "Samadhi transcends mind and speech, and cannot be described.

For example, the state of deep slumber cannot be described; samadhi

state can still less be explained.....Consciousness and

unconsciousness are only modes of the mind. Samadhi transcends the

mind."

 

p. 121: " Samadhi is one's natural state. It is the under-current in

all the three states. This--that is 'I'--is not in those states, but

these states are in it. If we get samadhi in our waking state that

will persist in deep sleep also.

 

p. 123: " Jnana, once revealed, takes time to steady itself. The Self

is certainly within the direct experience of everyone, but not as one

imagines it to be. It is only as it is. This Experience is samadhi.

 

p. 135: " When the one who asks the nature of samadhi and the method

of getting into it vanishes, samadhi will result.

 

p. 357: " Holding on to Reality is samadhi.

Holding on to Reality with effort is savikalpa samadhi.

Merging in Reality and remaining unaware of the world is

nirvikalpa samadhi.

Merging in ignorance and remaining unaware of the world is

sleep. [Head bends, but not in samadhi].

Remaining in the primal, pure natural state without effort

is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi.

Samadhi means passing beyond dehatma buddhi [i-am-the-body

idea] and non-identification of the body with the Self is a foregone

conclusion.

 

p. 358: " The yogis call it Kundalini Shakti. It is the same as

vritti of the form of God {Bhagavatakara vritti] of the bhaktas and

vritti of the form of Brahman [brahmakara vritti] of the jnanis. It

must be preliminary to Realization . The sensation produced may be

said to be hot.

The kundalini of jnana marga is said to be the Heart, which

is also described in various ways as a network of nadis, of the shape

of a serpent , of a lotus-bud, etc....

The Heart is the origin of the 'I'-thought.

 

p. 381: " External samadhi is holding on to the Reality while

witnessing the world, without reacting to it from within. There is

stillnes of a waveless ocean. The internal samadhi involves loss of

body-consciousness.

What is body-consciousness? Analyse it. There must be a body and

consciousness limited to it which together make up body-

consciousness. These must lie in another Consciousnesswhich is

absolute and unaffected. Hold it. That is samadhi. It exists when

there is no body-consciousness because it transcends the latter, it

also exists when there is the body-consciousness.. So it is always

there. What does it matter whether body-consciousness is is lost or

retained? When lost it is internal samdhi; when retained it is

external samadhi. That is all. A person must remain in any one of the

six samadhis so that sahaja samadhi may be easy for him.

 

p. 552: " What is samadhi? Samadhi is one's essential nature. How

then can it come and go?

 

p. 553: " The effortless samadhi is the true one and the perfect

state. It is permanent....

When the real, effortless, permanent, happy natureis realised it will

be found to be not inconsistent with the ordinary activities of life."

 

On page 359, there is a tabular representation, which I shall try to

copy in a future post.

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

Swaminarayan T [tvswaminarayan]

Wednesday, November 29, 2000 6:21 PM

advaitin

RE: Re: The turning point

 

Dear Harshaji,

 

Most certainly,you have explained it nicely and we cannot agree with you

more.Has not Gaudapada said:

 

" Manasohyamaneebhave dwaitam naivopalabhyate " ? And again:

 

" Akalpakam ajam gyaanam gyeyaabhinnam prachakshate,Brahmagyeyam ajam nityam

ajenaajam vibhudyate."

 

Also:

 

" Yadaa na leeyate chittam nacha vikshipyate punaha, aninganam anaabhaasam

nishpannam BRAHMA tat tadaa "

 

Hari Om !

 

Swaminarayan

 

 

Harsha <harsha-hkl wrote:

In his Drg-Drsya Viveka Bharati Tirtha explains thus:

 

But the Nirvikalpa samadhi is that in which the mind becomes steady like the

(Unflickearing flame of a ) light kept in a place free from wind and in

which the student becomes indifferent to both objects and sounds on account

of his complete absorption in the bliss of the realization of the Self.

__________________________

_____________________

Generally I agree with the spirit of this. Steadiness of the mind can

precede Self-Realization and may be considered a prerequisite. That is why

there is an emphasis on making the mind subtle and pure through the practice

of meditation and samadhi. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, however, the question of

mind being steady or indifferent to objects and sounds cannot arise at all

as the mind itself along with its powers of cognition and perception and

imagination disappears upon entering the Heart.

Harsha

 

 

 

bgbbyg [bgbbyg]

Thursday, August 30, 2001 10:17 AM

Being and Knowing

 

 

Hi Everyone:

 

13. Absorption is of two sorts;

Submergence and destruction.

Mind submerged rises again;

Dead, it revives no more.

 

14. Breath controlled and thought restrained,

The mind turned one-way inward

Fades and dies.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi

(Upadesa Saram)

 

The submergence of the mind is a very tangible event for me. It

certainly makes Ramana's pointers have more meaning. Fading? This

seems to say the absence of awareness becomes less over time with

absorption (submergence). My heart becomes fuller.

 

26. To know the self is but to be the self,

For it is non-dual.

In such knowledge

One abides as that.

 

It seems to me Ramana refers to Knowledge and Absorption as the same

state. This would be dhyana. As dhyana lengthens the mind fades

and dies. About this issue of self, being and knowing are the same.

What was previously considered observing myself becomes being myself.

I have always known this.

With Love

Bob G.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Harsha.

 

Your repost was very enlightening for me.

 

I was struck by this...

p. 358: " The yogis call it Kundalini Shakti. It is the same as

vritti of the form of God {Bhagavatakara vritti] of the bhaktas and

vritti of the form of Brahman [brahmakara vritti] of the jnanis. It

must be preliminary to Realization .

 

Go with God,

Bob G.

[Guest guest]

, bgbbyg@a... wrote:

> Thank you Harsha.

>

> Your repost was very enlightening for me.

>

> I was struck by this...

> p. 358: " The yogis call it Kundalini Shakti. It is the same as

> vritti of the form of God {Bhagavatakara vritti] of the bhaktas and

> vritti of the form of Brahman [brahmakara vritti] of the jnanis. It

> must be preliminary to Realization .

>

> Go with God,

> Bob G.

 

Namaste Bob,

 

I covered this recently. A vritti means a modification or vibration if

you will. Sakti/Saguna herself is a vritti. The ahamkara/Ego is a

vritti, that is connected to all the other modifications in the mind.

This vritti is purified in the awareness sheath or vijnanamayakosa. I

covered this also that the cakras are transducers like holes in a

curtain. That K shakt works on the inner sheaths not on the outer

cakras per se.......ONS.....Tony. Kunalini Sakti is the mind the

Mahat.

[Guest guest]

, "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> , bgbbyg@a... wrote:

> > Thank you Harsha.

> >

> > Your repost was very enlightening for me.

> >

> > I was struck by this...

> > p. 358: " The yogis call it Kundalini Shakti. It is the same as

> > vritti of the form of God {Bhagavatakara vritti] of the bhaktas

and

> > vritti of the form of Brahman [brahmakara vritti] of the jnanis.

It

> > must be preliminary to Realization .

> >

> > Go with God,

> > Bob G.

>

> Namaste Bob,

>

> I covered this recently. A vritti means a modification or vibration

if

> you will. Sakti/Saguna herself is a vritti. The ahamkara/Ego is a

> vritti, that is connected to all the other modifications in the

mind.

> This vritti is purified in the awareness sheath or vijnanamayakosa.

I

> covered this also that the cakras are transducers like holes in a

> curtain. That K shakt works on the inner sheaths not on the outer

> cakras per se.......ONS.....Tony. Kunalini Sakti is the mind the

> Mahat.

 

Dear I have followed your posts these last few days and I am glad for this

opportunity to chat.

Right now my heart is very full as I just read some memories of

Ramana by a Saddhu who knew him. I think we all reflect our mood

when we write, so with that prologue I hope I am understandable.

 

I wrote this a few days ago and did not send it....

(Whether something is described as real or not is a relative issue.

Therefore to describe your reality for another the same frame of

reference must be used by both. Confounding the relative and

absolute is untenable in debate. Objectivity does not exist (The

Self is always in the nominative case.), i.e., an objective world is

not out there some where to be described by the best debater.

Relatively speaking one can be more objective than another about

relative issues. A good debater will expose misconceptions in a way

that denies reasonable response thus 'winning'. Changing the

relative-absolute frame of reference to avoid admitting to the others

point of view is common in arguments, not debates. Speak to the

others frame of reference and you have insight and peace.....)

 

 

Vrittis to me are fluctuations in consciousness (from Feuerstein's

Patanjali, You said you liked). That Kundalini energy would be a

vritti did not come as a surprise. Isn't purifying the vrittis the

same as quieting them. The aham vritti (ego) submerges quite nicely

with Ramana's methodology (upadesa). It is like a trained dog. How

long it stays down is dictated by practice.

What is the reasoning behind the chakras being holes in a curtain?

The energy bottlenecks there? It is directed or flavored by the tone

of the "hole"? Are you trying to diminish peoples expectations and

beliefs that chakras are important? I get the feeling you may not

believe one's sadhana is promoted by too much reliance on standard

issue chakra pronouncements.

That Kundalini is a prerequisite to liberation means it is a part of

every sadhana. For myself I did not have a name for it until

recently. It was a part of everyday life though.

In the Aitreya Upanishad Shankara makes it clear that Brahman is to

be considered consciousness. Jnani Yoga gives Kundalini the highest

placement possible in the above quote by saying it is the form of

Consciousness.

I don't know what everybody got so hot about. (Don't tell me, I

don't want to know. ha, ha.)

I hope you will give me at least one good shot so I'll be like one of

the gang.

Love,

Bob G.

[Guest guest]

, bgbbyg@a... wrote:

> , "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> > , bgbbyg@a... wrote:

 

on standard

> issue chakra pronouncements.

> That Kundalini is a prerequisite to liberation means it is a part of

> every sadhana. For myself I did not have a name for it until

> recently. It was a part of everyday life though.

> In the Aitreya Upanishad Shankara makes it clear that Brahman is to

> be considered consciousness. Jnani Yoga gives Kundalini the highest

> placement possible in the above quote by saying it is the form of

> Consciousness.

> I don't know what everybody got so hot about. (Don't tell me, I

> don't want to know. ha, ha.)

> I hope you will give me at least one good shot so I'll be like one

of

> the gang.

> Love,

> Bob G.

 

Namaste Bob,

 

Yes I like Feurestein.

With regard to the cakras, it is exactly as you guessed. I consider

the attention too much on the cakras at the expense of sadhana and

purifying the inner sheaths, of which the cakras are transducers.

Kundalini or whatever name one gives it is really the Mahat or the

Mind. Raising prana without sadhana is just a game. There are cakras

behind cakras anyway.

 

People mistake Sakti for the energy instead of the consciousness

behind the energy-prana. As they mistake maya for illusion when it is

the power of illusion.

 

The ego mind rises in the heart. Energy rises around the solar plexus

cakra and adrenals........ONS....Tony.

[Guest guest]

> > I don't know what everybody got so hot about. (Don't tell me, I

> > don't want to know. ha, ha.)

> > I hope you will give me at least one good shot so I'll be like

one

> of

> > the gang.

> > Love,

> > Bob G.

 

Dear Tony:

You do not seem to be much in a joking mood right now. I'm guessing

it is the "bad guru" thing. My sympathies on this issue for you

because you obviously feel deeply and would like to make a difference.

I have not taken part in any activist agendas or politics since I

campaigned for McGovern in college. (Although I gripe about a lot of

stuff.) I don't vote for what I consider good reasons. I have been

approached many times to participate in very worthy causes. When I

refused the activist accused me of various attitudes I didn't mind

being accused of. The world seemed too big to make a difference. I

felt for some reason that if I became something first then whatever I

decided to do would be actually felt. I was the only one who could

make that determination.

I have been remembering the movie "Passage to India" today. I saw it

a long time ago but if I remember correctly the story centered around

the delusions of an English lady that hallucinated a rape by an

Indian man. His life of course was ruined. Through all the turmoil

the Brahmin played by Sir Alec Guiness could not be moved to care one

way or another what happened. But he was always there as a silent

influence.

I think this is what is overlooked by some activists. People are

bigger than actions.

Good Luck

Bob G.

[Guest guest]

, bgbbyg@a... wrote:

> > > I don't know what everybody got so hot about. (Don't tell me, I

> > > don't want to know. ha, ha.)

 

> I think this is what is overlooked by some activists. People are

> bigger than actions.

> Good Luck

> Bob G.

 

Namaste Bob,

 

The whole thing is a joke, discussing K is like discussing the

molecular structure of water to get out of the swimming pool.

 

I notice that a quote in Feuerstein's 'Tantra', attributed to Swami

Rama and co, p150. 'The cakras proved a sort of central point, an

underlying framework, in which a multitude of factors intersect and

interact.'

 

' Any attempt to express it in words is certain to prove to be only

partially successful.'p150.

 

'The fact that different authorities have mentioned diverse numbers of

cakras need not be taken as a sign of disagreement between them. The

cakras models are just that, models of reality that are designed to

help the practitioners, in their inward oddyssey from the many to the

one'...G Feuerstein.

 

Which kind a fits in with my theory of points of light through a

curtain, were the true work on consciousness needs to be done, on the

other side. Take away the physical and we would just see the nadis and

cakras of the subtle sheaths. The connection with the physical is as

transducers, also purification is needed for the body for vibrations

pass through to the inner mind.

Also that there are nothing but cakras and nadis in creation.

 

I have never verbalised it all like this before, for it is difficult

to express. I don't know whether it is my own theory or I share it

with others.

 

What I am saying is that K yoga is a method of concentration or a

yantra, that is its validity.

 

The world is ultimately unreal there is only Nirguna

Brahman.....ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

>

> Namaste Bob,

>

> The whole thing is a joke, discussing K is like discussing the

> molecular structure of water to get out of the swimming pool.

 

bg:I agree

> my theory of points of light through a

> curtain, where the true work on consciousness needs to be done, on

the other side.

 

bg:Absolutely

 

Take away the physical and we would just see the nadis and cakras of

the subtle sheaths.

 

bg: Okay

 

The connection with the physical is as transducers, also purification

is needed for the body for vibrations pass through to the inner mind.

 

bg: Purification of the body so the inner mind is not polluted?

>Also that there are nothing but cakras and nadis in creation.

 

bg: Ducts and junctures of energies make up the physical universe?

Some believe that matter is simply energy in motion. If energy is

coarse mind as I have been led to believe it would of course need

channels and focusing devices to manifest on the level of creatures

capable of detection.

 

I don't know whether it is my own theory or I share it

> with others.

 

bg: Well I'm out on a limb here because I don't know if I have

understood you correctly. Speculation on creation is something I

enjoy.

The Tao of Physics and Dancing Wu Lei Masters have given me some

insight I believe. If the tree falls in the forest and no-one is

there to hear it does it make a sound? The tree is only potential

until it is observed. Did Schroedinger's cat die before we know for

certain or does a wave front equation for both it's existence and

death certify that nothing has happened. Physicists want to know.

I saw a video by a physicist teaching remote viewing and he described

atma vichara as the preferred method of being in all places at once

to find the lost object. His presentation was pretty convincing and

according to him at least some of the physics community have jumped

on this boat.

>

> What I am saying is that K yoga is a method of concentration or a

> yantra, that is its validity.

 

bg: I agree that it is a tool but I don't understand validity the way

you are using it. Do you mean it is useful but not to be revered?

>

> The world is ultimately unreal there is only Nirguna

> Brahman.....ONS...Tony.

 

bg: 'When all is seen as the Self.' All what? What was before seen

as the world by an ego is now devoid of the ego and seen as the

Self.

Peace,

bg