God Bless America/Jerry

______________

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November 26, 2001

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Turn the other cheek, and all that.

Cant we all just get on with Loving each other. We've all been there

in some lifetime or another.

Just be in your hearts nothing else is required. No questions, no

answers. Cant we just drag ourselves out of memory and let it all

go.

Much love

Ejaye

----

In a message dated 11/26/01 11:23:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,

editor (AT) juno (DOT) com writes:<< rrorism." However, I'd say the

generations-long genocide of Native Americans is clearly an atrocity

that *dwarfs* the events of 9/11, and imo there is no excusing it or

evading its consequences.>>l would never excuse past actions of the

US toward Native Americans, which indeed were terribly wrong and had

tragic consequences. But it should be stated that the *genocide* to

which you refer has been clearly documented to be far more the result

of disease than anything else -- unfortunately Native Americans lacked

immunity and were devastated by germs carried by westerners. lt's also

pointless to attempt to compare what was done by the US (primarily in

the 19th century and distant past) to what was done 2 months ago.

Actions, however bad they were, deserve to be judged in the context

of their own time and all relevant circumstances that existed then.

Not only the respective actions themselves are so completely

different in nature, but the state of civilization, technology,

culture, prevailing morality and everything else are so radically

different today than the distant past that it makes no sense to try

to make this comparison. lt's apples and oranges. l also submit that

it is highly inappropriate to sieze upon the present as a time to

journey through history in order to do a laundry list of past US

sins, especially when they bear no relation to the current situation.

That is, unless one is also prepared to discuss all relevant factors

and then balance it out by doing a similar list of all the ways in

which the US has benefitted this planet. Now is that a proper

exercise for this list? l don't think so, but that's just my opinion.

jerrysan rinpoche

/join

All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to

__ IncrediMail -

Email has finally evolved - Click Here

November 26, 2001

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:43:06 EST GCWein1111 writes:

> In a message dated 11/26/01 11:23:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> editor writes:

>

> << rrorism." However, I'd say

> the generations-long genocide

> of Native Americans is clearly

> an atrocity that *dwarfs* the

> events of 9/11, and imo there

> is no excusing it or evading

> its consequences.

> >>

>

> l would never excuse past actions of the US toward Native

> Americans,

> which indeed were terribly wrong and had tragic consequences. But it

> should

> be stated that the *genocide* to which you refer has been clearly

> documented

> to be far more the result of disease than anything else --

> unfortunately

> Native Americans lacked immunity and were devastated by germs

> carried by

> westerners.

There was *far* more to the

government-sponsored genocide

than disease, although I'm

sure that was a major factor.

>

> lt's also pointless to attempt to

> compare

> what was done by the US (primarily in the 19th century and distant

> past) to what was done 2 months ago.

On that we disagree. There

is a *huge* commonality that

can be learned from, if we're

not too offhandedly

dismissive.

> Actions, however bad they were, deserve to be

> judged in the context of their own time and all relevant

> circumstances that

> existed then.

Of course, but that does not

erase the aforementioned

commonality.

> Not only the respective actions themselves are so completely

> different in nature, but the state of civilization, technology,

> culture,

> prevailing morality and everything else are so radically different

> today than

> the distant past that it makes no sense to try to make this

> comparison. lt's apples and oranges.

>

Apples and oranges are both

fruits that grow on trees.

There is a commonality even

if they are not directly

comparable.

> l also submit that it is highly

> inappropriate to

> sieze upon the present as a time to journey through history in order

> to do a

> laundry list of past US sins, especially when they bear no relation

> to the

> current situation.

I think the malaise to which

both historical facts point

is very much the same: the

dehumanization of ones

perceived foe in the name of

a deeply held belief in the

unconditional righteousness

of ones cause under the

auspices of a "the end

justifies the means" sort of

mentality. Many nineteenth

century Americans believed

in the superiority of their

way of life and its destiny

to prevail by the grace of

God, as do Bin Laden and

those who follow and/or

support him.

> That is, unless one is also prepared to discuss all

> relevant factors and then balance it out by doing a similar list

> of all the

> ways in which the US has benefitted this planet. Now is that a

> proper

> exercise for this list? l don't think so, but that's just my

> opinion.

>

Opinion noted. In my

opinion one is not obligated

to be comprehensive in order

to learn something, even if

it's only to discover that

while both apples and oranges

have virtues, neither one has

divine sanction to wipe out

the other on the basis of

said virtues.

>

> jerrysan

> rinpoche

Much love -- Bruce

______________

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>http://come.to/realization

November 26, 2001

Bruce and Jerry,

I haven't read this entire thread, but this point of Bruce-ji's leapt out

at me, Bruce-ji. If apples and oranges were not similar in some important

aspect, there would be no purpose in pointing out that they are different.

No one says, "Aw, that's something different, like apples and pimple cream."

Love,

--Greg

At 12:55 AM 11/27/01, Bruce Morgen wrote:

>> Not only the respective actions themselves are so completely

>> different in nature, but the state of civilization, technology,

>> culture,

>> prevailing morality and everything else are so radically different

>> today than

>> the distant past that it makes no sense to try to make this

>> comparison. lt's apples and oranges.

>

>>

>Apples and oranges are both

>fruits that grow on trees.

>There is a commonality even

>if they are not directly

>comparable.

>

>> l also submit that it is highly

>> inappropriate to

>> sieze upon the present as a time to journey through history in order

>> to do a

>> laundry list of past US sins, especially when they bear no relation

>> to the

>> current situation.

>

>I think the malaise to which

>both historical facts point

>is very much the same: the

>dehumanization of ones

>perceived foe in the name of

>a deeply held belief in the

>unconditional righteousness

>of ones cause under the

>auspices of a "the end

>justifies the means" sort of

>mentality. Many nineteenth

>century Americans believed

>in the superiority of their

>way of life and its destiny

>to prevail by the grace of

>God, as do Bin Laden and

>those who follow and/or

>support him.

>

>> That is, unless one is also prepared to discuss all

>> relevant factors and then balance it out by doing a similar list

>> of all the

>> ways in which the US has benefitted this planet. Now is that a

>> proper

>> exercise for this list? l don't think so, but that's just my

>> opinion.

>>

>Opinion noted. In my

>opinion one is not obligated

>to be comprehensive in order

>to learn something, even if

>it's only to discover that

>while both apples and oranges

>have virtues, neither one has

>divine sanction to wipe out

>the other on the basis of

>said virtues.

>>

>> jerrysan

>> rinpoche

>

>Much love -- Bruce

>

>http://www.atman.net/realization

>http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm

>http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

>______________

>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

>

>/join

>

>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is

Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality

of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

a.

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

November 26, 2001

Well said Jerry. It also should be pointed out, that our adversaries, as

well as almost every country on the planet has some "dirty laundry" to air

from some past event.

I am truly enjoying your clear-minded statements, Jerry. Thank you for

expressing them so eloquently.

Love, Lynette

-

<GCWein1111

<>

Monday, November 26, 2001 5:43 PM

Re: God Bless America/Jerry

> In a message dated 11/26/01 11:23:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> editor writes:

>

> << rrorism." However, I'd say

> the generations-long genocide

> of Native Americans is clearly

> an atrocity that *dwarfs* the

> events of 9/11, and imo there

> is no excusing it or evading

> its consequences.

> >>

>

> l would never excuse past actions of the US toward Native Americans,

> which indeed were terribly wrong and had tragic consequences. But it

should

> be stated that the *genocide* to which you refer has been clearly

documented

> to be far more the result of disease than anything else -- unfortunately

> Native Americans lacked immunity and were devastated by germs carried by

> westerners.

> lt's also pointless to attempt to compare

> what was done by the US (primarily in the 19th century and distant past)

to

> what was done 2 months ago. Actions, however bad they were, deserve to be

> judged in the context of their own time and all relevant circumstances

that

> existed then. Not only the respective actions themselves are so completely

> different in nature, but the state of civilization, technology, culture,

> prevailing morality and everything else are so radically different today

than

> the distant past that it makes no sense to try to make this comparison.

lt's

> apples and oranges.

> l also submit that it is highly inappropriate to

> sieze upon the present as a time to journey through history in order to do

a

> laundry list of past US sins, especially when they bear no relation to the

> current situation. That is, unless one is also prepared to discuss all

> relevant factors and then balance it out by doing a similar list of all

the

> ways in which the US has benefitted this planet. Now is that a proper

> exercise for this list? l don't think so, but that's just my opinion.

>

> jerrysan

> rinpoche

>

> /join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

November 27, 2001

as one american to another it seems to me that there is a great amount of

either brain-washing evidenced in this response or, perhaps, selective

recall....the boston tea-party is more political myth than history....how

many died in the american war against british capitalism....how many are

still to die in the war against american capitalism.....the issues are more

complex than simple patriotism will allow.....awake....^^~~~~~

-

<GCWein1111

<>

Monday, November 26, 2001 8:08 PM

Re: God Bless America/Jerry

> In a message dated 11/25/01 11:23:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> valemar.1 writes:

>

> << how soon we forget that the american dream is grounded in terrorism

> against both the british who may have deserved it and the native american

> indians (who did not) >>

>

> l think you're on to something here, WW ... The

> Boston Tea Party remains to this day the most monstrous act of terrorism

in

> recorded history -- responsible, no doubt, for the subsequent

deterioration

> of the British empire. Given the choice, l'm sure that Bush and most

> Americans would easily prefer having the WTC, Pentagon and Capitol

Building

> destroyed and loss of 5,000 lives to the stupifying prospect of having a

> boatload of our tea dumped into the ocean. Your historical insights are

truly

> beyond compare.

>

> ln Gratitude,

> jerrysan rinpoche

>

> /join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

November 27, 2001

.....ok....what is the real interest of the us in afganistan...why are the us

and russia suddenly bed-fellows....does it have anything to do with

oil?....in taking control of afganistan are the us capitalistic interests in

sustaining a petro-chemical based technology and life-style being served

first and freedom second....every empire justifies its depradations in the

name of progress....assuming that 'progress' has been made, how long can we

sustain the same vector before the duality of nature requires a

correction....the reserves of oil are limited....all the technology upon

which we depend including these very machines upon which we depend for this

discussion are petroleum dependent and ultimately hostile to the natural

environment....^^~~~~~~

-

<GCWein1111

<>

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:43 AM

Re: God Bless America/Jerry

> In a message dated 11/26/01 11:23:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> editor writes:

>

> << rrorism." However, I'd say

> the generations-long genocide

> of Native Americans is clearly

> an atrocity that *dwarfs* the

> events of 9/11, and imo there

> is no excusing it or evading

> its consequences.

> >>

>

> l would never excuse past actions of the US toward Native Americans,

> which indeed were terribly wrong and had tragic consequences. But it

should

> be stated that the *genocide* to which you refer has been clearly

documented

> to be far more the result of disease than anything else -- unfortunately

> Native Americans lacked immunity and were devastated by germs carried by

> westerners.

> lt's also pointless to attempt to compare

> what was done by the US (primarily in the 19th century and distant past)

to

> what was done 2 months ago. Actions, however bad they were, deserve to be

> judged in the context of their own time and all relevant circumstances

that

> existed then. Not only the respective actions themselves are so completely

> different in nature, but the state of civilization, technology, culture,

> prevailing morality and everything else are so radically different today

than

> the distant past that it makes no sense to try to make this comparison.

lt's

> apples and oranges.

> l also submit that it is highly inappropriate to

> sieze upon the present as a time to journey through history in order to do

a

> laundry list of past US sins, especially when they bear no relation to the

> current situation. That is, unless one is also prepared to discuss all

> relevant factors and then balance it out by doing a similar list of all

the

> ways in which the US has benefitted this planet. Now is that a proper

> exercise for this list? l don't think so, but that's just my opinion.

>

> jerrysan

> rinpoche

>

> /join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

November 27, 2001

.....love....higher love is not sentimental.....the dinosaurs came and

went....will humanity become a dinosaur.....or will it evolve......^^~~~~~~

-

ejaye.moran

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:51 AM

Re: God Bless America/Jerry

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Turn the other cheek, and all that.

Cant we all just get on with Loving each other. We've all been there in

some lifetime or another.

Just be in your hearts nothing else is required. No questions, no

answers. Cant we just drag ourselves out of memory and let it all go.

Much love

Ejaye

----

26 November 2001 23:43:26

Re: God Bless America/Jerry

In a message dated 11/26/01 11:23:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,

editor writes:

<< rrorism." However, I'd say

the generations-long genocide

of Native Americans is clearly

an atrocity that *dwarfs* the

events of 9/11, and imo there

is no excusing it or evading

its consequences.

>>

l would never excuse past actions of the US toward Native Americans,

which indeed were terribly wrong and had tragic consequences. But it

should

be stated that the *genocide* to which you refer has been clearly

documented

to be far more the result of disease than anything else -- unfortunately

Native Americans lacked immunity and were devastated by germs carried by

westerners.

lt's also pointless to attempt to compare

what was done by the US (primarily in the 19th century and distant past)

to

what was done 2 months ago. Actions, however bad they were, deserve to

be

judged in the context of their own time and all relevant circumstances

that

existed then. Not only the respective actions themselves are so

completely

different in nature, but the state of civilization, technology, culture,

prevailing morality and everything else are so radically different today

than

the distant past that it makes no sense to try to make this comparison.

lt's

apples and oranges.

l also submit that it is highly inappropriate to

sieze upon the present as a time to journey through history in order to

do a

laundry list of past US sins, especially when they bear no relation to

the

current situation. That is, unless one is also prepared to discuss all

relevant factors and then balance it out by doing a similar list of all

the

ways in which the US has benefitted this planet. Now is that a proper

exercise for this list? l don't think so, but that's just my opinion.

jerrysan

rinpoche

/join

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean,

all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does

not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is.

Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee

relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into

It Self. Welcome all to a.

Your use of is subject to

__

IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

Sponsor

/join

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean,

all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does

not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is.

Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee

relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into

It Self. Welcome all to a.

November 27, 2001

.....to paraphrase lao zu....my brother is my enemy second.....under the

mantle of 'manifest destiny', i.e., we are mighty because we are right or

because we are good we have been rewarded, america has portrayed itself in a

duel role playing both the champion of under-priviledge which exploiting the

human and natural resources of those who have not been fortunate enough to

be born in the new 'israel of north america'.....in short, we want our cake

and to eat it to.....we believe that the weapon of our success (continuous

economic growth based on technology harmful to the bio-sphere) will solve

the problems that it has created.....if you build a bomb eventually it will

explode.....the modern myth is a blind belief in scientific technological

materialism......all myths are ultimately exposed when the clay feet of

their gods crumbles......will these gods fall before it is too late....many

(non-pessimistic) scientists believe that we have about 200 years at the

outside to awaken as a race.....^^~~~~~~

-

"Bruce Morgen" <editor

<>

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:55 AM

Re: God Bless America/Jerry

>

> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:43:06 EST GCWein1111 writes:

> > In a message dated 11/26/01 11:23:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > editor writes:

> >

> > << rrorism." However, I'd say

> > the generations-long genocide

> > of Native Americans is clearly

> > an atrocity that *dwarfs* the

> > events of 9/11, and imo there

> > is no excusing it or evading

> > its consequences.

> > >>

> >

> > l would never excuse past actions of the US toward Native

> > Americans,

> > which indeed were terribly wrong and had tragic consequences. But it

> > should

> > be stated that the *genocide* to which you refer has been clearly

> > documented

> > to be far more the result of disease than anything else --

> > unfortunately

> > Native Americans lacked immunity and were devastated by germs

> > carried by

> > westerners.

>

> There was *far* more to the

> government-sponsored genocide

> than disease, although I'm

> sure that was a major factor.

>

> >

> > lt's also pointless to attempt to

> > compare

> > what was done by the US (primarily in the 19th century and distant

> > past) to what was done 2 months ago.

>

> On that we disagree. There

> is a *huge* commonality that

> can be learned from, if we're

> not too offhandedly

> dismissive.

>

> > Actions, however bad they were, deserve to be

> > judged in the context of their own time and all relevant

> > circumstances that

> > existed then.

>

> Of course, but that does not

> erase the aforementioned

> commonality.

>

> > Not only the respective actions themselves are so completely

> > different in nature, but the state of civilization, technology,

> > culture,

> > prevailing morality and everything else are so radically different

> > today than

> > the distant past that it makes no sense to try to make this

> > comparison. lt's apples and oranges.

>

> >

> Apples and oranges are both

> fruits that grow on trees.

> There is a commonality even

> if they are not directly

> comparable.

>

> > l also submit that it is highly

> > inappropriate to

> > sieze upon the present as a time to journey through history in order

> > to do a

> > laundry list of past US sins, especially when they bear no relation

> > to the

> > current situation.

>

> I think the malaise to which

> both historical facts point

> is very much the same: the

> dehumanization of ones

> perceived foe in the name of

> a deeply held belief in the

> unconditional righteousness

> of ones cause under the

> auspices of a "the end

> justifies the means" sort of

> mentality. Many nineteenth

> century Americans believed

> in the superiority of their

> way of life and its destiny

> to prevail by the grace of

> God, as do Bin Laden and

> those who follow and/or

> support him.

>

> > That is, unless one is also prepared to discuss all

> > relevant factors and then balance it out by doing a similar list

> > of all the

> > ways in which the US has benefitted this planet. Now is that a

> > proper

> > exercise for this list? l don't think so, but that's just my

> > opinion.

> >

> Opinion noted. In my

> opinion one is not obligated

> to be comprehensive in order

> to learn something, even if

> it's only to discover that

> while both apples and oranges

> have virtues, neither one has

> divine sanction to wipe out

> the other on the basis of

> said virtues.

> >

> > jerrysan

> > rinpoche

>

> Much love -- Bruce

>

> http://come.to/realization

> http://www.atman.net/realization

> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm

> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

> ______________

> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

>

> /join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

November 27, 2001

In a message dated 11/26/01 5:00:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, editor

writes

There was *far* more to the

government-sponsored genocide

than disease, although I'm

sure that was a major factor.

Not "A" major factor, Bruce. Disease was THE major factor -- BY FAR.

Your use of the word genocide is entirely wrong, in that it refers to a

systematic killing of a people. There was no program by the US government in

the 1800s to kill off all the Native Americans. The program was, as you know,

to take as much of the land as possible, and if Natives were there, too bad

for them. And yes, they were subsequently persecuted culturally and

spiritually as well. This was all bad enough, but it was not genocide. We've

seen enough cases of true genocide in this century to know what it really is.

On that we disagree. There

is a *huge* commonality that

can be learned from, if we're

not too offhandedly

dismissive.

Who's being dismissive? Not me. l've long felt deeply about what

happened to Native Americans. l say it has nothing to do with what happened

on Sept 11.

I think the malaise to which

both historical facts point

is very much the same: the

dehumanization of ones

perceived foe in the name of

a deeply held belief in the

unconditional righteousness

of ones cause under the

auspices of a "the end

justifies the means" sort of

mentality. Many nineteenth

century Americans believed

in the superiority of their

way of life and its destiny

to prevail by the grace of

God, as do Bin Laden and

those who follow and/or

support him.

Yes, out of both arrogance and ignorance 19th century Americans

shamefully took from Native Americans. They were hardly alone. lt happened to

the native inhabitants of Mexico, South America, Africa, Australia and other

places at the hands of European powers. How many indigenous cultures have

survived on this planet, Bruce? Not many. lt's a shame. But that's what the

world was like in past centuries. That doesn't justify what was done here,

but that's what the world was then. There was no United Nations. There were

no Human Rights committees. There was hardly what would now pass for

civilization. You use fuzzy words like *commonality* and misuse the word

*genocide* in trying to link what was done by people from a bygone era to the

acts of fundamentalist, hate filled fanatics who have shown a desire to kill

endllessly in order to achieve a goal of global warfare between lslam and

the west. l find that a most unfortunate and untenable exercise.

jerry

November 27, 2001

In a message dated 11/27/01 10:22:49 AM Mountain Standard Time,

editor writes:

<< The attempted

destruction of Native

American cultures very nearly

succeeded regardless of the

fact that total and

systematic extermination of

Native Americans did not

occur. >>

There was a deliberate plan to slaughter as many buffalo as possible to

severely limit the Native American food supply. I'd call this genocide and

something else, too. Holly

November 27, 2001

In a message dated 11/27/01 9:22:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, editor

writes:

I'm not buying into your

very narrow definition of

"genocide," although I'm

sure it's legally the

correct one. I'm going by

the broader principal of

"by their fruits shall ye

know them," and the "fruits"

of nineteenth century

government (the aggregate

effect of federal, state, and

local) policies in the U.S.

meets my personal criterion

for genocide. The attempted

destruction of Native

American cultures very nearly

succeeded regardless of the

fact that total and

systematic extermination of

Native Americans did not

occur.

Ha ha ha .... come on now, Bruce. First you say my definition of genocide

is narrow, then you admit it's the legally correct one and then say that

you're inventing your own definition. As l said, the vast majority of

Native American deaths ( l believe the figure is about 90%) died from

diseases that were unintentionally transmitted by European settlers. lf that

hadn't happened, it's reasonable to suppose that Native Americans and their

culture would've survived more intact. l don't disagree that the US trampled

on and suppressed Native American culture (as occurred on a global basis)

which was terribly wrong, but it wasn't genocide.

Of course, the terrorist

activities of Bin Laden et

al aren't strictly genocidal

either -- their stated aim is

the expulsion of non-Muslims

from the holy sites in

Arabia, a very specific goal

that has nothing to do with

destruction of western

culture or the extermination

of westerners. The

instigation of worldwide

jihad is just a means to

that end, assuming that the

public statements are honest.

The goal of bin Laden is far more than expulsion of non-muslims from holy

sites in the Saudia Arabia, according to most who have interviewed him. lt's

said to be the instigation of all out war between lslam and the west. His

strong and broad appeal to true believers throughout the Muslim world is

based on far more than simply getting us out of Saudi Arabia. At the very

least, they want us -- and lsrael -- completely out of the entire region. But

it's not even the goals which are of prime concern, but rather the fanatical

hatred which gives every appearance of going to any length in waging holy war

against the "infidels". For you to call it worldwide jihad and then say it's

only for limited objectives isn't very reassuring, to say the least. l say

worldwide jihad is worldwide jihad -- that should be enough.

I'm not positing any karmic

or otherwise causal

connection between the two,

but rather noting the imo

obvious common thread of

self-righteousness, manifest

destiny, "end justifies the

means," and supposed divine

sanction.

Your common thread is thin indeed, if you say it runs between both

American and Europeans of earlier centuries and bin Laden and Al Queda

terrorists of today. l find it incredible that you truly believe it, Bruce.

Yes, l'm sure both shared traits of self-righteousness and the end justifies

the means. But you're drawing close parallel between flawed, ordinary people

who were trying to build a nation and cold blooded terrorists who exulted in

slitting the throats of stewardesses and killing thousands of innocent lives

in one swoop -- fanatics who couldn't wait to die under the delusion that

their actions were a surefire passport to heaven. Nineteenth Americans and

Europeans were wrong and flawed in many ways, but they weren't hate filled

sociopaths, as l think you know.

First you admit

that historical context

"doesn't justify what was done

here," then you provide what

amounts to a lengthy excuse

based on historical context.

What l tried to do was provide some of the historical context that l

said in an earlier post was absolutely necessary in order to judge what

happened. You are confusing excusing with understanding. l clearly said l

wasn't excusing it. The obvious point is that you have to understand it and

the historical context in order to see through the rediculous assertion that

19th century Americans and Europeans were comparable to bin Laden and Al

Queda.

The Islamicist fanaticism of

Bin Laden is largely a mirror

image reaction to five

centuries of Euro-American

cultural arrogance, which of

course "doesn't justify what

was done here" on 9/11/01,

for which there is no excuse

whatsoever regardless of

historical context.

Well, well, well .... it is nice to hear you say there was no excuse

for what happened on 9/11. But before you go on about 5 centuries of

Euro-American dominance, you might consider that the Turkish Ottoman empire

controlled and thoroughly dominated the entire Arab world for over three

centuries, until their defeat in World War One. And as far as bin Laden being

a mirror image reaction, every tyrant is expert at using half truths and

legitimate grievances in order to propagandize followers. Hitler couldn't

have become so powerful without Germany having legitimate grievances after

WW1.

jerry

>>

November 27, 2001

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:38:43 EST GCWein1111 writes:

> In a message dated 11/26/01 5:00:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> editor

> writes

>

> There was *far* more to the

> government-sponsored genocide

> than disease, although I'm

> sure that was a major factor.

>

> Not "A" major factor, Bruce. Disease was THE major factor -- BY

> FAR.

> Your use of the word genocide is entirely wrong, in that it refers

> to a

> systematic killing of a people. There was no program by the US

> government in

> the 1800s to kill off all the Native Americans. The program was, as

> you know,

> to take as much of the land as possible, and if Natives were there,

> too bad

> for them. And yes, they were subsequently persecuted culturally and

>

> spiritually as well. This was all bad enough, but it was not

> genocide. We've

> seen enough cases of true genocide in this century to know what it

> really is.

>

I'm not buying into your

very narrow definition of

"genocide," although I'm

sure it's legally the

correct one. I'm going by

the broader principal of

"by their fruits shall ye

know them," and the "fruits"

of nineteenth century

government (the aggregate

effect of federal, state, and

local) policies in the U.S.

meets my personal criterion

for genocide. The attempted

destruction of Native

American cultures very nearly

succeeded regardless of the

fact that total and

systematic extermination of

Native Americans did not

occur.

Of course, the terrorist

activities of Bin Laden et

al aren't strictly genocidal

either -- their stated aim is

the expulsion of non-Muslims

from the holy sites in

Arabia, a very specific goal

that has nothing to do with

destruction of western

culture or the extermination

of westerners. The

instigation of worldwide

jihad is just a means to

that end, assuming that the

public statements are honest.

> On that we disagree. There

> is a *huge* commonality that

> can be learned from, if we're

> not too offhandedly

> dismissive.

>

> Who's being dismissive? Not me. l've long felt deeply about

> what

> happened to Native Americans. l say it has nothing to do with what

> happened on Sept 11.

I'm not positing any karmic

or otherwise causal

connection between the two,

but rather noting the imo

obvious common thread of

self-righteousness, manifest

destiny, "end justifies the

means," and supposed divine

sanction.

> I think the malaise to which

> both historical facts point

> is very much the same: the

> dehumanization of ones

> perceived foe in the name of

> a deeply held belief in the

> unconditional righteousness

> of ones cause under the

> auspices of a "the end

> justifies the means" sort of

> mentality. Many nineteenth

> century Americans believed

> in the superiority of their

> way of life and its destiny

> to prevail by the grace of

> God, as do Bin Laden and

> those who follow and/or

> support him.

>

> Yes, out of both arrogance and ignorance 19th century Americans

> shamefully took from Native Americans. They were hardly alone. lt

> happened to

> the native inhabitants of Mexico, South America, Africa, Australia

> and other

> places at the hands of European powers. How many indigenous cultures

> have

> survived on this planet, Bruce? Not many. lt's a shame. But that's

> what the

> world was like in past centuries. That doesn't justify what was done

> here, but that's what the world was then.

That's what European (including

imo American) cultural

arrogance "was then" and, to a

lesser and subtler extent, is

now.

> There was no United Nations. There were

> no Human Rights committees. There was hardly what would now pass for

> civilization. You use fuzzy words like *commonality* and misuse the

> word

> *genocide* in trying to link what was done by people from a bygone

> era to the

> acts of fundamentalist, hate filled fanatics who have shown a desire

> to kill

> endllessly in order to achieve a goal of global warfare between

> lslam and

> the west. l find that a most unfortunate and untenable exercise.

>

Well, let's just say "tenable"

is very much in the eye of the

beholder. First you admit

that historical context

"doesn't justify what was done

here," then you provide what

amounts to a lengthy excuse

based on historical context.

The Islamicist fanaticism of

Bin Laden is largely a mirror

image reaction to five

centuries of Euro-American

cultural arrogance, which of

course "doesn't justify what

was done here" on 9/11/01,

for which there is no excuse

whatsoever regardless of

historical context.

> jerry

Much love -- Bruce

______________

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November 27, 2001

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:03:05 EST Hbarrett47 writes:

> In a message dated 11/27/01 10:22:49 AM Mountain Standard Time,

> editor writes:

>

> << The attempted

> destruction of Native

> American cultures very nearly

> succeeded regardless of the

> fact that total and

> systematic extermination of

> Native Americans did not

> occur. >>

>

> There was a deliberate plan to slaughter as many buffalo as possible

> to severely limit the Native American food supply.

I'm not sure that was the motive,

but it certainly had that effect!

> I'd call this genocide and something else, too. Holly

>

I hear you, Holly.

______________

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November 27, 2001

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:54:01 EST GCWein1111 writes:

> In a message dated 11/27/01 9:22:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> editor

> writes:

>

> I'm not buying into your

> very narrow definition of

> "genocide," although I'm

> sure it's legally the

> correct one. I'm going by

> the broader principal of

> "by their fruits shall ye

> know them," and the "fruits"

> of nineteenth century

> government (the aggregate

> effect of federal, state, and

> local) policies in the U.S.

> meets my personal criterion

> for genocide. The attempted

> destruction of Native

> American cultures very nearly

> succeeded regardless of the

> fact that total and

> systematic extermination of

> Native Americans did not

> occur.

>

> Ha ha ha .... come on now, Bruce. First you say my definition of

> genocide

> is narrow, then you admit it's the legally correct one and then say

> that

> you're inventing your own definition.

I'm just keeping you informed,

Jerry. If you're going to

play the Sadducee here I'm

going to stay on top of the

legalisms. :-)

> As l said, the vast majority of

> Native American deaths ( l believe the figure is about 90%) died

> from

> diseases that were unintentionally transmitted by European settlers.

> lf that

> hadn't happened, it's reasonable to suppose that Native Americans

> and their

> culture would've survived more intact. l don't disagree that the US

> trampled

> on and suppressed Native American culture (as occurred on a global

> basis) which was terribly wrong, but it wasn't genocide.

geno•cide \"je-n€-'sïd\ n : the deliberate and systematic destruction of

a racial, political, or cultural group

rights reserved.

I'd say that overall policy

regarding native tribes in

the nineteenth century comes

very to close to this rather

rigorous definition, ymmv.

>

> Of course, the terrorist

> activities of Bin Laden et

> al aren't strictly genocidal

> either -- their stated aim is

> the expulsion of non-Muslims

> from the holy sites in

> Arabia, a very specific goal

> that has nothing to do with

> destruction of western

> culture or the extermination

> of westerners. The

> instigation of worldwide

> jihad is just a means to

> that end, assuming that the

> public statements are honest.

>

> The goal of bin Laden is far more than expulsion of non-muslims

> from holy

> sites in the Saudia Arabia, according to most who have interviewed

> him. lt's said to be the instigation of all out war between lslam

> and the west.

Then he's a suicidal maniac

who doesn't mind taking his

Muslim brothers with him to

the grave. The west holds

virtually all the military

cards, as it has since the

demise of the Ottoman

Empire.

> His

> strong and broad appeal to true believers throughout the Muslim

> world is

> based on far more than simply getting us out of Saudi Arabia. At the

> very

> least, they want us -- and lsrael -- completely out of the entire

> region.

I'm sure he wouldn't mind,

but he's no friend of the

Palestinians -- he simply

uses their resentments to

swell his ranks and

coffers.

> But

> it's not even the goals which are of prime concern, but rather the

> fanatical

> hatred which gives every appearance of going to any length in waging

> holy war against the "infidels".

Sure, he's a fundamentalist

nutbag, no argument there!

> For you to call it worldwide jihad and then say it's

> only for limited objectives isn't very reassuring, to say the least.

I don't trust Bin Laden as

far as I could throw him.

However, I don't trust

Ashcroft et al either, and

that crew is a much more

insidious threat to this

country than a whole mosque

full of Bin Ladens.

> l say

> worldwide jihad is worldwide jihad -- that should be enough.

Enough for what, Jerry?

>

> I'm not positing any karmic

> or otherwise causal

> connection between the two,

> but rather noting the imo

> obvious common thread of

> self-righteousness, manifest

> destiny, "end justifies the

> means," and supposed divine

> sanction.

>

> Your common thread is thin indeed, if you say it runs between

> both

> American and Europeans of earlier centuries and bin Laden and Al

> Queda

> terrorists of today.

I called it a thread for a

reason, otherwise I could

have called in a rope or a

cable. :-)

That doesn't mean it isn't

important to look at what it

is in human nature that is

common to all the mentioned

activities.

> l find it incredible that you truly believe it, Bruce.

I think your passion on this

subject is blinding you to

some that's both obvious and

important to understand.

> Yes, l'm sure both shared traits of self-righteousness and the end

> justifies the means.

Good, agreement noted.

> But you're drawing close parallel between flawed, ordinary people

> who were trying to build a nation and cold blooded terrorists who

> exulted in slitting the throats of stewardesses and

Do we know that this occurred,

Jerry, or are you inferring it

for rhetorical purposes? The

cell phone reports from the

flights indicate that the

terrorists were polite and not

violent in their comportment.

They were in fact suicidal

mass murderers, but the above

doesn't coincide with the

scant evidence we have of the

actual events

> killing thousands of innocent lives

> in one swoop -- fanatics who couldn't wait to die under the

> delusion that their actions were a surefire passport to heaven.

We don't know the above for a

fact either. I suspect they

dealt with all the usual

human fears of death and

overcame them with the help

of conditioned religious

fanaticism. Once again, it

seems you are inferring to

support a passionately held

rhetorical stance.

> Nineteenth Americans and

> Europeans were wrong and flawed in many ways, but they weren't hate

> filled sociopaths, as l think you know.

They were a different breed of

wrongdoers, but that doesn't

excuse them for not seeing the

(imo) obvious moral shortcomings

in their nation-building (land

theft cum exploitation)

activities. The avowed fanatic

is an easily detected threat,

the "wrong and flawed" but

seemingly decent householder

supported by determined and

powerful government(s) is a far

subtler phenomenon that can be

every bit as murderous. "By

their fruits shall ye know

them."

>

> First you admit

> that historical context

> "doesn't justify what was done

> here," then you provide what

> amounts to a lengthy excuse

> based on historical context.

>

> What l tried to do was provide some of the historical

> context that l

> said in an earlier post was absolutely necessary in order to judge

> what happened. You are confusing excusing with understanding.

There is no judgement in any of

this, Jerry, we are simply

sharing observations on past

events.

> l clearly said l

> wasn't excusing it. The obvious point is that you have to understand

> it and

I agree, understanding is the

goal.

> the historical context in order to see through the rediculous

> assertion that

> 19th century Americans and Europeans were comparable to bin Laden

> and Al Queda.

I reitereate, they are not

directly comparable (e.g.

in the emotional intensity

and other particulars of

their activities). However,

I maintain there is

something important and

useful about human nature to

be learned from the common

thread between them,

something that is obscured

by willfully ignoring that

commonality.

>

> The Islamicist fanaticism of

> Bin Laden is largely a mirror

> image reaction to five

> centuries of Euro-American

> cultural arrogance, which of

> course "doesn't justify what

> was done here" on 9/11/01,

> for which there is no excuse

> whatsoever regardless of

> historical context.

>

> Well, well, well .... it is nice to hear you say there was

> no excuse for what happened on 9/11.

I'm glad you're pleased. :-)

> But before you go on about 5 centuries of

> Euro-American dominance, you might consider that the Turkish Ottoman

> empire

> controlled and thoroughly dominated the entire Arab world for over

> three centuries, until their defeat in World War One.

This is true, but the Ottoman

Turks were Muslims and

therefore not objectionable

per se to the fanatical Bin

Laden mindset. Bin Laden's

purported cause is religious,

not ethnic, and that is

supported by the fact that

Bin Laden's Taliban allies

are no more Arabs than the

Turks were.

> And as far as bin Laden being

> a mirror image reaction, every tyrant is expert at using half

> truths and

> legitimate grievances in order to propagandize followers. Hitler

> couldn't

> have become so powerful without Germany having legitimate grievances

> after WW1.

>

Absolutely right. I am not

here as an apologist for any

tyrant or fanatic, I am here

to advocate that we learn

something from the commonality

between the Bin Ladens and

Hitlers of the world and the

apparently decent Euro-Americans

of the nineteenth century

praries, mountains, and forests.

It's there and it's significant,

whether we choose to look at it

or not.

>

> jerry

> >>

>

Much love -- Bruce

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