Clarification on earlier post for Bruce

November 28, 2001

Dear Bruce,

Don't know if you've managed to get through my last post, but in

hindsight l feel at least one thing needs clarification. l mentioned feeling

irritated, resentful and at one point referred to bad manners and

insensitivity. l'm not going to try to explain or justify these statements

now -- only to say that l don't want this to be taken personally. You've been

very courteous, and although l'm coming from a much different place

personally and in my perspective, l owe you the same. Hope you haven't been

offended. jerry

November 30, 2001

Hi, Jerry --

You expended a lot of time and

energy on that long post and

it's clear something about (the

specialness or uniqueness of?)

9/11 is very important to you.

You weren't on-list back then,

but my sister came very close

to widowhood on that day and I

took it pretty hard myself.

I'm not going to refute you

point by point this time

around, but instead simply

reiterate that there is

something to be learned from

the commonality between

modern-day terrorism and what

went on back in the day

between Euro- and Native

Americans. Unlike the (imo)

obvious differences which you

have been emphasizing, the

commonality you mock is

something we as ordinary

human incarnates can act upon

when we notice something akin

to it occuring -- as a matter

of fact such in-the-moment

observation of an inveterate

human tendency *is* action.

It's very easy to see what

used to be called "Man's

inhumanity to Man" in some

blatantly murderous fanatic

from an alien culture, so

much harder to face it when

it arises in well-intentioned

folks like me and thee. With

Terence, I simply say "I am

human, nothing human is alien

to me." I know self-

righteousness first-hand, I

have sometimes felt that the

ends justify the means. at

times I even harbor a sense

that "God" is on "our" or "my"

side -- and in that moment of

clear observation I see my

all-too-human commonality with

the Joshuas, the Pilates, the

Constantines,the Crusaders, the

Inquisitors, the Custers, the

Hitlers, the Pol Pots, and the

Bin Ladens of the long human

story. I have experienced the

impulse to simply wipe our

good Earth clean of all that

threatens me and mine,

regardless of what that incurs

karmically for me, my species,

and my planet.

Krishnamurti often declared "I

am the world" and "You are the

world." Sri Walt Kelly noted

in "Pogo" that "We have met the

enemy and he is us!" That, my

friend, is what I point to when

I write of "commonality." As

tough is it might be to look

upon, we and Osama Bin Laden

are of the same flesh, and it

is perhaps only by accident(?)

of birth that you and I aren't

walking in his sandals -- or,

for that matter, being counted

among his victims -- instead

of exchanging words here.

There but for fortune go you or

I. None of us are are actually

"coming from very different

places" -- we're each and every

one of us here and now, because

that's all there really is and

that's all we can act upon.

Much love -- Bruce

On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:45:34 EST GCWein1111 writes:

>

> Dear Bruce,

>

> Don't know if you've managed to get through my last post, but in

>

> hindsight l feel at least one thing needs clarification. l mentioned

> feeling

> irritated, resentful and at one point referred to bad manners and

> insensitivity. l'm not going to try to explain or justify these

> statements

> now -- only to say that l don't want this to be taken personally.

> You've been

> very courteous, and although l'm coming from a much different place

> personally and in my perspective, l owe you the same. Hope you

> haven't been offended. jerry

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November 30, 2001

In a message dated 11/30/01 5:32:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, editor

writes:

<<

You expended a lot of time and

energy on that long post and

it's clear something about (the

specialness or uniqueness of?)

9/11 is very important to you.

You weren't on-list back then,

but my sister came very close

to widowhood on that day ...

Yes, Bruce ... and you have expended alot of time and energy on your

posts too. The events and implications of 9/11 appear to represent a

watershed in world history and ARE very important to me, to many foreign

governments (in addition to our own) and to others, for the reasons l

articulated in my last post.

Are they to you? lt doesn't

appear so to me, because you've rather oddly chosen this moment as a time to

belittle the present crisis by attempting to compare it unfavorably to the

Native American experience. ln doing so, you've chosen to cast the Native

American experience in the worst light possible, badly stretching the term

genocide and ignoring any historical perspective, while at the same time

referring to terrorists as having only limited objectives -- minimizing the

fanatical degree of hatred they display and their clear willingness to commit

any act, including the use of weapons of mass destruction. To me, your

attitude is much more curious than my own.

I'm not going to refute you

point by point this time

around, but instead simply

reiterate that there is

something to be learned from

the commonality between

modern-day terrorism and what

went on back in the day

between Euro- and Native

Americans. Unlike the (imo)

obvious differences which you

have been emphasizing, the

commonality you mock is

something we as ordinary

human incarnates can act upon

when we notice something akin

to it occuring -- as a matter

of fact such in-the-moment

observation of an inveterate

human tendency *is* action.

l'm not mocking commonality per se but rather your usage of it.

Commonality as a concept is like anything else: it can be used to inform us

or it can be used to lead us astray, depending on when and how it's applied.

The timing and manner in which you've brought up the Native American

experience suggested to me that your purpose was not to inform.

It's very easy to see what

used to be called "Man's

inhumanity to Man" in some

blatantly murderous fanatic

from an alien culture, so

much harder to face it when

it arises in well-intentioned

folks like me and thee. With

Terence, I simply say "I am

human, nothing human is alien

to me." I know self-

righteousness first-hand, I

have sometimes felt that the

ends justify the means. at

times I even harbor a sense

that "God" is on "our" or "my"

side -- and in that moment of

clear observation I see my

all-too-human commonality with

the Joshuas, the Pilates, the

Constantines,the Crusaders, the

Inquisitors, the Custers, the

Hitlers, the Pol Pots, and the

Bin Ladens of the long human

story. I have experienced the

impulse to simply wipe our

good Earth clean of all that

threatens me and mine,

regardless of what that incurs

karmically for me, my species,

and my planet.

And l say it is one thing to acknowledge that inhuman acts can flow from

people like thee and me, quite another to therefore indiscriminately lump me

and thee together with the bin Ladens and Hitlers. Of course there are

murderous urges and impulses among pretty much all of us. But the

difference between having a murderous thought or impulse and conducting a

long term, wholesale campaign of terrorism on a mass scale is huge.

Krishnamurti often declared "I

am the world" and "You are the

world." Sri Walt Kelly noted

in "Pogo" that "We have met the

enemy and he is us!" That, my

friend, is what I point to when

I write of "commonality." As

tough is it might be to look

upon, we and Osama Bin Laden

are of the same flesh, and it

is perhaps only by accident(?)

of birth that you and I aren't

walking in his sandals -- or,

for that matter, being counted

among his victims -- instead

of exchanging words here.

There but for fortune go you or

I. None of us are are actually

"coming from very different

places" -- we're each and every

one of us here and now, because

that's all there really is and

that's all we can act upon.

Bruce, the more l hear you talk about commonality the more l think you

need to find a new mantra, ha ha. Bin Laden and us of the same flesh? Okay,

whatever that means. But then to say that bin Laden and l (or you) are not

actually coming from very different places? You referred to him in a

previous post as a fundamentalist nutbag, which he is, in addition to being a

murderous sociopath. ls that where you're "coming from" too? Not me.

Why did bin Laden become a

sociopathic nutbag? There's obviously no way to answer that -- it could

involve karma from past lives or any number of things we can't know about,

but the statement that but for fortune or accident of birth any of us could

be bin Laden sounds, uh ....reeaall questionable to me. There is only one bin

Laden (although many followers), and l think we can trust it didn't happen by

accident of birth or by some arbitrary fortune.

l suspect that a very big reason why we're able to "exchange words

here" is because of the efforts and sacrifices of policemen, firemen,

servicemen and ordinary people who never heard of Krishnamurti but who had

simple faith, dedication to duty and common sense -- something l trust more

than spiritual axioms.

jerrysan

rinpoche

>>

November 30, 2001

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:51:03 EST GCWein1111 writes:

> In a message dated 11/30/01 5:32:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> editor

> writes:

>

> <<

>

> You expended a lot of time and

> energy on that long post and

> it's clear something about (the

> specialness or uniqueness of?)

> 9/11 is very important to you.

> You weren't on-list back then,

> but my sister came very close

> to widowhood on that day ...

>

> Yes, Bruce ... and you have expended alot of time and energy

> on your posts too.

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

>The events and implications of 9/11 appear to represent

> a watershed in world history

Really? Why, because this

country has been pretty much

immune to events of similar

scale (if not swiftness and

technological means) that

have been happening for

centuries in Europe, Asia,

and Africa? 9/11 may well

encompass a new bottle, but

it is *very* old wine!

> and ARE very important to me, to many foreign

> governments (in addition to our own) and to others, for the reasons

> l articulated in my last post.

>

True enough. By all means,

let us "Render unto Caesar."

> Are they to you?

Of course they are, pardon

me if I don't emphasize the

already expounded-into-the-

ground obvious!

> lt doesn't appear so to me,

Well, thanks for sharing how

it appears to you.

> because you've rather oddly chosen this moment as a time to

> belittle the present crisis by attempting to compare it unfavorably

> to the Native American experience.

In terms of the number of

lives directly affected and

its detrimental effect on

the culture under attack,

"the Native American

experience" dwarfs 9/11.

Period. Obviously, in

terms of swiftness and

utter shock, 9/11 *was*

quite unique, but in terms

scale and ultimate effect,

it was pretty much business

as usual for this species

and planet over the past

few centuries.

> ln doing so, you've chosen to cast the Native

> American experience in the worst light possible, badly stretching

> the term genocide and ignoring any historical perspective,

Not true at all.

> while at the same

> time referring to terrorists as having only limited objectives --

I qualified that very carefully,

Jerry, noting that those were

the *stated* objectives and that

I did not trust the statements

or the stater(s).

> minimizing the

> fanatical degree of hatred they display and their clear willingness

> to commit

> any act, including the use of weapons of mass destruction. To me,

> your attitude is much more curious than my own.

OK, opinion noted.

>

> I'm not going to refute you

> point by point this time

> around, but instead simply

> reiterate that there is

> something to be learned from

> the commonality between

> modern-day terrorism and what

> went on back in the day

> between Euro- and Native

> Americans. Unlike the (imo)

> obvious differences which you

> have been emphasizing, the

> commonality you mock is

> something we as ordinary

> human incarnates can act upon

> when we notice something akin

> to it occuring -- as a matter

> of fact such in-the-moment

> observation of an inveterate

> human tendency *is* action.

>

> l'm not mocking commonality per se but rather your usage of it.

Thanks for the clarification.

>

> Commonality as a concept is like anything else: it can be used to

> inform us

> or it can be used to lead us astray, depending on when and how it's

> applied.

> The timing and manner in which you've brought up the Native American

> experience suggested to me that your purpose was not to inform.

>

The suggestion you've inferred

here is incorrect.

>

> It's very easy to see what

> used to be called "Man's

> inhumanity to Man" in some

> blatantly murderous fanatic

> from an alien culture, so

> much harder to face it when

> it arises in well-intentioned

> folks like me and thee. With

> Terence, I simply say "I am

> human, nothing human is alien

> to me." I know self-

> righteousness first-hand, I

> have sometimes felt that the

> ends justify the means. at

> times I even harbor a sense

> that "God" is on "our" or "my"

> side -- and in that moment of

> clear observation I see my

> all-too-human commonality with

> the Joshuas, the Pilates, the

> Constantines,the Crusaders, the

> Inquisitors, the Custers, the

> Hitlers, the Pol Pots, and the

> Bin Ladens of the long human

> story. I have experienced the

> impulse to simply wipe our

> good Earth clean of all that

> threatens me and mine,

> regardless of what that incurs

> karmically for me, my species,

> and my planet.

>

> And l say it is one thing to acknowledge that inhuman acts can flow

> from

> people like thee and me, quite another to therefore indiscriminately

> lump me and thee together with the bin Ladens and Hitlers.

The human genome includes the

potential to be a bin Laden

or a Hitler, albeit usually

on a far smaller scale -- me

and thee included.

> Of course there are

> murderous urges and impulses among pretty much all of us.

....and then there are the

attitudes and emotions that

underlie such "urges and

impulses" and are acted out

every day in less obviously

and overtly destructive

ways.

>

> But the difference between having a murderous thought or impulse and

> conducting a

> long term, wholesale campaign of terrorism on a mass scale is huge.

>

....and obvious, so why bother

expounding at length about it?

>

> Krishnamurti often declared "I

> am the world" and "You are the

> world." Sri Walt Kelly noted

> in "Pogo" that "We have met the

> enemy and he is us!" That, my

> friend, is what I point to when

> I write of "commonality." As

> tough is it might be to look

> upon, we and Osama Bin Laden

> are of the same flesh, and it

> is perhaps only by accident(?)

> of birth that you and I aren't

> walking in his sandals -- or,

> for that matter, being counted

> among his victims -- instead

> of exchanging words here.

>

> There but for fortune go you or

> I. None of us are are actually

> "coming from very different

> places" -- we're each and every

> one of us here and now, because

> that's all there really is and

> that's all we can act upon.

>

> Bruce, the more l hear you talk about commonality the more l

> think you need to find a new mantra, ha ha.

Implied suggestion noted,

thanks. :-)

> Bin Laden and us of the same flesh? Okay,

> whatever that means.

It means we are all human, with

all that implies -- including

the potential for atrocity.

> But then to say that bin Laden and l (or you) are not

> actually coming from very different places? You referred to him in

> a previous post as a fundamentalist nutbag, which he is, in addition

> to being a

> murderous sociopath. ls that where you're "coming from" too? Not me.

>

We all carry with us the

potential for "nutbag" behavior,

murder, sociopathy. Most of us

do not get to the point of

"coming from" such acts, but it

wouldn't take much of a change

in circumstances -- upbringing,

a slight genetic twist, an

accidental meeting with a

charismatic influence -- for

that potential to manifest.

Dealing with the bin Laden at

large in the world is something

we can pay and thank others to

do, dealing with the bin Laden

in each of us is something we

must do alone.

>

> Why did bin Laden

> become a

> sociopathic nutbag? There's obviously no way to answer that -- it

> could

> involve karma from past lives or any number of things we can't know

> about,

> but the statement that but for fortune or accident of birth any of

> us could be bin Laden sounds, uh ....reeaall questionable to me.

You're nitpicking, Jerry. If

you don't face down that inner

bin Laden, it's more likely to

bite you in the ass when you

least expect it (no, I don't

mean you personally). The one

who believes himself so

different that s/he's immune

is the most vulnerable. What

is "karma from past lives or

any number of things" but an

accident of birth, at least as

far as we can tell? Do you

think bin Laden chose his

genome, his upbringing, his

religion? As far as can be

seen, all these were beyond

his control!

> There is only one bin

> Laden

Psychologically, he is *legion*.

> (although many followers), and l think we can trust it didn't

> happen by accident of birth or by some arbitrary fortune.

>

I don't "think we can trust"

any such thing!

>

> l suspect that a very big reason why we're able to "exchange

> words

> here" is because of the efforts and sacrifices of policemen,

> firemen,

> servicemen and ordinary people who never heard of Krishnamurti but

> who had

> simple faith, dedication to duty and common sense -- something l

> trust more than spiritual axioms.

>

I think those folks have gotten

more than their due at this

point. They signed on for a

dangerous job, did it under

extraordinary circumstances,

and hundreds of their families

paid the price. My heart goes

out to the thousands of people

whose families paid a price

that wasn't implicit in their

loved ones' terms of employment.

I don't see any conflict

between appreciating

"dedication to duty and common

sense" and facing that within

us that, if made manifest by

will or fate, is atrocity.

>

> jerrysan

> rinpoche

>

Much love -- Bruce

http://come.to/realization

http://www.atman.net/realization

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

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December 2, 2001

In a message dated 11/30/01 6:18:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, editor

writes

>The events and implications of 9/11 appear to represent

> a watershed in world history

Really? Why, because this

country has been pretty much

immune to events of similar

scale (if not swiftness and

technological means) that

have been happening for

centuries in Europe, Asia,

and Africa? 9/11 may well

encompass a new bottle, but

it is *very* old wine!

lt's too early to be certain of just how great the impact of 9/11 will be

-- it may not turn out to be as great as has appeared at times -- but simply

calling it old wine in a new bottle? Yes, of course, if you choose to look at

it as simply one more slaughter -- they're hardly new on this planet. But it

was an act of terrorism unlike any that proceeded it, and if one considers

only the marked change it's having on global relationships (our relationship

with Russia and other countries throughout the Muslim world), it's having

started a war which will almost certainly not stop with Afghanistan, its

considerable effect in the way both the US and other countries are

approaching terrorism ....Yes, l think it's a watershed event with obvious

global repercussions, the extent to which we don't yet know.

> and ARE very important to me, to many foreign

> governments (in addition to our own) and to others, for the reasons

> l articulated in my last post.

>

True enough. By all means,

let us "Render unto Caesar."

Render unto Caesar?? Why Bruce, aren't we being just a bit cynical here?

> Are they to you?

Of course they are, pardon

me if I don't emphasize the

already expounded-into-the-

ground obvious!

Hmmm ... yes, the points favorable to the US (the ones you don't like to

acknowledge) are the OBVIOUS ones -- of course,you only emphasize the more

subtle points, except that .....

In terms of the number of

lives directly affected and

its detrimental effect on

the culture under attack,

"the Native American

experience" dwarfs 9/11.

Period. Obviously, in

terms of swiftness and

utter shock, 9/11 *was*

quite unique, but in terms

scale and ultimate effect,

it was pretty much business

as usual for this species

and planet over the past

few centuries.

Yes, what could be more OBVIOUS than the fact that the Native American

tragedy, which occurred over a period exceeding a century, does indeed dwarf

what happened on a single day? lt was so OBVIOUS, Bruce, that one can only

wonder why you harped on it in the first place? Why bother, given how much

disdain you have for the OBVIOUS?

The human genome includes the

potential to be a bin Laden

or a Hitler, albeit usually

on a far smaller scale -- me

and thee included.

Uh, ..... emphasizing the words FAR SMALLER

,

We all carry with us the

potential for "nutbag" behavior,

murder, sociopathy. Most of us

do not get to the point of

"coming from" such acts, but it

wouldn't take much of a change

in circumstances -- upbringing,

a slight genetic twist, an

accidental meeting with a

charismatic influence -- for

that potential to manifest.

Dealing with the bin Laden at

large in the world is something

we can pay and thank others to

do, dealing with the bin Laden

in each of us is something we

must do alone.

Bruce, first of all, our disagreement from the beginning has NOT been over

how bin Laden got to be bin Laden. Our disagreement was over comparing acts

committed by bin Laden to acts committed by early Americans, taking bin Laden

AS HE IS. Beyond that, your discussion of how bin Laden got to be bin Laden

and what separates him from the rest of us appears sloppy and misguided. Your

statement that we are all inchoate bin Ladens, needing only to be triggered

by a small change in circumstance, an accidental meeting with a charismatic

figure, is plain wrong. To state that a murderous sociopath is created so

easily is a gross distortion. With that you lump together a "slight genetic

twist" as another cause. Well, sure, we're all only a couple genomes away

from being chimpanzees ....

You're nitpicking, Jerry. If

you don't face down that inner

bin Laden, it's more likely to

bite you in the ass when you

least expect it (no, I don't

mean you personally). The one

who believes himself so

different that s/he's immune

is the most vulnerable.

Ah yes, lt is most generous of you, Bruce, to make a departure from our

debate in order to pursue a higher purpose, to save me from becoming a bin

Laden MYSELF!!! No doubt you're right, since l believe myself so different

from bin Laden l'm uniquely vulnerable. This is such a timely warning on your

part, because as l was standing before a mirror last night l noticed my

features beginning to change: a beard starting to grow, a turban starting to

sprout from my crown -- sure enough, my Dr Jeckyl facade was crumbling and Mr

Hyde began to take over! Well, actually, that turned out to be a nightmare.

l awoke to find that l was still the same mediocrity who's managed to live 50

plus years in peace with my neighbors, rarely straying far from my garden.

Guess you're right: the profile of a terrorist.

Much love -- Bruce >>

Much Balance and Reason,

jerrysan rinpoche

December 3, 2001

In a message dated 12/3/01 10:09:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, editor

writes:

<<

Thanks for the private e-mail,

Jerry, I think at this point

we can put this issue to rest

-- we really agree much more

than we disagree, although at

times that hasn't been very

apparent.

Sign In

Clarification on earlier post for Bruce

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