Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 Hi JB, > And I would not be surprised, if 99,9999999999 % > and more of what's happening and being said at all > these 'enlightenment' web-sites, books and gatherings,.. > is, conventional Games.... Surely the correct number is 100 percent. All doing is games. Doesn't the illusion consist precisely of thinking that we can find something other than games to do? > > And most probably, what I write now, is also part > of some game, the game that there Must/might-be, > something Else than this Game. How could it be otherwise? You are writing a letter. An activity, a game. > whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of liver > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being chair- > electrocuted due to a crime.. Realization isn't about what you do with your life. Realized or not, your life will consist of games. There is no alternative. Life is activity. It will consist of activities. > > Or one consciously chooses to play the game > of one's choice, worldly, social or spiritual... What choice? There is no possibility of choice. As long as you are alive, you will play games. > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > Or .. ? I wonder if it might help to try to take very seriously, to notice in a very thorough way, that the games are inevitable. "You" will play them regardless of what You do. Rob - <JB789 <RamanaMaharshi> Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:53 AM [RamanaMaharshi] nothing but Games > The following might sound a bit, like depression/pessimism... > > ..but, Game, being a happening/behaviour within a certain set of > predefined and agreed upon (or forced upon) Rules, Roles, > rights&wrongs, good&bad values, shoulds¬s, directions .. > looking close enough, I see > _nothing but_ Games !.. > Arbitrary, man-made games. > Even in one's occupation with the most 'elevated, transcendental and > holy' matters.. though they give a peculiar energy/stimulation to the > body-mind, .. more of the same .. games & games. > And I would not be surprised, if 99,9999999999 % and more of what's > happening and being said at all these 'enlightenment' web-sites, > books and gatherings,.. is, conventional Games.. traditional or anti- > traditional or middle-path games. > And one may exchange one game for another, but the Same Game goes on. > And most probably, what I write now, is also part of some game,.. > the game that there Must/might-be, something Else than this Game. > War, religions, values in society, holy books, football, jobs, > rituals, relationships (incl. 'love'), nationalism, 'spiritual' > activities/practices/meditations and cults, traditions, hobbies, > believer/agnostic/atheist, dying in the Name of .., sticking to one > or dropping all spiritual clubs.. etc. etc. ... > all Games. > If it so, what happens ?.. > Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with all of > it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of liver > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being chair- > electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my head too > long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third eye with a > nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it has no > real meaning either way .." > Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks to the > saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' or 'non- > path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. > Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's choice, worldly, > social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute transcendental and > Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough for me'.. > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > Or .. ? > JB. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 The following might sound a bit, like depression/pessimism... ...but, Game, being a happening/behaviour within a certain set of predefined and agreed upon (or forced upon) Rules, Roles, rights&wrongs, good&bad values, shoulds¬s, directions .. looking close enough, I see _nothing but_ Games !.. Arbitrary, man-made games. Even in one's occupation with the most 'elevated, transcendental and holy' matters.. though they give a peculiar energy/stimulation to the body-mind, .. more of the same .. games & games. And I would not be surprised, if 99,9999999999 % and more of what's happening and being said at all these 'enlightenment' web-sites, books and gatherings,.. is, conventional Games.. traditional or anti- traditional or middle-path games. And one may exchange one game for another, but the Same Game goes on. And most probably, what I write now, is also part of some game,.. the game that there Must/might-be, something Else than this Game. War, religions, values in society, holy books, football, jobs, rituals, relationships (incl. 'love'), nationalism, 'spiritual' activities/practices/meditations and cults, traditions, hobbies, believer/agnostic/atheist, dying in the Name of .., sticking to one or dropping all spiritual clubs.. etc. etc. ... all Games. If it so, what happens ?.. Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with all of it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of liver trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being chair- electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my head too long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third eye with a nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it has no real meaning either way .." Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks to the saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' or 'non- path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's choice, worldly, social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute transcendental and Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough for me'.. Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- Or .. ? JB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 Dear JB, > I see > _nothing but_ Games !.. > Arbitrary, man-made games......... > Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with all of > it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of liver > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being chair- > electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my head too > long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third eye with a > nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it has no > real meaning either way .." > Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks to the > saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' or 'non- > path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. > Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's choice, worldly, > social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute transcendental and > Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough for me'.. > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > Or .. ? ....one realises all this is entirely dependent on what the 'I', making the statement, is understood to be. Is he the ego or the Self ? ....consider the sun and the world actions...the sun is necessary for daily activities. He does not however form part of the world actions; yet they cannot take place without the sun. He is the witness of the activities. So it is with the Self. The ego acts in the presence of the Self. He cannot exist without the Self. So long as egoity lasts the games go on. When egoity ceases to be, actions become spontaneous. The games might appear to go on but who on earth is playing them ? Regards Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 "One" ....stays centered in the true import of the word "I". 28. The full Consciousness (purna chit) which is not other than the true import of the word 'I', being non-different in all the principles (tattvas) and being other than the sense "I am the body", is the all-pervading Reality. 29. This complete wholeness pervades inside and outside all creations like ether, merging with them, and is itself formless. Dear, those who are submerged in this supreme bliss become that supreme bliss themselves. See, how wonderful! Sri Ramana Maharshi, "Devikalottara" , JB789@h... wrote: > The following might sound a bit, like depression/pessimism... > > ..but, Game, being a happening/behaviour within a certain set of > predefined and agreed upon (or forced upon) Rules, Roles, > rights&wrongs, good&bad values, shoulds¬s, directions .. > looking close enough, I see > _nothing but_ Games !.. > Arbitrary, man-made games. > Even in one's occupation with the most 'elevated, transcendental and > holy' matters.. though they give a peculiar energy/stimulation to the > body-mind, .. more of the same .. games & games. > And I would not be surprised, if 99,9999999999 % and more of what's > happening and being said at all these 'enlightenment' web-sites, > books and gatherings,.. is, conventional Games.. traditional or anti- > traditional or middle-path games. > And one may exchange one game for another, but the Same Game goes on. > And most probably, what I write now, is also part of some game,.. > the game that there Must/might-be, something Else than this Game. > War, religions, values in society, holy books, football, jobs, > rituals, relationships (incl. 'love'), nationalism, 'spiritual' > activities/practices/meditations and cults, traditions, hobbies, > believer/agnostic/atheist, dying in the Name of .., sticking to one > or dropping all spiritual clubs.. etc. etc. ... > all Games. > If it so, what happens ?.. > Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with all of > it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of liver > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being chair- > electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my head too > long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third eye with a > nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it has no > real meaning either way .." > Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks to the > saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' or 'non- > path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. > Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's choice, worldly, > social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute transcendental and > Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough for me'.. > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > Or .. ? > JB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 bgbbyg [bgbbyg] Wednesday, September 26, 2001 9:25 AM Re: nothing but Games "One" ....stays centered in the true import of the word "I". 28. The full Consciousness (purna chit) which is not other than the true import of the word 'I', being non-different in all the principles (tattvas) and being other than the sense "I am the body", is the all-pervading Reality. 29. This complete wholeness pervades inside and outside all creations like ether, merging with them, and is itself formless. Dear, those who are submerged in this supreme bliss become that supreme bliss themselves. See, how wonderful! Sri Ramana Maharshi, "Devikalottara" ******************************************* Beautiful. One of my favorites. For those who are interested in the few works Sri Ramana translated, wrote, or rearranged in his own inimitable way, see the book, "The Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi." Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 Beatiful, like Harsha says.. I wrote about first-hand living, most of us are in. You write quotations. It might be so for him. And perhaps for you.. but if it was so for you, why do you quote somebodyelse ? It is not so for me. For me, is what I communicated. No use to tell someone who is in hell or hungry ..:"but there Is a wonderful heaven, with lots of juicy astral fruits !" Is quoting another, part of the 'game' ? JB ------------------- , bgbbyg@a... wrote: > > "One" > ...stays centered in the true import of the word "I". > > 28. The full Consciousness (purna chit) which is not other than the > true import of the word 'I', being non-different in all the > principles (tattvas) and being other than the sense "I am the body", > is the all-pervading Reality. > > 29. This complete wholeness pervades inside and outside all > creations like ether, merging with them, and is itself formless. > Dear, those who are submerged in this supreme bliss become that > supreme bliss themselves. See, how wonderful! > > Sri Ramana Maharshi, "Devikalottara" > > , JB789@h... wrote: > > The following might sound a bit, like depression/pessimism... > > > > ..but, Game, being a happening/behaviour within a certain set of > > predefined and agreed upon (or forced upon) Rules, Roles, > > rights&wrongs, good&bad values, shoulds¬s, directions .. > > looking close enough, I see > > _nothing but_ Games !.. > > Arbitrary, man-made games. > > Even in one's occupation with the most 'elevated, transcendental > and > > holy' matters.. though they give a peculiar energy/stimulation to > the > > body-mind, .. more of the same .. games & games. > > And I would not be surprised, if 99,9999999999 % and more of what's > > happening and being said at all these 'enlightenment' web-sites, > > books and gatherings,.. is, conventional Games.. traditional or > anti- > > traditional or middle-path games. > > And one may exchange one game for another, but the Same Game goes > on. > > And most probably, what I write now, is also part of some game,.. > > the game that there Must/might-be, something Else than this Game. > > War, religions, values in society, holy books, football, jobs, > > rituals, relationships (incl. 'love'), nationalism, 'spiritual' > > activities/practices/meditations and cults, traditions, hobbies, > > believer/agnostic/atheist, dying in the Name of .., sticking to one > > or dropping all spiritual clubs.. etc. etc. ... > > all Games. > > If it so, what happens ?.. > > Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with all of > > it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of liver > > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being chair- > > electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my head too > > long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third eye with > a > > nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it has no > > real meaning either way .." > > Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks to the > > saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' or 'non- > > path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. > > Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's choice, > worldly, > > social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute transcendental > and > > Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough for > me'.. > > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > > Or .. ? > > JB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 Hello JB. We are aware of all the suffering in the world just as you are. This is a spiritual fellowship and we share in friendship and amity. It might be our personal experience or our feelings, it might be conversations, it might be quotes. If you resonate with something that is said here my friend, wonderful. If not, that is alright as well. People have to be natural, to be themselves, in order to experience wholeness which is their nature. This is first hand living. If being oneself means grieving, shedding tears for the suffering of others, embracing others, writing beautiful poetry, stories, and other things, well that is OK. We all do it. Love to all Harsha JB789 [JB789] Wednesday, September 26, 2001 10:13 AM Re: nothing but Games Beatiful, like Harsha says.. I wrote about first-hand living, most of us are in. You write quotations. It might be so for him. And perhaps for you.. but if it was so for you, why do you quote somebodyelse ? It is not so for me. For me, is what I communicated. No use to tell someone who is in hell or hungry ..:"but there Is a wonderful heaven, with lots of juicy astral fruits !" Is quoting another, part of the 'game' ? JB ------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 Dear JB Your earlier post was a eloquent statement of the problem. Yes, quoting is part of the game in my opinion. I also do a share of suffering in the different games. Less than some more than others. To tell you the truth it makes me cringe to think that I might say something that hurts someone else. I have noticed it is very difficult to know what would be intonation in speech on the message board. I could not tell if you were hurting a little or a lot, or, very put off by the game of enlightenment or just stating an insight. I certainly didn't mean to be a smartass. I was replying to a sincere statement with the same. If yours was a message intended to instruct and had left the ending blank to solicit the right answer I would have been answering a typical but heartfelt question with a typical but heartfelt Advaitic answer. About the quote, I had read that passage this morning and immediately came to the message board and read your post. I knew the answer to your question and a renowned athority to back it up so I replied without hesitation. You may not read this but I would like to say it, if I may be allowed to presume. Either you are disgusted with people saying things like 'it's all illusion' or you are in doubt there is anything but games, that maybe there is nothing more. You might know more about advaita than me, I don't know, but right now my doubts are very thin and I would like to say how I see it. These are my thoughts. The 'I' is unique in experience. Words denote something. The word 'I' denotes the subjective, that is, the actor. This is not the body but the sense of being. When you try to see the actor you become the "seer" because you are always the subject of any event. You cannot stop being the subject of the event. The real you cannnot participate in a game, only the one you call yourself. At any moment you can notice the actor in the game. You know this in those moments of clarity, or 'real time'. That is the experience of knowing the real self. You are not the one being seen but the one seeing. At that moment just 'being' yourself, nothing more. All the words about enlightenment written by sages are understandable with this experience as basis. Not jucy astral fruit. In the now, seeing the participation in the games is the "submerging of the mind". Once practiced relentlessy the mind will be destroyed as a separate thing to be seen playing games. The practice just eliminates the structure of two "I's", one doing it and the other seeing it being done. This is what I look at as 'non-dualism'. I have tried to make sense of the terrorism and I can't. The nationalism game is all about property. Either side could give it up at any time and it would all be over. These people who are playing that game see it as a game but do not make the connection that if they can see themselves in an event the creature they are seeing cannot be them because they must be the one seeing the creature in the event. Property means nothing in that state. The freedom in that experience is more precious. I don't mean to presume to much, just to say how I see it. Yours truly, Bobby , JB789@h... wrote: > Beatiful, like Harsha says.. > I wrote about first-hand living, most of us are in. > You write quotations. > It might be so for him. > And perhaps for you.. but if it was so for you, why do you quote > somebodyelse ? > It is not so for me. > For me, is what I communicated. > No use to tell someone who is in hell or hungry ..:"but there Is a > wonderful heaven, with lots of juicy astral fruits !" > Is quoting another, part of the 'game' ? > JB > > ------------------- , bgbbyg@a... wrote: > > > > "One" > > ...stays centered in the true import of the word "I". > > > > 28. The full Consciousness (purna chit) which is not other than > the > > true import of the word 'I', being non-different in all the > > principles (tattvas) and being other than the sense "I am the > body", > > is the all-pervading Reality. > > > > 29. This complete wholeness pervades inside and outside all > > creations like ether, merging with them, and is itself formless. > > Dear, those who are submerged in this supreme bliss become that > > supreme bliss themselves. See, how wonderful! > > > > Sri Ramana Maharshi, "Devikalottara" > > > > , JB789@h... wrote: > > > The following might sound a bit, like depression/pessimism... > > > > > > ..but, Game, being a happening/behaviour within a certain set of > > > predefined and agreed upon (or forced upon) Rules, Roles, > > > rights&wrongs, good&bad values, shoulds¬s, directions .. > > > looking close enough, I see > > > _nothing but_ Games !.. > > > Arbitrary, man-made games. > > > Even in one's occupation with the most 'elevated, transcendental > > and > > > holy' matters.. though they give a peculiar energy/stimulation to > > the > > > body-mind, .. more of the same .. games & games. > > > And I would not be surprised, if 99,9999999999 % and more of > what's > > > happening and being said at all these 'enlightenment' web- sites, > > > books and gatherings,.. is, conventional Games.. traditional or > > anti- > > > traditional or middle-path games. > > > And one may exchange one game for another, but the Same Game goes > > on. > > > And most probably, what I write now, is also part of some game,.. > > > the game that there Must/might-be, something Else than this Game. > > > War, religions, values in society, holy books, football, jobs, > > > rituals, relationships (incl. 'love'), nationalism, 'spiritual' > > > activities/practices/meditations and cults, traditions, hobbies, > > > believer/agnostic/atheist, dying in the Name of .., sticking to > one > > > or dropping all spiritual clubs.. etc. etc. ... > > > all Games. > > > If it so, what happens ?.. > > > Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with all > of > > > it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of liver > > > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being chair- > > > electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my head too > > > long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third eye > with > > a > > > nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it has > no > > > real meaning either way .." > > > Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks to > the > > > saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' or 'non- > > > path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. > > > Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's choice, > > worldly, > > > social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute transcendental > > and > > > Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough for > > me'.. > > > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > > > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > > > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > > > Or .. ? > > > JB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2001 Report Share Posted September 27, 2001 RamanaMaharshi, Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta@v...> wrote: > Dear JB, > > > I see > > _nothing but_ Games !.. > > Arbitrary, man-made games......... > > > Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with all of > > it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of liver > > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being chair- > > electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my head too > > long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third eye with a > > nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it has no > > real meaning either way .." > > Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks to the > > saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' or 'non- > > path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. > > Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's choice, worldly, > > social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute transcendental and > > Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough for me'.. > > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > > Or .. ? > ...one realises all this is entirely dependent on what the 'I', making the > statement, is understood to be. Is he the ego or the Self ? > > ...consider the sun and the world actions...the sun is necessary for daily > activities. He does not however form part of the world actions; yet they > cannot take place without the sun. He is the witness of the activities. So > it is with the Self. The ego acts in the presence of the Self. He cannot > exist without the Self. So long as egoity lasts the games go on. When egoity > ceases to be, actions become spontaneous. The games might appear to go on > but who on earth is playing them ? > > Regards > Miles Dear Miles, Yes, action is inevitable. And being trapped in its limitations, is due to not knowing/being the 'sun', I understand you to say. I can relate, to your pointer on egoic/spontaneous action.. seen this at least for moments. And "> but who on earth is playing them ?" .. intersting question, .. but I will refrain from pursuing that q., and rather return to the what-is, as seen from here (though perhaps faulty). However .., sometimes it happens, that I, for example, am in the process of getting up from my chair, or making a sandwhich, or saying something .. and I can suddenly get a kind of shock.. : I notice my hands/body moving, I hear my voice.. but, for a moment, I do not recognise them as 'mine'.. it's as if 'I' am not 'home' and first q. that comes up is "What the heck is _This ?!.. _Who was doing this, while I was not at 'home', consciously doing it ?!". Moreover, the tone of voice, sounds like a pre-recorded line I've picked up from somewhere.. and wonder 'What! in the world am I saying.. this impostor, is certainly not 'me'!.. I guess a form of being 'posessed'.. another 'game'-limitation-act. Does this have anything to do, with your q. ? Anyaway, I questioned, as that might be the one light, not belonging to this structure of endless models & paradigms (egoic games).. or maybe not. regards, JB ------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2001 Report Share Posted September 27, 2001 Dear Bobby, Thanks for your honest reply. But to clarify,.. I guess the essence of my posting was: There are (apparently, I do not know) the genuine discoverers who say ..there is something more to life than limitted games of endless paradigms. Then there are those who faithfully repeat/imitate them, while themselves are submerged in some form of game. Then there are those who, like me, whereever they turn (within, without), see only games and traps and cells of limitation,.. and want to question first hand. Questioning/enquiring honestly & ruthlessly, might be a 'first-step'-light, belonging to no game-form whatsoever... or maybe not. Anyway, that's what was behind my writing.. an invitation to a shared enquiry, and not a reaction of non-resonating (to which Harsha refered) with what the intention of this forum is. Is it a question of 'resonating' with this or that, or of discovering 'Truth' (if any) and 'resonating' with _that ? Regards, JB. , bgbbyg@a... wrote: > > Dear JB > Your earlier post was a eloquent statement of the problem. > Yes, quoting is part of the game in my opinion. I also do a share of > suffering in the different games. Less than some more than others. > To tell you the truth it makes me cringe to think that I might say > something that hurts someone else. > I have noticed it is very difficult to know what would be intonation > in speech on the message board. I could not tell if you were hurting > a little or a lot, or, very put off by the game of enlightenment or > just stating an insight. I certainly didn't mean to be a smartass. > I was replying to a sincere statement with the same. > If yours was a message intended to instruct and had left the ending > blank to solicit the right answer I would have been answering a > typical but heartfelt question with a typical but heartfelt Advaitic > answer. > About the quote, I had read that passage this morning and immediately > came to the message board and read your post. I knew the answer to > your question and a renowned athority to back it up so I replied > without hesitation. > You may not read this but I would like to say it, if I may be allowed > to presume. > Either you are disgusted with people saying things like 'it's all > illusion' or you are in doubt there is anything but games, that > maybe there is nothing more. You might know more about advaita than > me, I don't know, but right now my doubts are very thin and I would > like to say how I see it. > These are my thoughts. The 'I' is unique in experience. Words > denote something. The word 'I' denotes the subjective, that is, the > actor. This is not the body but the sense of being. When you try to > see the actor you become the "seer" because you are always the > subject of any event. You cannot stop being the subject of the > event. The real you cannnot participate in a game, only the one you > call yourself. At any moment you can notice the actor in the game. > You know this in those moments of clarity, or 'real time'. That is > the experience of knowing the real self. You are not the one being > seen but the one seeing. > At that moment just 'being' yourself, nothing more. > All the words about enlightenment written by sages are > understandable with this experience as basis. Not jucy astral fruit. > In the now, seeing the participation in the games is the "submerging > of the mind". Once practiced relentlessy the mind will be destroyed > as a separate thing to be seen playing games. The practice just > eliminates the structure of two "I's", one doing it and the other > seeing it being done. This is what I look at as 'non-dualism'. > I have tried to make sense of the terrorism and I can't. The > nationalism game is all about property. Either side could give it up > at any time and it would all be over. These people who are playing > that game see it as a game but do not make the connection that if > they can see themselves in an event the creature they are seeing > cannot be them because they must be the one seeing the creature in > the event. Property means nothing in that state. The freedom in > that experience is more precious. > I don't mean to presume to much, just to say how I see it. > Yours truly, > Bobby > > , JB789@h... wrote: > > Beatiful, like Harsha says.. > > I wrote about first-hand living, most of us are in. > > You write quotations. > > It might be so for him. > > And perhaps for you.. but if it was so for you, why do you quote > > somebodyelse ? > > It is not so for me. > > For me, is what I communicated. > > No use to tell someone who is in hell or hungry ..:"but there Is a > > wonderful heaven, with lots of juicy astral fruits !" > > Is quoting another, part of the 'game' ? > > JB > > > > ------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , bgbbyg@a... wrote: > > > > > > "One" > > > ...stays centered in the true import of the word "I". > > > > > > 28. The full Consciousness (purna chit) which is not other than > > the > > > true import of the word 'I', being non-different in all the > > > principles (tattvas) and being other than the sense "I am the > > body", > > > is the all-pervading Reality. > > > > > > 29. This complete wholeness pervades inside and outside all > > > creations like ether, merging with them, and is itself formless. > > > Dear, those who are submerged in this supreme bliss become that > > > supreme bliss themselves. See, how wonderful! > > > > > > Sri Ramana Maharshi, "Devikalottara" > > > > > > , JB789@h... wrote: > > > > The following might sound a bit, like depression/pessimism... > > > > > > > > ..but, Game, being a happening/behaviour within a certain set > of > > > > predefined and agreed upon (or forced upon) Rules, Roles, > > > > rights&wrongs, good&bad values, shoulds¬s, directions .. > > > > looking close enough, I see > > > > _nothing but_ Games !.. > > > > Arbitrary, man-made games. > > > > Even in one's occupation with the most 'elevated, > transcendental > > > and > > > > holy' matters.. though they give a peculiar energy/stimulation > to > > > the > > > > body-mind, .. more of the same .. games & games. > > > > And I would not be surprised, if 99,9999999999 % and more of > > what's > > > > happening and being said at all these 'enlightenment' web- > sites, > > > > books and gatherings,.. is, conventional Games.. traditional > or > > > anti- > > > > traditional or middle-path games. > > > > And one may exchange one game for another, but the Same Game > goes > > > on. > > > > And most probably, what I write now, is also part of some > game,.. > > > > the game that there Must/might-be, something Else than this > Game. > > > > War, religions, values in society, holy books, football, jobs, > > > > rituals, relationships (incl. 'love'), nationalism, 'spiritual' > > > > activities/practices/meditations and cults, traditions, > hobbies, > > > > believer/agnostic/atheist, dying in the Name of .., sticking to > > one > > > > or dropping all spiritual clubs.. etc. etc. ... > > > > all Games. > > > > If it so, what happens ?.. > > > > Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with all > > of > > > > it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of liver > > > > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being > chair- > > > > electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my head > too > > > > long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third eye > > with > > > a > > > > nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it has > > no > > > > real meaning either way .." > > > > Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks to > > the > > > > saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' > or 'non- > > > > path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. > > > > Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's choice, > > > worldly, > > > > social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute > transcendental > > > and > > > > Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough for > > > me'.. > > > > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > > > > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > > > > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > > > > Or .. ? > > > > JB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2001 Report Share Posted September 27, 2001 , JB789@h... wrote: > Dear Bobby, > Thanks for your honest reply. > > But to clarify,.. I guess the essence of my posting was: > There are (apparently, I do not know) the genuine discoverers who > say ..there is something more to life than limitted games of endless > paradigms. > Then there are those who faithfully repeat/imitate them, while > themselves are submerged in some form of game. bg.- To me this is the difference between Empirical knowledge and Revelatory knowledge. Thousands of years ago someone postulates that a person in a cave sees shadows of people on the cave wall. The observer and the observed world. This starts a line of revelations that isolates a thinker to describe the observed world better and better down through the ensuing generations. Each new revelation adding to the mountain of empirical knowledge. This can be learned by a game playing person who does nothing but parrot conceitedly. The original thinker not involved in memorizing data to promote a political agenda is overlooked until the next thinker studies her\his contribution and adds to it. But wait, revelation within the context of an isolated thinker came under fire by the Existentialists. Also by the non-dualists. The thinker is discovered to be a construction of the mind and the more valid the mountain of empirical data, the greater the obstacle to knowing the real Self (or in Existentialist terms, the greater the abyss). The parroter will never understand this. It requires revelation. Built within the mercy of Grace is the love of communication. We get to talk about it on the internet and enquire into the truth (if it exists) to our hearts content. > Then there are those who, like me, whereever they turn (within, > without), see only games and traps and cells of limitation,.. and > want to question first hand. Questioning/enquiring honestly & > ruthlessly, might be a 'first-step'-light, belonging to no game- form > whatsoever... bg. - Yes JB, true enquiry doesn't sound like a game of any sort to me. > or maybe not. bg.- Maybe not if the enquiry is selfish. Dualism here if, as some people say, enlightenment is sought for selfish purposes. Adopting a path designed for the destruction of the ego must be the opposite of selfishness. In the beginning for me it was something I wanted. A long time ago I read a bood titled I believe, The Master Game. The master game being the game of acting as if one is seeking enlightenment or search for unsullied truth. Some people believe it is impossible to think outside the context of a story or game. I haven't found a way to challenge that myself. > Anyway, that's what was behind my writing.. an invitation to a shared > enquiry, and not a reaction of non-resonating (to which Harsha > refered) with what the intention of this forum is. Is it a question > of 'resonating' with this or that, or of discovering 'Truth' (if any) > and 'resonating' with _that ? To resonate to the Truth (what is) must mean becoming like the Truth. Like a string resonates with a tuning fork and vibrates to the same pitch. You can become like a lie too. Or like a doubt. I thank you JB, for your excellent thoughts and this exchange of ideas. Best wishes, Bobby > Regards, > JB. > > > > > , bgbbyg@a... wrote: > > > > Dear JB > > Your earlier post was a eloquent statement of the problem. > > Yes, quoting is part of the game in my opinion. I also do a share > of > > suffering in the different games. Less than some more than > others. > > To tell you the truth it makes me cringe to think that I might say > > something that hurts someone else. > > I have noticed it is very difficult to know what would be > intonation > > in speech on the message board. I could not tell if you were > hurting > > a little or a lot, or, very put off by the game of enlightenment or > > just stating an insight. I certainly didn't mean to be a > smartass. > > I was replying to a sincere statement with the same. > > If yours was a message intended to instruct and had left the ending > > blank to solicit the right answer I would have been answering a > > typical but heartfelt question with a typical but heartfelt > Advaitic > > answer. > > About the quote, I had read that passage this morning and > immediately > > came to the message board and read your post. I knew the answer to > > your question and a renowned athority to back it up so I replied > > without hesitation. > > You may not read this but I would like to say it, if I may be > allowed > > to presume. > > Either you are disgusted with people saying things like 'it's all > > illusion' or you are in doubt there is anything but games, that > > maybe there is nothing more. You might know more about advaita > than > > me, I don't know, but right now my doubts are very thin and I would > > like to say how I see it. > > These are my thoughts. The 'I' is unique in experience. Words > > denote something. The word 'I' denotes the subjective, that is, > the > > actor. This is not the body but the sense of being. When you try > to > > see the actor you become the "seer" because you are always the > > subject of any event. You cannot stop being the subject of the > > event. The real you cannnot participate in a game, only the one > you > > call yourself. At any moment you can notice the actor in the > game. > > You know this in those moments of clarity, or 'real time'. That is > > the experience of knowing the real self. You are not the one being > > seen but the one seeing. > > At that moment just 'being' yourself, nothing more. > > All the words about enlightenment written by sages are > > understandable with this experience as basis. Not jucy astral > fruit. > > In the now, seeing the participation in the games is > the "submerging > > of the mind". Once practiced relentlessy the mind will be > destroyed > > as a separate thing to be seen playing games. The practice just > > eliminates the structure of two "I's", one doing it and the other > > seeing it being done. This is what I look at as 'non-dualism'. > > I have tried to make sense of the terrorism and I can't. The > > nationalism game is all about property. Either side could give it > up > > at any time and it would all be over. These people who are playing > > that game see it as a game but do not make the connection that if > > they can see themselves in an event the creature they are seeing > > cannot be them because they must be the one seeing the creature in > > the event. Property means nothing in that state. The freedom in > > that experience is more precious. > > I don't mean to presume to much, just to say how I see it. > > Yours truly, > > Bobby > > > > , JB789@h... wrote: > > > Beatiful, like Harsha says.. > > > I wrote about first-hand living, most of us are in. > > > You write quotations. > > > It might be so for him. > > > And perhaps for you.. but if it was so for you, why do you quote > > > somebodyelse ? > > > It is not so for me. > > > For me, is what I communicated. > > > No use to tell someone who is in hell or hungry ..:"but there Is > a > > > wonderful heaven, with lots of juicy astral fruits !" > > > Is quoting another, part of the 'game' ? > > > JB > > > > > > ------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , bgbbyg@a... wrote: > > > > > > > > "One" > > > > ...stays centered in the true import of the word "I". > > > > > > > > 28. The full Consciousness (purna chit) which is not other > than > > > the > > > > true import of the word 'I', being non-different in all the > > > > principles (tattvas) and being other than the sense "I am the > > > body", > > > > is the all-pervading Reality. > > > > > > > > 29. This complete wholeness pervades inside and outside all > > > > creations like ether, merging with them, and is itself > formless. > > > > Dear, those who are submerged in this supreme bliss become that > > > > supreme bliss themselves. See, how wonderful! > > > > > > > > Sri Ramana Maharshi, "Devikalottara" > > > > > > > > , JB789@h... wrote: > > > > > The following might sound a bit, like depression/pessimism... > > > > > > > > > > ..but, Game, being a happening/behaviour within a certain set > > of > > > > > predefined and agreed upon (or forced upon) Rules, Roles, > > > > > rights&wrongs, good&bad values, shoulds¬s, directions .. > > > > > looking close enough, I see > > > > > _nothing but_ Games !.. > > > > > Arbitrary, man-made games. > > > > > Even in one's occupation with the most 'elevated, > > transcendental > > > > and > > > > > holy' matters.. though they give a peculiar > energy/stimulation > > to > > > > the > > > > > body-mind, .. more of the same .. games & games. > > > > > And I would not be surprised, if 99,9999999999 % and more of > > > what's > > > > > happening and being said at all these 'enlightenment' web- > > sites, > > > > > books and gatherings,.. is, conventional Games.. traditional > > or > > > > anti- > > > > > traditional or middle-path games. > > > > > And one may exchange one game for another, but the Same Game > > goes > > > > on. > > > > > And most probably, what I write now, is also part of some > > game,.. > > > > > the game that there Must/might-be, something Else than this > > Game. > > > > > War, religions, values in society, holy books, football, > jobs, > > > > > rituals, relationships (incl. 'love'), > nationalism, 'spiritual' > > > > > activities/practices/meditations and cults, traditions, > > hobbies, > > > > > believer/agnostic/atheist, dying in the Name of .., sticking > to > > > one > > > > > or dropping all spiritual clubs.. etc. etc. ... > > > > > all Games. > > > > > If it so, what happens ?.. > > > > > Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with > all > > > of > > > > > it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of > liver > > > > > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being > > chair- > > > > > electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my head > > too > > > > > long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third > eye > > > with > > > > a > > > > > nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it > has > > > no > > > > > real meaning either way .." > > > > > Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks > to > > > the > > > > > saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' > > or 'non- > > > > > path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. > > > > > Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's choice, > > > > worldly, > > > > > social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute > > transcendental > > > > and > > > > > Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough > for > > > > me'.. > > > > > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > > > > > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > > > > > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > > > > > Or .. ? > > > > > JB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2001 Report Share Posted September 28, 2001 Thank you for the reply, Bobby. And thanks also to Harsha. JB , bgbbyg@a... wrote: > , JB789@h... wrote: > > Dear Bobby, > > Thanks for your honest reply. > > > > But to clarify,.. I guess the essence of my posting was: > > There are (apparently, I do not know) the genuine discoverers who > > say ..there is something more to life than limitted games of > endless > > paradigms. > > Then there are those who faithfully repeat/imitate them, while > > themselves are submerged in some form of game. > > bg.- To me this is the difference between Empirical knowledge and > Revelatory knowledge. > Thousands of years ago someone postulates that a person in a cave > sees shadows of people on the cave wall. The observer and the > observed world. > This starts a line of revelations that isolates a thinker to describe > the observed world better and better down through the ensuing > generations. Each new revelation adding to the mountain of empirical > knowledge. This can be learned by a game playing person who does > nothing but parrot conceitedly. The original thinker not involved in > memorizing data to promote a political agenda is overlooked until the > next thinker studies her\his contribution and adds to it. > > But wait, revelation within the context of an isolated thinker came > under fire by the Existentialists. Also by the non-dualists. The > thinker is discovered to be a construction of the mind and the more > valid the mountain of empirical data, the greater the obstacle to > knowing the real Self (or in Existentialist terms, the greater the > abyss). The parroter will never understand this. It requires > revelation. > Built within the mercy of Grace is the love of communication. We get > to talk about it on the internet and enquire into the truth (if it > exists) to our hearts content. > > > Then there are those who, like me, whereever they turn (within, > > without), see only games and traps and cells of limitation,.. and > > want to question first hand. Questioning/enquiring honestly & > > ruthlessly, might be a 'first-step'-light, belonging to no game- > form > > whatsoever... > > bg. - Yes JB, true enquiry doesn't sound like a game of any sort to > me. > > > or maybe not. > > bg.- Maybe not if the enquiry is selfish. Dualism here if, as some > people say, enlightenment is sought for selfish purposes. Adopting a > path designed for the destruction of the ego must be the opposite of > selfishness. > In the beginning for me it was something I wanted. A long time ago I > read a bood titled I believe, The Master Game. The master game being > the game of acting as if one is seeking enlightenment or search for > unsullied truth. Some people believe it is impossible to think > outside the context of a story or game. I haven't found a way to > challenge that myself. > > > Anyway, that's what was behind my writing.. an invitation to a > shared > > enquiry, and not a reaction of non-resonating (to which Harsha > > refered) with what the intention of this forum is. Is it a question > > of 'resonating' with this or that, or of discovering 'Truth' (if > any) > > and 'resonating' with _that ? > > To resonate to the Truth (what is) must mean becoming like the > Truth. Like a string resonates with a tuning fork and vibrates to > the same pitch. You can become like a lie too. Or like a doubt. > I thank you JB, for your excellent thoughts and this exchange of > ideas. > > Best wishes, > Bobby > > > Regards, > > JB. > > > > > > > > > > , bgbbyg@a... wrote: > > > > > > Dear JB > > > Your earlier post was a eloquent statement of the problem. > > > Yes, quoting is part of the game in my opinion. I also do a > share > > of > > > suffering in the different games. Less than some more than > > others. > > > To tell you the truth it makes me cringe to think that I might > say > > > something that hurts someone else. > > > I have noticed it is very difficult to know what would be > > intonation > > > in speech on the message board. I could not tell if you were > > hurting > > > a little or a lot, or, very put off by the game of enlightenment > or > > > just stating an insight. I certainly didn't mean to be a > > smartass. > > > I was replying to a sincere statement with the same. > > > If yours was a message intended to instruct and had left the > ending > > > blank to solicit the right answer I would have been answering a > > > typical but heartfelt question with a typical but heartfelt > > Advaitic > > > answer. > > > About the quote, I had read that passage this morning and > > immediately > > > came to the message board and read your post. I knew the answer > to > > > your question and a renowned athority to back it up so I replied > > > without hesitation. > > > You may not read this but I would like to say it, if I may be > > allowed > > > to presume. > > > Either you are disgusted with people saying things like 'it's all > > > illusion' or you are in doubt there is anything but games, that > > > maybe there is nothing more. You might know more about advaita > > than > > > me, I don't know, but right now my doubts are very thin and I > would > > > like to say how I see it. > > > These are my thoughts. The 'I' is unique in experience. Words > > > denote something. The word 'I' denotes the subjective, that is, > > the > > > actor. This is not the body but the sense of being. When you try > > to > > > see the actor you become the "seer" because you are always the > > > subject of any event. You cannot stop being the subject of the > > > event. The real you cannnot participate in a game, only the one > > you > > > call yourself. At any moment you can notice the actor in the > > game. > > > You know this in those moments of clarity, or 'real time'. That > is > > > the experience of knowing the real self. You are not the one > being > > > seen but the one seeing. > > > At that moment just 'being' yourself, nothing more. > > > All the words about enlightenment written by sages are > > > understandable with this experience as basis. Not jucy astral > > fruit. > > > In the now, seeing the participation in the games is > > the "submerging > > > of the mind". Once practiced relentlessy the mind will be > > destroyed > > > as a separate thing to be seen playing games. The practice just > > > eliminates the structure of two "I's", one doing it and the other > > > seeing it being done. This is what I look at as 'non-dualism'. > > > I have tried to make sense of the terrorism and I can't. The > > > nationalism game is all about property. Either side could give > it > > up > > > at any time and it would all be over. These people who are > playing > > > that game see it as a game but do not make the connection that if > > > they can see themselves in an event the creature they are seeing > > > cannot be them because they must be the one seeing the creature > in > > > the event. Property means nothing in that state. The freedom in > > > that experience is more precious. > > > I don't mean to presume to much, just to say how I see it. > > > Yours truly, > > > Bobby > > > > > > , JB789@h... wrote: > > > > Beatiful, like Harsha says.. > > > > I wrote about first-hand living, most of us are in. > > > > You write quotations. > > > > It might be so for him. > > > > And perhaps for you.. but if it was so for you, why do you > quote > > > > somebodyelse ? > > > > It is not so for me. > > > > For me, is what I communicated. > > > > No use to tell someone who is in hell or hungry ..:"but there > Is > > a > > > > wonderful heaven, with lots of juicy astral fruits !" > > > > Is quoting another, part of the 'game' ? > > > > JB > > > > > > > > ------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , bgbbyg@a... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > "One" > > > > > ...stays centered in the true import of the word "I". > > > > > > > > > > 28. The full Consciousness (purna chit) which is not other > > than > > > > the > > > > > true import of the word 'I', being non-different in all the > > > > > principles (tattvas) and being other than the sense "I am the > > > > body", > > > > > is the all-pervading Reality. > > > > > > > > > > 29. This complete wholeness pervades inside and outside all > > > > > creations like ether, merging with them, and is itself > > formless. > > > > > Dear, those who are submerged in this supreme bliss become > that > > > > > supreme bliss themselves. See, how wonderful! > > > > > > > > > > Sri Ramana Maharshi, "Devikalottara" > > > > > > > > > > , JB789@h... wrote: > > > > > > The following might sound a bit, like > depression/pessimism... > > > > > > > > > > > > ..but, Game, being a happening/behaviour within a certain > set > > > of > > > > > > predefined and agreed upon (or forced upon) Rules, Roles, > > > > > > rights&wrongs, good&bad values, shoulds¬s, directions .. > > > > > > looking close enough, I see > > > > > > _nothing but_ Games !.. > > > > > > Arbitrary, man-made games. > > > > > > Even in one's occupation with the most 'elevated, > > > transcendental > > > > > and > > > > > > holy' matters.. though they give a peculiar > > energy/stimulation > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > body-mind, .. more of the same .. games & games. > > > > > > And I would not be surprised, if 99,9999999999 % and more > of > > > > what's > > > > > > happening and being said at all these 'enlightenment' web- > > > sites, > > > > > > books and gatherings,.. is, conventional Games.. > traditional > > > or > > > > > anti- > > > > > > traditional or middle-path games. > > > > > > And one may exchange one game for another, but the Same > Game > > > goes > > > > > on. > > > > > > And most probably, what I write now, is also part of some > > > game,.. > > > > > > the game that there Must/might-be, something Else than this > > > Game. > > > > > > War, religions, values in society, holy books, football, > > jobs, > > > > > > rituals, relationships (incl. 'love'), > > nationalism, 'spiritual' > > > > > > activities/practices/meditations and cults, traditions, > > > hobbies, > > > > > > believer/agnostic/atheist, dying in the Name of .., > sticking > > to > > > > one > > > > > > or dropping all spiritual clubs.. etc. etc. ... > > > > > > all Games. > > > > > > If it so, what happens ?.. > > > > > > Either one says: .. "well if it's all a hoax, the hell with > > all > > > > of > > > > > > it ! .. whether I die at the end of a healthy life or of > > liver > > > > > > trouble due to being an alchoholic or of AIDS.. or of being > > > chair- > > > > > > electrocuted due to a crime.. or of yoga-standing on my > head > > > too > > > > > > long..or committing suicide, or of trying to open my third > > eye > > > > with > > > > > a > > > > > > nail and hammer (as some tradition actually recommends)..it > > has > > > > no > > > > > > real meaning either way .." > > > > > > Or one closes the eyes to the what-is, and joins and sticks > > to > > > > the > > > > > > saving-raft/rope(or end of it) of one's choice..'THE Way' > > > or 'non- > > > > > > path', in great pink (&hidden) hopes.. > > > > > > Or one consciously chooses to play the game of one's > choice, > > > > > worldly, > > > > > > social or spiritual, _As If_ it was some 'absolute > > > transcendental > > > > > and > > > > > > Ultimate reality or means thereto' or at least 'good enough > > for > > > > > me'.. > > > > > > Or one believes "it's all illusion" .. or "it's all God" .. > > > > > > Or one confesses "I know nothing!", while > > > > > > actually utterly drowning, in one of the above games.- > > > > > > Or .. ? > > > > > > JB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.