Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Dear James, You wrote: > Ultimately, you know that 'you' will die, > So, sooner or later, you have to Trust Love. Such a sentence may sound 'beautiful, but it is really quite sloppy and philosophically, psychologically and spiritually unsound... which is luckily 'good news' :-) Firstly: If the certainty-of-death (or the fear-of-death, or whatever the reason may be) will get you to love or "Trust Love," what kind of trust is that, what kind of love is that? Certainly not unconditional... Secondly: Death only occurs conceptually in the mind of a non-participating onlooker who is observing a process taking place with someone else usually called 'death'. Thirdly: Someone undergoing that process (the process that is usually called 'death') has a totally different perspective... Nobody can talk to anybody about 'death' from subjective experience... It would not be death, would it be? Fourthly: In fact, the ones who talk from experience, possibly because of a (usually called) Near Death Experience, they assure you that 'death' does not exist... They assure you in fact, that only love is real... and that is what causes them to "Trust Love" even more. So, James, luckily you've got it the wrong way around....I am so happy to say. Love, James... Wim PS. James Traverse wrote: > Ultimately, you know that 'you' will die, > So, sooner or later, you have to Trust Love. I once overheard a caterpillar saying to another one, while quoting James Traverse: "Ultimately, you know that 'you' will die..." The other caterpillar cut him off, not in the least alarmed... "I doubt that!" the caterpillar answered, "I always dream of us having wings one day, and that we will fly." --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release 9/5/2001 Attachment: (application/ms-tnef) winmail.dat [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 common wimsan...stop trying to misunderstand everything!...get out of the pulpit once in a while and listen deeper to the meaning behind the words....^^~~~~~ love's sacred warrior "What will you surrender for Love? Are you willing to give up your fears?" -James Traverse what is the difference between love and war? how much distinction is there between compassion and hate? love rejected and scorned may turn into pride pride wounded arises as anger anger expressed arises as hatred, hatred erupting arises as violence violence manifesting arises as chaos chaos destroying order returns to the source the source is like water resident in all things it rests in what lies beneath it shines on jagged pinnacles it runs wild and free over land it soars in what lies beyond love rejected and scorned eventually turns into humility humility is the searing balm of angry tears angry tears forge the keen sword of justice the sword of justice restores fallen divinity divinity is love resurrected as compassion how much distinction is there between compassion and love? how much difference is there between war and hate? in your right you hold a sword, on your left hand you wear a ring at the center of the ring, on the edge of the sword pride surrenders to humility, love embraces hate one sacred warrior kneels at his beloved's holy feet one warrior accepting defeat arises into divinity these three remain, love, hatred and compassion but the greatest of these is compassion compassion transcends turbulence mark christopher valentine - "Wim Borsboom" <wim <> Wednesday, October 03, 2001 8:16 AM Re: Trust Love (for the wrong reasons) > Dear James, > > You wrote: > > Ultimately, you know that 'you' will die, > > So, sooner or later, you have to Trust Love. > > Such a sentence may sound 'beautiful, but it is really quite sloppy and > philosophically, psychologically and spiritually unsound... which is luckily > 'good news' :-) > > Firstly: > If the certainty-of-death (or the fear-of-death, or whatever the reason may > be) will get you to love or "Trust Love," what kind of trust is that, what > kind of love is that? > Certainly not unconditional... > > Secondly: > Death only occurs conceptually in the mind of a non-participating onlooker > who is observing a process taking place with someone else usually called > 'death'. > > Thirdly: > Someone undergoing that process (the process that is usually called 'death') > has a totally different perspective... Nobody can talk to anybody about > 'death' from subjective experience... It would not be death, would it be? > > Fourthly: > In fact, the ones who talk from experience, possibly because of a (usually > called) Near Death Experience, they assure you that 'death' does not > exist... They assure you in fact, that only love is real... and that is what > causes them to "Trust Love" even more. > > So, James, luckily you've got it the wrong way around....I am so happy to > say. > > Love, James... Wim > > PS. > James Traverse wrote: > > Ultimately, you know that 'you' will die, > > So, sooner or later, you have to Trust Love. > > I once overheard a caterpillar saying to another one, while quoting James > Traverse: > "Ultimately, you know that 'you' will die..." > The other caterpillar cut him off, not in the least alarmed... > "I doubt that!" the caterpillar answered, "I always dream of us having wings > one day, and that we will fly." > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release 9/5/2001 > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release 09/25/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Dear Mark, White Wolfe [valemar.1] > common wimsan...stop trying to misunderstand everything!... > get out of the pulpit once in a while and listen deeper to the meaning > behind the words....^^~~~~~ Mark, you wrote: > common wimsan... :-) "common" indeed (-: Oops, did I understand that wrongly? > ... trying to misunderstand everything!... :-) "common" indeed (-: You also wrote: > love's sacred warrior > "What will you surrender for Love? > Are you willing to give up your fears?" > -James Traverse truth's sacred warrior What will you surrender for Truth? Are you willing to give up your misunderstandings? life's sacred warrior What will you surrender for Life? Are you willing to give up your illusion of death? Love you Mark... Wim :-) Life Truth Love Sat Chit Ananda --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release 9/5/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Hi Wim, Thanks for the reply. I'm sure that you are aware that there is no 'right' or 'wrong'. And, there are different ways to describe the same thing. In addition to what has already been said, I feel that both our comments are valid and I could also say that neither is. Ultimately, 'you' know that 'you' will die - so will 'your'/'my' point of view. In 'your'/'my' absence there is a Presence - that is Love. Love, James Love james , "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote: > Dear James, > > You wrote: > > Ultimately, you know that 'you' will die, > > So, sooner or later, you have to Trust Love. > > Such a sentence may sound 'beautiful, but it is really quite sloppy and > philosophically, psychologically and spiritually unsound... which is luckily > 'good news' :-) > > Firstly: > If the certainty-of-death (or the fear-of-death, or whatever the reason may > be) will get you to love or "Trust Love," what kind of trust is that, what > kind of love is that? > Certainly not unconditional... > > Secondly: > Death only occurs conceptually in the mind of a non-participating onlooker > who is observing a process taking place with someone else usually called > 'death'. > > Thirdly: > Someone undergoing that process (the process that is usually called 'death') > has a totally different perspective... Nobody can talk to anybody about > 'death' from subjective experience... It would not be death, would it be? > > Fourthly: > In fact, the ones who talk from experience, possibly because of a (usually > called) Near Death Experience, they assure you that 'death' does not > exist... They assure you in fact, that only love is real... and that is what > causes them to "Trust Love" even more. > > So, James, luckily you've got it the wrong way around....I am so happy to > say. > > Love, James... Wim > > PS. > James Traverse wrote: > > Ultimately, you know that 'you' will die, > > So, sooner or later, you have to Trust Love. > > I once overheard a caterpillar saying to another one, while quoting James > Traverse: > "Ultimately, you know that 'you' will die..." > The other caterpillar cut him off, not in the least alarmed... > "I doubt that!" the caterpillar answered, "I always dream of us having wings > one day, and that we will fly." > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release 9/5/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 hey wimje...EXACTLY!....(bad typing...not common but, come on....com'on....common lets get disshoe on de road....;-)......ik moet nu gaan....doie....toot ziens....ciao....im outta here man.....^^~~~~~ - "Wim Borsboom" <wim <> Wednesday, October 03, 2001 4:42 PM RE: Re: Trust Love (for the wrong reasons) > Dear Mark, > > > White Wolfe [valemar.1] > > > common wimsan...stop trying to misunderstand everything!... > > get out of the pulpit once in a while and listen deeper to the meaning > > behind the words....^^~~~~~ > > Mark, you wrote: > > common wimsan... > > :-) "common" indeed (-: > Oops, did I understand that wrongly? > > > ... trying to misunderstand everything!... > > :-) "common" indeed (-: > > You also wrote: > > love's sacred warrior > > > "What will you surrender for Love? > > Are you willing to give up your fears?" > > -James Traverse > > truth's sacred warrior > > What will you surrender for Truth? > Are you willing to give up your misunderstandings? > > life's sacred warrior > > What will you surrender for Life? > Are you willing to give up your illusion of death? > > Love you Mark... Wim :-) > > Life Truth Love > Sat Chit Ananda > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release 9/5/2001 > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release 09/25/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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