The Great Uncertainty

[Guest guest]

How do we know what happens after death?

Has anyone actually come back from the grave

and told us with any authority what happened?

 

 

Yet, the Spiritual and Religious texts are full of myths and

paradigms as to what happens.

The teachers and Gurus lead us by the nose throughout our lives

because of the greatest uncertainty of all -

what happens during the dying process -

 

and at the death - from which we seek Salvation.

 

 

It is the fear of death which is ultimately behind the Spiritual and

Religious search for some Self-sense of Immortality -

 

 

Some seek Salvation in a utopic Heaven or Shamballah to the point of

selling our Souls in penance to avoid the depths of Hades - or even

worse, Purgatory .. suspension in Uncertainty.

 

 

Almost everyone has their own particular version of the "Great Myth"

which they will rigorously defend rather than face their own inner

"Great Uncertainty."

 

(and, in the course of my life, I've heard most of them)

 

 

Our survival instinct rooted in our fear of Death has become the

greatest underlying motivator for all thought and action - hope, need

and desire.

 

For some, it is this uncertainty which is behind all inaction -

the fear of "What's the point" ..

 

 

Yet, even the Buddha, when closely questioned as to what happens

after death, refused to be drawn into giving an answer.

 

Western Spirituality bases its beliefs on passages from the bible

concerning the experiences of the one we call Jesus - and even holds

this experience up as a reward which we can earn through striving in

servitude throughout our earthly lives.

 

 

Some even write from personal Near Death Experiences

and think they know what it is like after Death ..

 

and even though their experience is very real to them, it is

translated through the language of their own preconceptions - their

ideas of what it should be like, based on their own (conscious or

unconscious) religious beliefs.

 

The NDE, for the most part, is NOT an experience of dying, but the

experience of the shock of being separated from the body by accident.

 

It is an experience of "Death" in the physical sense as the cessation

of Life - but it is not the experience of a choice of overcoming the

great uncertainty and allowing the experience of an ending of the

separation between life and death.

 

 

Until this conscious choice can be made, the cycle of death-rebirth

still pervades in the individual consciousness.

 

The fear of death - the final "Great Uncertainty" is that which

separates the individual from the collective consciousness and keeps

our mind divided into conscious and unconscious. Even the use of the

word "Death" as in "dying to the past" is something which awakens a

great fear in the "Spiritual Disciple" and initiate.

 

 

So much so that some even use terms such as "Awakened" -

or "Awakening" - "Enlightenment" or "Self Realisation"

to avoid facing the "Great Uncertainty".

 

 

A new born child should have reasonable strong recollections of what

happens in the period between death and birth. But, then, as we grow

up, we are put under the pressures of religion and society by parents

and peers are themselves afraid of the mirror of their own mortality.

 

The original impressions become faded in the unconscious - except for

sudden glimpses which may come in our dreams - or in meditation - and

then our conditioned reality of the tangible framework of "living in

this world" makes us so suspicious of the experience that we treat it

as some sort of bad joke - or dismiss it altogether -

 

so recreating another cycle of the Great Uncertainty

and an even greater obstacle to personal liberation

as we deepen the divide between body and consciousness.

 

 

 

 

-- Christopher Wynter,

lifestreams

http://www.anunda.com

 

The material presented in this post is also archived for reference

on the open archive lifestreams

[Guest guest]

, Christopher Wynter <lifestreams@b...>

wrote:

>

> How do we know what happens after death?

 

Namaste All,

 

There's a great hooley of a wake if you left enough for the party.

Make sure you are in your wash and wear suit in case guests spill beer

over you in the open box. Or rather your corpse.......ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

Dear Christopher,

 

You wrote:

> The NDE, for the most part,

> is NOT an experience of dying,

 

So true, but I mean something different...

> but the experience of the shock of being

> separated from the body *by accident*.

 

So untrue, Christopher...

 

I would like to respond to your post, but before I do more fully, I would

like to know if you ever underwent any NDEs yourself.

 

Oh well, I will respond anyway.

 

As you know, I have experienced 7 NDEs.

Now, I would rather call a "Near Death Experience" a "Beyond Death

Experience" or actually...much much rather... a "Death Does Not Exist

Realization", but all right for now...

 

My last two NDEs had nothing to do with "a shock of being separated from the

body," by "accident" or not. Nevertheless they had all the characteristics

of what NDEs are documented to be in the accepted literature and more. I

also have to mention that most of my NDEs happened before I could even have

understood "grown-up" talk, let alone have read or heard about "death," let

alone "near death."

> It is the fear of death which is

> ultimately behind the Spiritual and

> Religious search for some Self-sense

> of Immortality -

 

I have absolutely no fear of death (whatever that may be), nor any fear of

life.

Have been tested a few times on that...

I have already mentioned before, that "the concept of finite death" only

exists in the experience of a non-participating observer. The subject of an

"end to physical life process" undergoes something totally different than

what is observed by the onlooker. Nobody can speak confidently and with

authority for the "entity" who undergoes the 'process' that the objectifying

observer happens to call "death."

If any people can claim at least some believable authority on this topic,

than it should first and foremost be those who have undergone such

experiences. Experiences that always account of a return from something that

was "near or even beyond death." They invariably characterize their

experiences as being more than the "accepted concepts of death."

> Almost everyone has their own

> particular version of the "Great Myth"

> which they will rigorously defend

> rather than face their own inner

> "Great Uncertainty."

> (and, in the course of my life,

> I've heard most of them)

 

I have "no great uncertainty", Christopher, not even "a little uncertainty."

But if my stance of certainty sounds like "rigorous defense" to you, than my

supposed defense must still be quite superior to your "rigorous defense" of

the "Great uncertainty."

Defending uncertainty defends only uncertainty... What kind of defense is

that? Who is unsure is already unsure, how can one defend something one is

not even sure about?

 

Thing is, that in view of certainty one can fully discount uncertainty.

Certainty always prevails, that is why it is called certainty.

> Yet, even the Buddha, when closely questioned

> as to what happens after death, refused to be

> drawn into giving an answer.

 

I'm not afraid to be drawn into an answer... being a few bodhisattva

generations further (ahum) than my best friends Buddha and Avalokiteshvara.

> Some even write from personal Near Death Experiences

 

Yep, I do!

>and think they know what it is like after Death ..

 

Nope, they know for sure what is beyond the usual concept of death.

And please Christopher, do not poopoo this... as "Jij hebt geen recht van

spreken!"

A Dutch saying that means something like, "You have not earned the right to

speak about this."

> and even though their experience is *very real to them*,

 

(-: And thus spoke a 'real man', who thinks he can make up someone else's

mind :-)

> it is translated through the language

> of their own preconceptions -

 

Oh no, perceptions not "preconceptions!"

And by the way, "What is real...?"

For sure not that, what we are forced to take on authority of someone else,

Christopher!

> preconceptions - their ideas of what it should

> be like, based on their own (conscious or

> unconscious) religious beliefs.

 

Like I said, I had these experiences even before I could know about

religion...

> It is an experience of "Death" in the

> physical sense as the cessation

> of Life - but it is not the experience

> of a choice of overcoming the

> great uncertainty and allowing the experience

> of an ending of the separation between life and death.

 

No, no, during a "mature NDE," (and most NDEs are mature, but ridicule and

"betweterij" (Dutch) by know-it-betters" still prevents clarity of speech

because of judgmental listening) during a "mature NDE" it is exactly THE

surrender to the fact that there is NO separation from the reality of

being...

In fact, one allows oneself to freely choose for life on any grosser or

subtler plane as one sees fit in freedom...

When I "came back" the last time, ('t was in Denver a few years ago) as I

wrote it about before, it was in full freedom...

> Until this conscious choice can be made,

> the cycle of death-rebirth still pervades

> in the individual consciousness.

 

Yes "the cycle of death and rebirth" is a concept that is not tenable at

all, being totally conceptual. "Past lives" stories can be accounted for in

a different manner.

It was in fact Buddha who wanted debunk the "conceptual cycles of

deaths-rebirths"

> The fear of death - the final "Great Uncertainty"

> is that which separates the individual from the

> *collective consciousness*

 

The neat thing is - and it is of great wonder - that individual

consciousness within collective consciousness (!) is indeed possible and by

definition indispensable and great fun. Relinquishing individual

consciousness within un-individuated consciousness is fully unwarranted and

unnecessary.

Your words "collective consciousness" may of course be an accidental

misnomer for Jung's "collective unconscious" but I like it :-)

> So much so that some even use terms such as

> "Awakened" -or "Awakening" - "Enlightenment"

> or "Self Realisation" to avoid facing the "Great Uncertainty".

 

The Realised of course do not use those terms that way at all.

> A new born child should have reasonable

> strong recollections of what happens in the

> period between death and birth.

 

Huh?

Death is an "adulterated" human concept, pure and simple.

Death does not even 'exist', if it 'existed', it would not be called

"death."

Death is only a concept, a conceptual 'end to' existence.

Of course you can have that mental concept but, you cannot give it

reality... only an illusory semblance of reality.

Reality and existence cannot end up in non-existence as non existence does

not even exist.

Non-existence cannot 'exist' except for 'fooling you around' in your own

mind.

A concepts has no value in reality... it is a temporary and dispensable

tool, like a mnemonic aid.

One uses a concept only to help make sense of something that does not make

sense yet.

Then when your conclusion has made you come to your senses you throw the

concept away...

 

Concepts, you just throw them away, recycling concepts is even worse then

keeping them...

Neat thing is that when you throw concepts away, they don't even litter.

(That is why when Tony O'Clery gives up on his concepts, his conceptual

sheaths will also clean up nicely...)

 

Reality is, it exists. "Non-existence" is a senseless statement.

 

Death cannot exist that why it is called death, nobody dies... as

non-existence does not exist.

> But, then, as we grow up, we are put under

> the pressures of religion and society by parents

> and peers are themselves afraid of the mirror

> of their own mortality.

 

You are absolutely right there.

> The original impressions become faded in

> the unconscious - except for sudden

> glimpses which may come in our dreams -

> or in meditation - and then our conditioned

> reality of the tangible framework of "living in

> this world" makes us so suspicious of the

> experience that we treat it as some sort of bad joke

> - or dismiss it altogether -

 

You are right.

> so recreating another cycle of the Great Uncertainty

> and an even greater obstacle to personal liberation

> as we deepen the divide between body and consciousness.

 

How can a person so right, be so wrong sometimes...

So, Christopher, hands off NDEs or "Death Does Not Exist Realizations" they

are real "total being" contacts with "Absolute Certainty" and I've come back

to tell you about it...

 

Love, Wim

 

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[Guest guest]

On 9/2/01 at 9:30 AM Christopher Wynter wrote:

 

ºHow do we know what happens after death?

ºHas anyone actually come back from the grave

ºand told us with any authority what happened?

[...]

For those with an engineering background , that's simple:

The complete removal of the potential to experience pain

will make the issue a moot one. That is what the Buddha

meant with the term "nirvana without substratum remaining".

Then, when the body dies, there are neither thoughts nor feelings

concerning the event - a non-event so to say. No myth, simply

'overshadowed' by the ongoing thoughts & feelings,

most on the issue of "i & mine".

 

Jan