Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 Dear Harshaji, regarding this topic of drugs let me just add that on the Kriya path the devotee is advised to avoid even light stimulants such as coffee or black tea (not to speak of alcohol and other stuff). Since as a student I used to love Chai a lot, giving it up was a small sacrifice for me... :-) But the reward for this and other little renunciations lies in a comparatively smooth sailing. Keeping the mind steady, slowing down the breath, stilling the heartbeat, as well as other things that are concomitant to Kriya, all are facilitated in this way. And I fully agree with what you mentioned in your other post about the importance of progressing gradually, gradually, like your teacher said. One cannot force a flower to bloom immediately. Warmly, Michael -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: Harsha [harsha-hkl] Gesendet: Sunday, December 09, 2001 22:09 An: Betreff: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs/Was Reincarnation Dearest brother Michael, I have heard that some people like Ramdas (Timothy Leary?) who experimented with mind altering drugs and experienced different states became interested in the nature of consciousness and spirituality. There are such examples. However, what you say is correct. A person who already knows the deepest truth will not be attracted to drugs and alcohol to change his state of awareness, as there would be nothing to change. If we go one step further Mike, a Self-Realized person may even lose interest in various methods and techniques of meditation and yoga (although losing of such interest is not necessary at all). It is an esoteric, rarely known, but an experiential truth that "Nirvikalpa Samadhi" of Raja Yoga (including Kundalini and Kriya Yogas) has a different meaning than that of Nirvikalpa Samadhi in Jnana Yoga. The first takes place with the merging of Shakti at the Sahasarara. The second takes places when the Shakti after having first reached the Sahasarara makes its way down a frontal path called Amrita Nadi and merges into the Spiritual Heart. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, the breath is literally taken or sucked away as the lungs become completely empty and the heart may stop temporarily. However, even in Savikalpa Samadhi the breath appears to stop but actually goes on at a subtle level and the heart continues to beat. Kevala Kumbhaka (restraint of breath) can also be produced through practice of higher level pranayama. The third Nirvikalpa is beyond description and is called Sahaj. The natural state. Here, nothing rises, sets, or merges. Love to all Harsha MikeSuesserott [MikeSuesserott] Sunday, December 09, 2001 3:35 PM Reincarnation (was: God Bless America) Dear Jan, are you seriously suggesting that these musicians were in samadhi, and that coming out of this experience was inducing them to take drugs? Jan, I am just a little devotee, but having felt even a tiny amount of the love of God in meditation I can tell you truthfully that coming out of that state one doesn't feel the least bit frustrated. Rather, the heart sings with joy as one goes about ones daily duties. How much more would this be true for those who have reached even the lower states of samadhi, where heart and breath stop completely and the yogi is locked in the blissful union with the Divine. It is true that sometimes people go after fake joys like drugs and wine out of frustration with this dreary earthly existence, and we can sympathize with them, and should try to help them as best we can. But their state is as different from samadhi as night and day. Warmly, Michael /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: [snip] > And I fully agree with what you mentioned in your other post about the > importance of progressing gradually, gradually, like your teacher said. One > cannot force a flower to bloom immediately. However, the process of blooming has nothing to do with the result of realization. That is, while there appears to be a connection between spiritual practice and realization, those that have come to know realization find that the correlation between the practice and the result is only apparent. When one comes to realization, one sees right away that realization was always present in every moment, despite the fact that it wasn't recognized as such. My point is that if you make realization a process, or the result of a particular approach, you will have a hard time finding it as it is neither of these. I personally know of a number of individuals who have come to their realization in the context of a life that included the exploratory use of entheogens. This doesn't mean that the entheogens brought about the realization, just that realization wasn't necessarily hindered by the use of entheogens in these cases. Some like smooth sailing and some like the challenge of rough seas. Either way, realization exists in the lives of both and can come to be recognized in each case just as readily as the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 Dear Bruce, on rereading Jody's post I see that you are quite right. If kindly disposed, you may attribute this to the fact that it is 2:30am. here. I will try a better reply tomorrow. My apologies to Jody. Michael -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: Bruce Morgen [editor] Gesendet: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 01:15 An: Betreff: Re: AW: Re: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs/Was Reincarnation Mike, you have not digested the gist of what Jodyji is saying here. Try responding to what he actually wrote instead of what you've inferred from it based on your own -- and apparently very deeply held -- beliefs on the subject. When one is quite intent on promulgating ones own viewpoint, true dialogue is precluded. On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 02:06:39 +0100 MikeSuesserott writes: > Hi Jody, > > entheogens... Is this the current euphemism for drugs? I didn't know > that > word, but I can sure see its marketing value. :-) > > Jody, "realization" means different things to different people. If > you think > that the type of "realization" that comes through the use of these > substances is what you want, this is your decision. As human beings > we have > the right to choose, and must then live with the results of our > choices. As you are saying, these may include some rough seas. > > Warmly, > > Michael > > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: jodyrrr [jodyrrr] > Gesendet: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 01:11 > An: > Betreff: Re: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs/Was Reincarnation > > > , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: > > [snip] > > > And I fully agree with what you mentioned in your other post about > the > > importance of progressing gradually, gradually, like your teacher > said. > One > > cannot force a flower to bloom immediately. > > However, the process of blooming has nothing to do with the result > of realization. That is, while there appears to be a connection > between spiritual practice and realization, those that have come > to know realization find that the correlation between the practice > and the result is only apparent. When one comes to realization, > one sees right away that realization was always present in every > moment, despite the fact that it wasn't recognized as such. > > My point is that if you make realization a process, or the result > of a particular approach, you will have a hard time finding it as > it is neither of these. > > I personally know of a number of individuals who have come to their > realization in the context of a life that included the exploratory > use of entheogens. This doesn't mean that the entheogens brought > about the realization, just that realization wasn't necessarily > hindered by the use of entheogens in these cases. > > Some like smooth sailing and some like the challenge of rough seas. > Either way, realization exists in the lives of both and can come > to be recognized in each case just as readily as the other. > http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: > Hi Jody, > > entheogens... Is this the current euphemism for drugs? I didn't know that > word, but I can sure see its marketing value. :-) Entheogen means "God-inducing", and while not the cause of realization, they can certainly have some value as transformational catalysts. > Jody, "realization" means different things to different people. If you think > that the type of "realization" that comes through the use of these > substances is what you want, this is your decision. Reread my post Michael. I haven't decided anything about realization. I have observed that people can come to moksha (or liberation, or jnana) in the context of a life that includes some drug use. More often than not the substances of choice are those known as entheogens. > As human beings we have > the right to choose, and must then live with the results of our choices. As > you are saying, these may include some rough seas. > > Warmly, > > Michael If you aren't hitting some rough seas now and again, you probably aren't getting anywhere. This isn't to say drugs are necessary. However, transformation is rarely easy. Gradual transformation over time is the rare exception rather than the rule. Just ask anyone who is realized. Whether or not they used drugs, they very probably have experienced some very rough seas in the context of their lives, and they'd probably agree that these experiences were among the most profound as agents of transformation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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