Wim and Dan are expressing themselves correctly

September 23, 2001

Thank you Wim and Dan for this fascinating and lovely conversation. I am

reminded of the saying that when elephants make love, the grass suffers and

small creatures of God run here and there for safety.

Dan and Wim, if you can both state your positions concisely (or

non-positions if you are more comfortable with that word), and what you

perceive the position of the other is, that would be greatly appreciated.

Would asking for two paragraphs (no more than 10 lines each) from both of

you on this matter be OK?

After that is done, we can bring in Sri Gregji for an analysis befitting the

complexity of the conversations.

Thank you

Love

Harsha

Wim Borsboom [wim]

Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:11 AM

Nisargadatta;

RE: RE: Dan is expressing Dan correctly

Dear Dan,

I wrote:

> > It is about time that you responded, Dan.

> > Did you notice how the word 'correctly' triggered you?

You wrote:

> Did you notice how my response

> elicited the concept of "triggered"?

And did you notice that the word "triggered" elicited your response?

And on and on we can go...

This is an example of a common 'avoidance' maneuver, so tiring for the

person who keeps doing it.

Instead of dealing with content, the respondent starts dealing with process,

in an attempt to deviate from the issue at hand.

Nobody, that is why I brought it up...

> can you catch that lens as it interjects its constructs?

Catching lenses?

Lenses interjecting?

Constructs of the lens?

Language, Dan, don't stumble over words...

If you want to talk, speak, write, communicate, use your words

appropriately. When you are this messy with your metaphors, what kind of

mind has produced them?

September 24, 2001

Dear Harsha,

All my messages start with 'Dear' and end with 'Love...Wim'

And in all my posts, I am always very aware that I mean it when I type that

in.

Dan's reaction to my original email PS to El and Paul was based on his

'incorrect' :-) understanding of my use of the word 'correct'. He responded

a bit too quickly, and... in the corrective mode, nothing wrong with that, I

do that too (Ah, us teacher types, will we ever refrain from that?). Dan was

surely triggered by that word, no matter how (through sidestepping) he tried

to wiggle himself out of it: shifting onus, shape shifting and target

shifting. The clever Dan...I have seen him do that before with others, so

this excellent example (A+) enabled me to put it under the loop (Wim's lens

:-) It was about time...

My remarks about his 'objectification' (usually done to women), his personal

'time and space' problems, his problematizing of the "other", stand, - and I

trust that he takes it to heart as I take some of his suggestions to heart.

(But only grudgingly, okay? :-)

Whatever Dan wrote on 'perfect peace' was definitely about 'conditional

peace' which is not lasting and perfect at all, as it always culminates in

excommunication or abandonment and surrender.

I wrote:

> > That is why in love there is play

> > between the lover and the beloved,

> > the play of reciprocal mutuality.

Why did Dan react to that paragraph when he also writes:

> My response is quite simple:

> Love, be loved, be love.

I appreciate your very humorous 'elephant love' metaphor...

(Now let me count the lines... oops more than twenty :-(

Love, Harsha... Wim

Harsha [harsha-hkl]

Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:25 AM

Wim and Dan are expressing themselves correctly

Thank you Wim and Dan for this fascinating and lovely conversation. I am

reminded of the saying that when elephants make love, the grass suffers and

small creatures of God run here and there for safety.

Dan and Wim, if you can both state your positions concisely (or

non-positions if you are more comfortable with that word), and what you

perceive the position of the other is, that would be greatly appreciated.

Would asking for two paragraphs (no more than 10 lines each) from both of

you on this matter be OK?

After that is done, we can bring in Sri Gregji for an analysis befitting the

complexity of the conversations.

Thank you

Love

Harsha

Wim Borsboom [wim]

Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:11 AM

Nisargadatta;

RE: RE: Dan is expressing Dan correctly

Dear Dan,

I wrote:

> > It is about time that you responded, Dan.

> > Did you notice how the word 'correctly' triggered you?

You wrote:

> Did you notice how my response

> elicited the concept of "triggered"?

And did you notice that the word "triggered" elicited your response?

And on and on we can go...

This is an example of a common 'avoidance' maneuver, so tiring for the

person who keeps doing it.

Instead of dealing with content, the respondent starts dealing with process,

in an attempt to deviate from the issue at hand.

Nobody, that is why I brought it up...

> can you catch that lens as it interjects its constructs?

Catching lenses?

Lenses interjecting?

Constructs of the lens?

Language, Dan, don't stumble over words...

If you want to talk, speak, write, communicate, use your words

appropriately. When you are this messy with your metaphors, what kind of

mind has produced them?

/join

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

Your use of is subject to

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September 24, 2001

Dear Wim and Dan,

Thank you for appreciating my elephant joke. It encourages me to go on and

try to be even funnier.

Wim, by referring to you and Dan as elephants, I was not referring to the

lines or wrinkles on your body and face as you seem to have thought.

Elephants are big and you and Dan are both big and I was referring to the

largeness of your conversations and hearts. Communications which are

primarily word based are always subject to misunderstandings.

The bottom line is that we are an open group and many diverse perspectives

are represented here and not everyone can be expected to agree with

everything. supports both the ancient traditions and the

radical nonduality that appears to arise from the ancient traditions and is

yet independent of them.

We don't cater to a politically correct spiritual path and terms such as

nonduality and duality and enlightenment etc., are seen as terms with a

variety of meanings attributed to them. Our main philosophy is Ahimsa and

Universal Love.

Eric's great story about his friend reminded me of my philosophy professor

who used to stop his lectures in the middle of the class and look around at

all of us very carefully for a while and then would say, "Maybe it's all

just a mating dance" Class dismissed! :-).

Love

Harsha

Wim Borsboom [wim]

Monday, September 24, 2001 5:03 AM

RE: Wim and Dan are expressing themselves

correctly