Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 david.bozzi (AT) netzero (DOT) net wrote: http://www.lef.org/news/disease/2001/09/30/INDT/0000-0419-KEYWORD.Miss ing.html pardon - but this article no longer exists at this link up here - can anyone cut and paste it to me? I am very interested. thanx, valerie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 On Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:04:14 -0000 david.bozzi writes: > http://www.lef.org/news/disease/2001/09/30/INDT/0000-0419-KEYWORD.Miss > ing.html > I understand your concern for the possible hazards of SSRI therapy, but this article came across as both biased and very vague. Having some experience of what treatment for depression was like *before* SSRIs, I must agree with the consensus of mental health professionals that these chemicals are tools that work very well in the vast majority of cases -- cases where older alternatives tended to be ineffective (psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, meditative practices, herbal remedies) or brutally crude (directly psychoactive chemicals like amphetamines, electroshock therapy). http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 Dear David, Oh, what a can of worms you just opened... I have not much time to respond right now..., just note that the withdrawal symptoms are the same as the symptoms of depression... Oh well, let me spend a few minutes on this... After the patients were not taking the anti depressant anymore, the users just reverted back to their old depression, except now... they were more outspoken and aware... which is actually... a positive result of the treatment. Also, most of the side effects listed of SSRIs ARE symptoms of depression. Before the drug treatment those symptoms were held in, not expressed - now... while using the SSRIs the patients become more aware of them and... express them... When this is treated as a positive response, the treatment works even better... That is the kind of work I do with clients that come to me ... who are on SSRIs Also - this is important - the people who are 'exposed' by a 'now outspoken' previously depressed person, do not appreciate being exposed... Many of the 'anti SSRI campaign' warnings and opposition comes from those quarters... Love, Wim david.bozzi [david.bozzi] Monday, October 01, 2001 7:04 AM SSRI Toxicity http://www.lef.org/news/disease/2001/09/30/INDT/0000-0419-KEYWORD.Missing.ht ml /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release 9/5/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release 9/5/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 08:53:55 -0700 "Wim Borsboom" <wim writes: > Thanks Bruce. You're welcome, Wim, and thanks for your experiential testimony. > > > Bruce Morgen [editor] > Monday, October 01, 2001 3:48 PM > > Re: SSRI Toxicity > > > On Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:04:14 -0000 david.bozzi writes: > > > http://www.lef.org/news/disease/2001/09/30/INDT/0000-0419-KEYWORD.Miss > > ing.html > > > I understand your concern for > the possible hazards of SSRI > therapy, but this article > came across as both biased > and very vague. Having some > experience of what treatment > for depression was like > *before* SSRIs, I must agree > with the consensus of mental > health professionals that > these chemicals are tools > that work very well in the > vast majority of cases -- > cases where older > alternatives tended to be > ineffective (psychotherapy, > hypnotherapy, meditative > practices, herbal remedies) > or brutally crude (directly > psychoactive chemicals like > amphetamines, electroshock > therapy). > http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 On Mon, 01 Oct 2001 08:18:21 -0700 v <akvalerian > writes: david.bozzi (AT) netzero (DOT) net wrote: http://www.lef.org/news/disease/2001/09/30/INDT/0000-0419-KEYWORD.Miss ing.html pardon - but this article no longer exists at this link up here - can anyone cut and paste it to me? I am very interested. thanx, It's there, Val -- the URL got truncated by word-wrap. Just append the wrapped material onto the end of the failed URL in your browser, in this case it's "ing.html," then press <Enter>. http://come.to/realizationhttp://www.atman.net/realizationhttp://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htmhttp://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 I realize that along with the ex-Ecstacy disco-stepping crowd there are some people so crippled by depression that these SSRI make life preferable to total dysfunction, and for them those drugs work wonders, with derference to Wim and Bruce. I took Prozac for a couple years and i did notice the low level electricity currents to such a degree that i stopped taking it. In my case I thought it was peculiar to myself, as no one told me that it was a side effect and did not realize it was so serious! Now I take Topamax - from the family of anti-spasmotic meds given for epilepsy - found to be effective for mood disorders and chronic (physical) pain. Another one is Neurontin. Anyone know the skinny on these? Do people think more in a general way that anti-depressives and mood enhancers inhibit progress upon the spiritual path? My main spiritual advisor does (naturally)! valerie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 Dear Bruce -- Psychotherapy is not necessarily an alternative to antidepressant medication, as often there is an effect synergy between the two. After all, biochemicals, relationships, thoughts, and feelings are not alternatives to each other. They are one interconnecting system ... It's not either/or, it's a continuum, although, of course, sometimes one aspect or another of the continuum is emphasized in recovery from depression.. Often it's a "both/and" approach that is helpful. Love, Dan --- Bruce Morgen <editor wrote: > > On Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:04:14 -0000 > david.bozzi writes: > > > http://www.lef.org/news/disease/2001/09/30/INDT/0000-0419-KEYWORD.Miss > > ing.html > > > I understand your concern for > the possible hazards of SSRI > therapy, but this article > came across as both biased > and very vague. Having some > experience of what treatment > for depression was like > *before* SSRIs, I must agree > with the consensus of mental > health professionals that > these chemicals are tools > that work very well in the > vast majority of cases -- > cases where older > alternatives tended to be > ineffective (psychotherapy, > hypnotherapy, meditative > practices, herbal remedies) > or brutally crude (directly > psychoactive chemicals like > amphetamines, electroshock > therapy). > > > http://come.to/realization > http://www.atman.net/realization > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm > ______________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for > less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > Listen to your Mail messages from any phone. http://phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:00:02 -0700 (PDT) d b <dan330033 writes: > Dear Bruce -- > > Psychotherapy is not necessarily an alternative > to antidepressant medication, as often > there is an effect synergy between the > two. After all, biochemicals, relationships, > thoughts, and feelings are not alternatives > to each other. They are one interconnecting > system ... > > It's not either/or, it's a continuum, > although, of course, > sometimes one aspect or another of the > continuum is emphasized in recovery from > depression.. > > Often it's a "both/and" approach that is helpful. > Unfortunately, the insurance providers seem to disagree -- they tend to be generous about drug therapy and the attendent monitoring but much less so when it comes to open-ended talk therapy. Can you point me in the direction of studies that indicate psychotherapy plus an SSRI is more effective than the SSRI alone? Thanks in advance, Dan! Much love -- Bruce > > > --- Bruce Morgen <editor wrote: > > > > On Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:04:14 -0000 > > david.bozzi writes: > > > > > > http://www.lef.org/news/disease/2001/09/30/INDT/0000-0419-KEYWORD.Miss > > > ing.html > > > > > I understand your concern for > > the possible hazards of SSRI > > therapy, but this article > > came across as both biased > > and very vague. Having some > > experience of what treatment > > for depression was like > > *before* SSRIs, I must agree > > with the consensus of mental > > health professionals that > > these chemicals are tools > > that work very well in the > > vast majority of cases -- > > cases where older > > alternatives tended to be > > ineffective (psychotherapy, > > hypnotherapy, meditative > > practices, herbal remedies) > > or brutally crude (directly > > psychoactive chemicals like > > amphetamines, electroshock > > therapy). > > http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 On Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:28:26 -0700 v <akvalerian writes: > I realize that along with the ex-Ecstacy disco-stepping crowd there > are > some > people so crippled by depression that these SSRI make life > preferable to > total > dysfunction, and for them those drugs work wonders, with derference > to > Wim and > Bruce. > I took Prozac for a couple years and i did notice the low level > electricity > currents to such a degree that i stopped taking it. In my case I > thought > it was > peculiar to myself, as no one told me that it was a side effect and > did > not > realize it was so serious! > Now I take Topamax - from the family of anti-spasmotic meds given > for > > epilepsy - found to be effective for mood disorders and chronic > (physical) > pain. Another one is Neurontin. > Anyone know the skinny on these? > > Do people think more in a general way that anti-depressives and > mood > enhancers inhibit progress upon the spiritual path? My main > spiritual advisor does (naturally)! > There's a chicken-egg issue here that's yet (and needs) to be resolved: does insufficient seratonin level *cause* depression or is it a *symptom* of depression that incidentally reverses depression when remedied? There's a rampant assumption from many "spiritual" and "organic" folks that it's the latter, and I question that while I also question those practitioners who seem to give out SSRIs as if they were M&Ms! As to what can "inhibit progress upon the spiritual path," a lot the answers one gets come from an era before synthesized psychoactive chemicals, and therefore would seem to be based on insufficient information. I tend to view the answer to that question as *extremely* personal and impossible to usefully generalize. I do know that it's eminently possible to be so depressed and/or anxious that one literally cannot function, let alone "progress upon the spiritual path" (whatever that is other than life itself)! http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 Hi Bruce -- It's been awhile since I've been looking at this kind of research, so I don't have it right at hand. Most metastudies that I looked at showed talk therapy plus SSRI's being the most effective treatment, but saw some saying talk therapy alone (usually cited as "cognitive behavioral", sometimes c-b or interpersonal) could be as effective as either meds alone or med plus talk. Insurance companies and HMO's are notoriously designed to make a profit as their basis for what is true. Bruce -- in what I was saying, I was saying from my own experience in the field. I've worked with people weaning from SSRI's, people taking SSRI's and benefitting, and people working without using medication. Medication is a tool, not an answer. Each person is unique, as well as the same :-) Namaste, Dan --- Bruce Morgen <editor wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:00:02 -0700 (PDT) d b > <dan330033 writes: > > Dear Bruce -- > > > > Psychotherapy is not necessarily an alternative > > to antidepressant medication, as often > > there is an effect synergy between the > > two. After all, biochemicals, relationships, > > thoughts, and feelings are not alternatives > > to each other. They are one interconnecting > > system ... > > > > It's not either/or, it's a continuum, > > although, of course, > > sometimes one aspect or another of the > > continuum is emphasized in recovery from > > depression.. > > > > Often it's a "both/and" approach that is helpful. > > > Unfortunately, the insurance > providers seem to disagree -- > they tend to be generous about > drug therapy and the attendent > monitoring but much less so > when it comes to open-ended > talk therapy. Can you point > me in the direction of studies > that indicate psychotherapy > plus an SSRI is more effective > than the SSRI alone? Thanks > in advance, Dan! > > Much love -- Bruce > > > > > > > > --- Bruce Morgen <editor wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:04:14 -0000 > > > david.bozzi writes: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.lef.org/news/disease/2001/09/30/INDT/0000-0419-KEYWORD.Miss > > > > ing.html > > > > > > > I understand your concern for > > > the possible hazards of SSRI > > > therapy, but this article > > > came across as both biased > > > and very vague. Having some > > > experience of what treatment > > > for depression was like > > > *before* SSRIs, I must agree > > > with the consensus of mental > > > health professionals that > > > these chemicals are tools > > > that work very well in the > > > vast majority of cases -- > > > cases where older > > > alternatives tended to be > > > ineffective (psychotherapy, > > > hypnotherapy, meditative > > > practices, herbal remedies) > > > or brutally crude (directly > > > psychoactive chemicals like > > > amphetamines, electroshock > > > therapy). > > > > > > http://come.to/realization > http://www.atman.net/realization > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm > ______________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for > less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > Listen to your Mail messages from any phone. http://phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Dear akvalerian and Bruce Akvalerian wrote: > Do people think more in a general way that anti-depressives and > mood enhancers inhibit progress upon the spiritual path? > My main spiritual advisor does (naturally)! SSRIs in no way interfere with realization, liberation or enlightenment... They may however interfere with one's spiritual path... as some spiritual paths involve and thrive on dependence... A person emerging from depression will at some point rise above dependence... Not all spiritual guides appreciate that... This is tricky, like I said in my previous post on this subject, this opens a can of worms. (BTW, as far as anti-depressants are concerned, always follow your physicians advice carefully... Most of them know exactly how this works...) > Now I take Topamax - from the family of anti-spasmotic meds given > for epilepsy - found to be effective for mood disorders and chronic > (physical) pain. Another one is Neurontin. Anyone know the skinny on these? Some people do better with treatment for an under-active thyroid...in their case SSRIs don't work. Problem is the usual blood tests don't spot thyroid problems in its infancy, naturopaths do this better. A simple home test: Take your temperature 5 mornings in a row, about 15 minutes before you get out of bed with an old fashioned thermometer UNDER THE ARMPIT. Keep still. Keep a log. Ensure that you shake the thermometer down before you go to bed, so that you don't need to do it in the morning as this will influence the reading. When your temperature is overall below 97.6 contact a naturopathic doctor. People with thyroid problem have at some point been 'held by the throat', literally or figuratively... Another way to check for a low thyroid is to put your left arm on a table, extending your left hand down and flat on the table top. Look for the knuckle under your index finger where the index finger joins the palm of your hand (the third joint next to your thumb). If there is space underneath, and if it is hard to keep this space closed, there is a possibility of low thyroid energy. If you suspect a low thyroid, first thing to do is start using Celtic unrefined gray sea salt, start eating nori (the dark green stuff around sushi), dulse, kelp. Go to a health food store and inquire about iodine supplements. See your doctor... but... he or she may laugh at you... if so... see a naturopathic doctor. Speak your truth... Stand up for yourself... Learn to trust yourself again. Start humming, vibrating that throat (Aum is good) Yawn a lot in the throat and chest area, while expanding your chest, stretching you arms backwards. Open up your armpits... Love yourself, weep, feel "sorrow" for yourself, take it up for yourself. Don't ever be shut up again... Love, Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release 9/5/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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