Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs)

December 15, 2001

Can't you see, he's doing it even now? And so are you! But then, maybe you're

talking about a very large entity, like the master watchmaker of the universe.

Such entities have been posited many times. But what is behind and before them?

That's what I'm referring to above...

--Greg

At 12:01 AM 12/16/01 +0100, MikeSuesserott wrote:

>Hi Dan,

>

>> > Jesus said, "I and my Father are one"

>> O.K.

>> And, what keeps such "satisfaction" from being "now"?

>> What would make such a statement untruthful?

>

>Well, Dan, if you can *truthfully* say this, and by this I mean, not just

>parroting something from the scriptures, but being one with the reality of

>it to the fullest, you might do me a few insignificant favors:

>

> create a universe (a small one like ours would do)

> create a grain of wheat

> create man and woman

December 15, 2001

, MikeSuesserott@t... wrote:

> you have been able to create words only. No new species has

> emerged. :-)Creating words is not the same as realization,

> unfortunately.

Dear Michael,

I can turn water into ice and bread into toast.

I can even walk on water(in winter time).

I'm almost certain this won't qualify me for sainthood

but I mustn't be too far.

David

(ordinary)

December 16, 2001

Dear Michael,

Unless I totally and fully misunderstand, I am afraid that you might be a

bit on the wrong track, kind of a dead end road really... :-)

This world here right now is the miracle, and so are you...

Every minute cross section of space in time is a creative instance,

happening right now in you and around you, within and without you.

You reading this, is 'in your mind' probably only a play on and with words,

just empty verbology, while you may actually not be observant of the fact

that this whole 'constellation' of yours, all that YOU ARE at this moment,

is being created from pure energy (E) into individuated particles (M) of a

myriad of varying sizes, particles which are dancing together while giving

you a sense of Michael-ness, while creating time (c.c) on the side as a kind

of by-product or side-effect... ... ... All that unbeknownst to you, because

you are trying to catch someone on his words...

You wrote:

>>>> create a universe (a small one like ours would do)

create a grain of wheat

create man and woman

for the third task, you might think of a new species, the old one having

sort of worn out by now.<<<<

I wonder, if you could even see somebody creating a grain of sand, when you

do not even realize that the tiniest granule of your presence is being

created by you, through you and in you, right this instant and...

scientifically that is proven... That you just cannot see that, is because

seem to prefer to be a bit despondent...

Hey, Mike, I am not joking..., why are you even bringing up the idea of a

"new species..." You are not doing too well with appreciating this one, look

at what you just said: "you might think of a new species, the old one having

sort of worn out by now."

You have just shown us the destructive, albeit illusive power, of attempting

to finish off a whole species through some personal self limiting judgement.

How can you even expect to see creation when you are in a mode of

despondency, playing down the current species of billions of people...

I am part of this species, and I won't let you talk me down into believing

that I, as a representative of this species am "worn out sort of."

I tell you, I am not...

So, I hope that you did not pretend that you spoke for me!

Were you per chance generalizing a bit much?

By YOU saying that the old species is "worn out sort of," you have actually

curtailed your own ability to rejuvenate your own species, beginning with

yourself.

Why don't you just re-create yourself a bit, before you start telling others

about the limitations to the wonder of creation and creativity.

But Mike, disregard all I wrote, if I understood you wrongly, maybe you

actually tried to talk Dan into the realization that we are dynamically

real, rather than just a rehash of words that have lost their creative

command...

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God...." maybe that is what

you wanted to tell Dan, but I did not catch your meaning...

Love, Mike and Dan, Wim

(-: There is more serious jest in this message than might be evident:-)

MikeSuesserott [MikeSuesserott]

Saturday, December 15, 2001 3:39 PM

Re: Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs)

Dear Dan,

see, you have been able to create words only. No new species has emerged.

:-)Creating words is not the same as realization, unfortunately.

Michael

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----

> Von: dan330033 [dan330033]

> Gesendet: Sunday, December 16, 2001 00:18

> An:

> Betreff: Re: Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs)

>

> Hi Michael,

>

> > > > Jesus said, "I and my Father are one"

> > > O.K.

> > > And, what keeps such "satisfaction" from being "now"?

> > > What would make such a statement untruthful?

> >

> > Well, Dan, if you can *truthfully* say this, and by this I mean, not

> just

> > parroting something from the scriptures, but being one with the

> reality of

> > it to the fullest, you might do me a few insignificant favors:

> >

> > create a universe (a small one like ours would do)

>

> Here it is.

>

> > create a grain of wheat

>

> There it is.

>

> > create man and woman

>

> Here they are.

>

> > for the third task, you might think of a new species, the old one

> having

> > sort of worn out by now.

>

> :-)

>

> It's "one with the Father/Mother", not

> "separate from, and doing things in a new

> and different way from the Father/Mother."

>

> > Understand what I am trying to say? :-)

>

> Yes, you're saying that being

> one with the Father/Mother means being

> an "I" who can make the universe

> according to what "I" wants.

>

> And I'm saying, with no one apart to make

> things be the way he or she wants,

> unicity is "now" the reality.

>

> "Not 'my' will, but Thy will be done" ...

>

> "In this day, YHVH is ONE, and the Will

> of YHVH is ONE"

>

> Be well,

> Dan

>

---

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December 16, 2001

Hello, my dear Mike,

(mikeSuesserott)

You wrote to Jody on Dec 12, 2001 re: realization...

>>> (snips...) Is it acquiring some jargon? Is it affirming the dream nature

and denying

the reality of the world? Is it seeing some lights, feeling some kundalini

currents and shaktis, hearing some sounds? Is it having access to the other

world? Is it being able to shut off the senses, or predicting the future?

No, none of these make a person a realized being. That state of full

realization is far, far beyond these things.

Not that I would know this from my own experience, <<<

Then, with all due respect and while appreciating your post, what are you

saying? If it is not from your own experience... it is kind of useless, is

it not?

Well, the neat thing is that I know from experience, neat eh!? :-)

>>>...but we can read the list

of attributes of a realized being in Patanjali and also in the Gita. These

attributes encompass omnipresence and omnipotence, as well as other powers

that are part of the natural state of a realized being. Yoganandaji said

that just as a normal human being knows and feels when his body is being

touched, in the same way a realized person knows and feels, as if in his own

body, everything that is going on in all of the universes in all the three

worlds in all creation. Can you ***conceive*** it?<<

Actually, Mike, if you would have asserted, "You CAN PERCEIVE it" instead

asking "Can you conceive it?" you would have put Jodi and yourself on the

right track.

The following is an extended version of what I wrote to one of my

correspondents who forwarded me your post.

-------------

(And, by the way I speak from experience...)

-------------

Siddhas are 'enlightened' beings with additional actualising or creative

siddhis (gifts or powers, sometimes seen as wondrous or miraculous). These

gifts make them 'realized' and 'realizing' beings. The need to display those

gifts depends on their playful and joyous functionality and functional

playfulness to bring joy.

------------

How to tell realization or enlightenment by its signs!

About the distinction between 'devotees', 'enlightened' and 'realized'

beings!

The upcoming definitions of devotees, enlightened and realized beings should

be seen in the following light:

The perceived progression in signs, characteristics or marks of dynamic

perfection in a human being, from 'devotee' via 'enlightened being' to

'realized being', is only a matter of self re-discovery and self

re-cognition within every human being. This perceived progression is a

representation only and no more than a manifestation in time, of the return

to one's original human/divine self and being. (What one was supposed to

have been, if something would not have gone 'hay-wire' from the moment of

birth and/or subsequently in life. The progression from devotee to realized

being is really only a matter of recovery of one's original state of dynamic

perfection.

Keeping that in mind, and for the sake of elucidation only in order to

recognize 'perceived' stages of progress, I distinguish between devotees,

enlightened and realized beings as follows.

.. Devotees beings, FOLLOW and BASK so to say, in the divine light and

inspiration of enlightened or realized beings through faith, devotion,

piety, diligence, right action, responsibility, duty and the collection of

merit. Pure and perfected devotees may be seen as the end result of Hinayana

Buddhism.

.. Enlightened beings have, so to say, SEEN the divine light and RECEIVED it

as insight, understanding, knowledge and wisdom. Pure and perfected

enlightened beings may be seen as the end result of the Mahayana Buddhism.

.. Realized beings have, so to say, BONDED with and have ABSORBED divine

light and are able to work with it as energy, making the divine light also

available and perceivable to other fellow humans. Pure and perfected

realized beings may be seen as the end result of Vajrayana Buddhism.

----------------

About powers and gifts.

Those gifts or wondrous powers of the Siddhas are signs of a functional and

dynamic realization which works hand in hand with their compassionate

involvement with fellow human beings. The nature of these gifts depends on

the realized being's function in time and space as Bodhisattva, and his or

her FREE and playful acceptance of his or her predilection, with free divine

will and clarity of the mind of light. (Not my will, but thine...)

Those wondrous powers or gifts that Siddhas may or may not display, are

nothing more than signs of realization. (Realization meaning: "Actually

making ideas real and tangible, realizing them. Realization is not a mental

thing, as in, "I realize that" but a transformative thing, as in E = M.c.c)

Realized beings do not need those gifts, but the gifts come automatically

and free with the performance of 'duty' or 'god's will'. This

'duty-and-will' (tapas) is self-created-and-accepted in a playful manner.

Siddhas do not need to display them. But sometimes, in their creative play,

the manifestation of those gifts slip through and get noticed.

It is quite an embarrassing thing when that happens..., a heavenly form of

'being caught with one's pants down'. :-)))

--------------

Dear XXXX, I am one of those Siddhas, and there are plenty more like me. You

and some people in Connecticut have attested to that, not that I needed

that, but in my playfulness some of that stuff slipped by...

But, as you know, I remain as normal as I can, keeping my childlike play

going, remaining Krishna dancing.

XXXX, play life as child's play. Life is not to be a strategic game of chess

with rules and regulations, the manipulations pawns and victims by 'losers

posing as winners'.

Playing becomes easier after one has addressed the issue of trauma and

frustration with the people who stopped or hampered your play. That is why

anger can be freeing... when the pent up spasms in the muscles and blocked

pulses in the nerves get released... best thing is to work that anger out on

inanimate objects... not necessarily the people who deserved your anger

unless... they have discovered compassion... and have understood your anger.

-----------------

A bit more about those gifts...

"The siddhi of owning a red car"

Someone with a red car is not a better human, but someone with a red car

might just come in handy, because the CAR might come in handy if that

someone has to go somewhere to visit or if that someone wants to carry

someone along.

The car, like a gift or power (siddhi) is just a vehicle to help people

along. In principle only the human beings count, but life and its

accoutrement allows humans to use a car...

It is not important what colour the car is, although choosing the right

colour maybe part of the function to attract people to get into the car.

________

XXXX wrote:

> good morning dear Wim,

>

> I have no energy or desire to even get into a debate on all these

> things Michael just posted on Harsha's list... For shoot, my own

> experience cannot even back up or accurately discuss this topic....

>

> Yet, I am convinced that a realized being does not necessary perform

> any of these things to be realized... I dont claim to be realized.

> Heck we both know I still have a ways to go to get rid of all the

> fears.... But I feel that all this he mentioned would be better

> classified under the heading of "purpose" or "function" These

> physical manifestations or appearances of things that are miracle in

> nature... Just like some things Jesus has done, are rather allowed to

> be, due to the being's function.... Not granted to them as super

> powers just because they realize I am..... Such a narrow view of

> reality do the likes of Michael present..... When anything is possible,

why do

> people deflate the possibilities by such difficult and limiting

standards.?

>

> XXXX

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December 16, 2001

Dear Bruce,

Interesting that you mention Missouri.

You wrote to Mike:

>>> With all do respect,

your challenge is very much

that of a Sadducee -- or an

American from the "show me"

state of Missouri! :-)<<<

Neat thing is, that when you show them they say, "that makes sense" and they

go for it...

I had (and still have) some very wonderful experiences with people from

Missouri...

They know a miracle when they see one....

Love, Bruce, Wim

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December 16, 2001

Dear friends,

thank you for this overwhelmingly kind, and in parts also witty, response.

It is truly to the credit of this very special list that even though there

might be some little disagreement, it has taken on this wonderful form.

I have carefully read each of your posts and hope to have understood what

each one of you is trying to say. You may be surprised to hear that I

believe we are not far apart here at all. But rather than try to explain

myself, please allow me to quote from Yoganandaji's "Autobiography of a

Yogi" where Sri Yukteswarji speaks about causal-bodied beings - the almost

free souls who have transcended physical and astral bondage and are no

longer subject to reincarnation even in the astral world. Of course, you may

or may not accept this as true, that is with each one of you.

Having spoken about the astral cosmos, Sri Yukteswarji goes on to say:

"The causal world is indescribably subtle. ... If by [this] superhuman

concentration one succeeded in converting or resolving the two cosmoses with

all their complexities into sheer ideas, he would then reach the causal

world and stand on the borderline of fusion between mind and matter. There

one perceives all created things - solids, liquids, gases, electricity,

energy, all beings, gods, men, animals, plants, bacteria - as forms of

consciousness, just as a man can close his eyes and realize that he exists,

even though his body is invisible to his physical eyes and is present only

as an idea.

"Whatever a human being can do in fancy, a causal being can do in reality.

The most colossal imaginative human intelligence is able, in mind only, to

range from one extreme of thought to another, to skip mentally from planet

to planet, or tumble endlessly down a pit of eternity, or soar rocketlike

into the galaxied canopy, or scintillate like a searchlight over milky ways

and starry spaces. But beings in the causal world have a much greater

freedom, and can effortlessly manifest their thoughts into instant

objectivity, without any material or astral obstruction or karmic

limitation.

"Causal beings realize that the physical cosmos is not primarily constructed

of electrons, nor is the astral cosmos basically composed of lifetrons -

both in reality are created from the minutest particles of God-thought,

chopped and divided by maya, the law of relativity that apparently

intervenes to separate creation from its Creator.

"Souls in the causal world recognize one another as individualized points of

joyous Spirit; their thought-things are the only objects that surround them.

Causal beings see the difference between their bodies and thoughts to be

merely ideas. As a man, closing his eyes, can visualize a dazzling white

light or a faint blue haze, so causal beings, by thought alone are able to

see, hear, smell, taste, touch; they create anything, or dissolve it, by the

power of cosmic mind.

"Both death and rebirth in the causal world are in thought. Causal-bodied

beings feast only on the ambrosia of eternally new knowledge. They drink

from the springs of peace, roam on the trackless soil of perceptions, swim

in the ocean-endlessness of bliss. Lo! see their bright thought-bodies zoom

past trillions of spirit-created planets, fresh bubbles of universes,

wisdom-stars, spectral dreams of golden nebulae on the skyey bosom of

Infinity!

"Many beings remain for thousands of years in the causal cosmos. By deeper

ecstasies the freed soul then withdraws itself from the little causal body

and puts on the vastness of the causal cosmos. All the separate eddies of

ideas, particularized waves of power, love, will, joy, peace, intuition,

calmness, self-control, and concentration melt into the ever-joyous Sea of

Bliss. No longer does the soul have to experience its joy as an

individualized wave of consciousness, but is merged into the One Cosmic

Ocean, with all its waves - eternal laughter, thrills, throbs.

"When a soul is out of the cocoon of the three bodies it escapes forever

from the law of relativity and become the ineffable Ever-Existent. Behold

the butterfly of Omnipresence, its wings etched with stars and moons and

suns! The soul expanded into Spirit remains alone in the region of lightless

light, darkless dark, thoughtless thought, intoxicated with the ecstasy of

joy in God's dream of cosmic creation.

....

"When a soul finally gets out of the three jars of bodily delusions, it

becomes one with the Infinite without any loss of individuality. Christ had

won this final freedom even before he was born as Jesus.

....

"The undeveloped man must undergo countless earthly and astral and causal

incarnations in order to emerge from his three bodies. A master who achieves

final freedom may elect to return to earth as a prophet to bring other human

beings back to God...

Love,

Michael

December 16, 2001

, MikeSuesserott@t... wrote:

> Dear Dan,

>

> see, you have been able to create words only. No new species has

emerged.

> :-)Creating words is not the same as realization, unfortunately.

>

> Michael

Hi Michael --

No claim to have created anything.

Reality is being/awareness, not created.

No claim was made that such "knowing" depends on words.

That realization transcends words is not at all unfortunate :-)

Dan

December 16, 2001

Ah yes, the great Babylonian god Rolex.

Worshipped by many ...

But who wound up Rolex?

He's right here, travelling incognito :-)

Unwinding,

Dan

> Can't you see, he's doing it even now? And so are you! But then,

maybe you're talking about a very large entity, like the master

watchmaker of the universe. Such entities have been posited many

times. But what is behind and before them? That's what I'm referring

to above...

>

> --Greg

December 16, 2001

Mike,

This is partly a rhetorical question, needs no answer.

If you are aligning yourself with a teaching that has levels and beings - have

you investigated whether it is the right teaching? Are you recommending it to

others? Some teachings have 3 levels, some have 5, some have 7, some have 8,

some 10, others 49, and some even have 172 levels. Have you merely landed on a

particular teaching, or is it a bhakti connection, or have you examined them all

and made an accurate, informed choice?

Love,

--Greg

At 02:24 PM 12/16/01 +0100, MikeSuesserott wrote:

>Dear friends,

>

>thank you for this overwhelmingly kind, and in parts also witty, response.

>It is truly to the credit of this very special list that even though there

>might be some little disagreement, it has taken on this wonderful form.

>

>I have carefully read each of your posts and hope to have understood what

>each one of you is trying to say. You may be surprised to hear that I

>believe we are not far apart here at all. But rather than try to explain

>myself, please allow me to quote from Yoganandaji's "Autobiography of a

>Yogi" where Sri Yukteswarji speaks about causal-bodied beings - the almost

>free souls who have transcended physical and astral bondage and are no

>longer subject to reincarnation even in the astral world. Of course, you may

>or may not accept this as true, that is with each one of you.

>

>Having spoken about the astral cosmos, Sri Yukteswarji goes on to say:

>

>"The causal world is indescribably subtle. ... If by [this] superhuman

>concentration one succeeded in converting or resolving the two cosmoses with

>all their complexities into sheer ideas, he would then reach the causal

>world and stand on the borderline of fusion between mind and matter. There

>one perceives all created things - solids, liquids, gases, electricity,

>energy, all beings, gods, men, animals, plants, bacteria - as forms of

>consciousness, just as a man can close his eyes and realize that he exists,

>even though his body is invisible to his physical eyes and is present only

>as an idea.

>

>"Whatever a human being can do in fancy, a causal being can do in reality.

>The most colossal imaginative human intelligence is able, in mind only, to

>range from one extreme of thought to another, to skip mentally from planet

>to planet, or tumble endlessly down a pit of eternity, or soar rocketlike

>into the galaxied canopy, or scintillate like a searchlight over milky ways

>and starry spaces. But beings in the causal world have a much greater

>freedom, and can effortlessly manifest their thoughts into instant

>objectivity, without any material or astral obstruction or karmic

>limitation.

>

>"Causal beings realize that the physical cosmos is not primarily constructed

>of electrons, nor is the astral cosmos basically composed of lifetrons -

>both in reality are created from the minutest particles of God-thought,

>chopped and divided by maya, the law of relativity that apparently

>intervenes to separate creation from its Creator.

>

>"Souls in the causal world recognize one another as individualized points of

>joyous Spirit; their thought-things are the only objects that surround them.

>Causal beings see the difference between their bodies and thoughts to be

>merely ideas. As a man, closing his eyes, can visualize a dazzling white

>light or a faint blue haze, so causal beings, by thought alone are able to

>see, hear, smell, taste, touch; they create anything, or dissolve it, by the

>power of cosmic mind.

>

>"Both death and rebirth in the causal world are in thought. Causal-bodied

>beings feast only on the ambrosia of eternally new knowledge. They drink

>from the springs of peace, roam on the trackless soil of perceptions, swim

>in the ocean-endlessness of bliss. Lo! see their bright thought-bodies zoom

>past trillions of spirit-created planets, fresh bubbles of universes,

>wisdom-stars, spectral dreams of golden nebulae on the skyey bosom of

>Infinity!

>

>"Many beings remain for thousands of years in the causal cosmos. By deeper

>ecstasies the freed soul then withdraws itself from the little causal body

>and puts on the vastness of the causal cosmos. All the separate eddies of

>ideas, particularized waves of power, love, will, joy, peace, intuition,

>calmness, self-control, and concentration melt into the ever-joyous Sea of

>Bliss. No longer does the soul have to experience its joy as an

>individualized wave of consciousness, but is merged into the One Cosmic

>Ocean, with all its waves - eternal laughter, thrills, throbs.

>

>"When a soul is out of the cocoon of the three bodies it escapes forever

>from the law of relativity and become the ineffable Ever-Existent. Behold

>the butterfly of Omnipresence, its wings etched with stars and moons and

>suns! The soul expanded into Spirit remains alone in the region of lightless

>light, darkless dark, thoughtless thought, intoxicated with the ecstasy of

>joy in God's dream of cosmic creation.

>...

>

>"When a soul finally gets out of the three jars of bodily delusions, it

>becomes one with the Infinite without any loss of individuality. Christ had

>won this final freedom even before he was born as Jesus.

>...

>

>"The undeveloped man must undergo countless earthly and astral and causal

>incarnations in order to emerge from his three bodies. A master who achieves

>final freedom may elect to return to earth as a prophet to bring other human

>beings back to God...

>

>Love,

>

>Michael

>

>/join

>

>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean,

all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does

not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is.

Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee

relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into

It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

December 16, 2001

That god is on my wrist now! I picked up a Rolex on Saturday at a friend's shop

in New Jersey. Did you know that the vast majority of Rolex's are

self-winding??

Love,

--Greg

At 10:19 PM 12/16/01 -0000, dan330033 wrote:

>Ah yes, the great Babylonian god Rolex.

>

>Worshipped by many ...

>

>But who wound up Rolex?

>

>He's right here, travelling incognito :-)

>

>Unwinding,

>Dan

>

>> Can't you see, he's doing it even now? And so are you! But then,

>maybe you're talking about a very large entity, like the master

>watchmaker of the universe. Such entities have been posited many

>times. But what is behind and before them? That's what I'm referring

>to above...

>>

>> --Greg

>

>/join

>

>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean,

all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does

not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is.

Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee

relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into

It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

December 17, 2001

In a message dated 12/16/01 5:21:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, goode

writes:

<< This is partly a rhetorical question, needs no answer.

>>

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha .... on this list????

December 17, 2001

Dear Greg-being,

Earth Plane,

I don't know what problem there should be with planes and beings. They do

exist in the same way that your house exists, no more and no less. Their

number will depend on how they are counted. If you don't believe

Yoganandaji, here is what Sri Ramana says:

----

Q : People talk of Vaikuntha, Kailasa, Indraloka, Chandraloka [the Hindu

heavens]. Do they really exist?

A: Certainly. You can rest assured that they all exist. There also a swami

like me will be found seated on a couch and disciples will also be seated

around him. They will ask something and he will say something in reply.

Everything will be more or less like this. What of that? If one sees

Chandraloka, one will ask for Indraloka, and after Indraloka, Vaikuntha and

after Vaikuntha, Kailasa and so on, and the mind goes on wandering. Where is

shanti [peace]? If shanti is required, the only correct method of securing

it is by self-enquiry. Through self-enquiry Self-realization is possible.

If one realizes the Self, one can see all these worlds within one's Self.

The source of everything is one's own Self, and if one realizes the Self,

one will not find anything different from the Self. Then these questions

will not arise. There may or may not be a Vaikuntha or a Kailasa but it is a

fact that you are here, isn't it? How are you here? Where are you? After you

know about these things, you can think of all those worlds.

-----

This is exactly the teaching of Yoganandaji also. He didn't found a

"Beings-and-Planes Fellowship", he founded "Self-Realization Fellowship". He

didn't place any importance on these planes except to tell us that they do

exist. Yoganandaji placed the utmost importance on developing love for God

and ultimately, by following the path he gave, union with God.

However, he would also caution against deluding oneself by believing to have

realized the Self just by virtue of having acquired an intellectual

understanding. Mind is given to many delusions; it is good to have a

yardstick against which to check one's realization.

Again, these are Sri Ramana's words: "If one realizes the Self, one can see

all these worlds within one's Self." Yoganandaji said the very same thing (I

repeat from a former post): "Just as a normal human being knows and feels

when his body is being touched, in the same way a realized person knows and

feels, as if in his own body, everything that is going on in all of the

universes in all the three worlds in all creation."

Love,

Michael

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----

> Von: goode [goode]

> Gesendet: Monday, December 17, 2001 02:18

> An: ;

> Betreff: Re: Re: Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs)

>

> Mike,

>

> This is partly a rhetorical question, needs no answer.

>

> If you are aligning yourself with a teaching that has levels and

> beings - have you investigated whether it is the right teaching?

> Are you recommending it to others? Some teachings have 3 levels,

> some have 5, some have 7, some have 8, some 10, others 49, and

> some even have 172 levels. Have you merely landed on a

> particular teaching, or is it a bhakti connection, or have you

> examined them all and made an accurate, informed choice?

>

> Love,

>

> --Greg

>

> At 02:24 PM 12/16/01 +0100, MikeSuesserott wrote:

> >Dear friends,

> >

> >thank you for this overwhelmingly kind, and in parts also witty,

> response.

> >It is truly to the credit of this very special list that even

> though there

> >might be some little disagreement, it has taken on this wonderful form.

> >

> >I have carefully read each of your posts and hope to have understood what

> >each one of you is trying to say. You may be surprised to hear that I

> >believe we are not far apart here at all. But rather than try to explain

> >myself, please allow me to quote from Yoganandaji's "Autobiography of a

> >Yogi" where Sri Yukteswarji speaks about causal-bodied beings -

> the almost

> >free souls who have transcended physical and astral bondage and are no

> >longer subject to reincarnation even in the astral world. Of

> course, you may

> >or may not accept this as true, that is with each one of you.

> >

> >Having spoken about the astral cosmos, Sri Yukteswarji goes on to say:

> >

> >"The causal world is indescribably subtle. ... If by [this] superhuman

> >concentration one succeeded in converting or resolving the two

> cosmoses with

> >all their complexities into sheer ideas, he would then reach the causal

> >world and stand on the borderline of fusion between mind and

> matter. There

> >one perceives all created things - solids, liquids, gases, electricity,

> >energy, all beings, gods, men, animals, plants, bacteria - as forms of

> >consciousness, just as a man can close his eyes and realize that

> he exists,

> >even though his body is invisible to his physical eyes and is

> present only

> >as an idea.

> >

> >"Whatever a human being can do in fancy, a causal being can do

> in reality.

> >The most colossal imaginative human intelligence is able, in

> mind only, to

> >range from one extreme of thought to another, to skip mentally

> from planet

> >to planet, or tumble endlessly down a pit of eternity, or soar rocketlike

> >into the galaxied canopy, or scintillate like a searchlight over

> milky ways

> >and starry spaces. But beings in the causal world have a much greater

> >freedom, and can effortlessly manifest their thoughts into instant

> >objectivity, without any material or astral obstruction or karmic

> >limitation.

> >

> >"Causal beings realize that the physical cosmos is not primarily

> constructed

> >of electrons, nor is the astral cosmos basically composed of lifetrons -

> >both in reality are created from the minutest particles of God-thought,

> >chopped and divided by maya, the law of relativity that apparently

> >intervenes to separate creation from its Creator.

> >

> >"Souls in the causal world recognize one another as

> individualized points of

> >joyous Spirit; their thought-things are the only objects that

> surround them.

> >Causal beings see the difference between their bodies and thoughts to be

> >merely ideas. As a man, closing his eyes, can visualize a dazzling white

> >light or a faint blue haze, so causal beings, by thought alone

> are able to

> >see, hear, smell, taste, touch; they create anything, or

> dissolve it, by the

> >power of cosmic mind.

> >

> >"Both death and rebirth in the causal world are in thought. Causal-bodied

> >beings feast only on the ambrosia of eternally new knowledge. They drink

> >from the springs of peace, roam on the trackless soil of

> perceptions, swim

> >in the ocean-endlessness of bliss. Lo! see their bright

> thought-bodies zoom

> >past trillions of spirit-created planets, fresh bubbles of universes,

> >wisdom-stars, spectral dreams of golden nebulae on the skyey bosom of

> >Infinity!

> >

> >"Many beings remain for thousands of years in the causal cosmos.

> By deeper

> >ecstasies the freed soul then withdraws itself from the little

> causal body

> >and puts on the vastness of the causal cosmos. All the separate eddies of

> >ideas, particularized waves of power, love, will, joy, peace, intuition,

> >calmness, self-control, and concentration melt into the

> ever-joyous Sea of

> >Bliss. No longer does the soul have to experience its joy as an

> >individualized wave of consciousness, but is merged into the One Cosmic

> >Ocean, with all its waves - eternal laughter, thrills, throbs.

> >

> >"When a soul is out of the cocoon of the three bodies it escapes forever

> >from the law of relativity and become the ineffable Ever-Existent. Behold

> >the butterfly of Omnipresence, its wings etched with stars and moons and

> >suns! The soul expanded into Spirit remains alone in the region

> of lightless

> >light, darkless dark, thoughtless thought, intoxicated with the

> ecstasy of

> >joy in God's dream of cosmic creation.

> >...

> >

> >"When a soul finally gets out of the three jars of bodily delusions, it

> >becomes one with the Infinite without any loss of individuality.

> Christ had

> >won this final freedom even before he was born as Jesus.

> >...

> >

> >"The undeveloped man must undergo countless earthly and astral and causal

> >incarnations in order to emerge from his three bodies. A master

> who achieves

> >final freedom may elect to return to earth as a prophet to bring

> other human

> >beings back to God...

> >

> >Love,

> >

> >Michael

> >

> >/join

> >

> >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

> sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and

> exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves

> rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from

> Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come

> and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart

> Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A

> true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> a.

> >

> >Your use of is subject to

>

> >

>

> /join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

> sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and

> exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves

> rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from

> Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come

> and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart

> Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A

> true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> a.

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

December 17, 2001

Hello Mike in the plane of cyberspace,

My rhetorical question is not about the *whether* but the *which*. Arms and

legs are just like Chandraloka and Purgatory. But which scheme will you go

with? There are more different schemes and maps than there are planes. Seems

like you are making a *particular* map of these levels into part of your

practice, and perhaps asserting its superiority over other maps. How do you

come to that?

Love,

Michael

At 01:09 PM 12/17/01 +0100, MikeSuesserott wrote:

-----

>This is exactly the teaching of Yoganandaji also. He didn't found a

>"Beings-and-Planes Fellowship", he founded "Self-Realization Fellowship". He

>didn't place any importance on these planes except to tell us that they do

>exist. Yoganandaji placed the utmost importance on developing love for God

>and ultimately, by following the path he gave, union with God.

>

>However, he would also caution against deluding oneself by believing to have

>realized the Self just by virtue of having acquired an intellectual

>understanding. Mind is given to many delusions; it is good to have a

>yardstick against which to check one's realization.

>

>Again, these are Sri Ramana's words: "If one realizes the Self, one can see

>all these worlds within one's Self." Yoganandaji said the very same thing (I

>repeat from a former post): "Just as a normal human being knows and feels

>when his body is being touched, in the same way a realized person knows and

>feels, as if in his own body, everything that is going on in all of the

>universes in all the three worlds in all creation."

>

>Love,

>

>Michael

December 17, 2001

Same as you come to it Gregji and we all do. In raising the question,

superiority implicitly is asserted. There is nothing wrong with it. This is

the nature of language.

By the way, my scheme of planes is the best one. Please everyone, get with

the program! .

Love to all

Harsha

goode [goode]

Monday, December 17, 2001 9:54 AM

;

Re: Re: Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs)

Hello Mike in the plane of cyberspace,

My rhetorical question is not about the *whether* but the *which*. Arms and

legs are just like Chandraloka and Purgatory. But which scheme will you go

with? There are more different schemes and maps than there are planes.

Seems like you are making a *particular* map of these levels into part of

your practice, and perhaps asserting its superiority over other maps. How

do you come to that?

Love,

Michael

At 01:09 PM 12/17/01 +0100, MikeSuesserott wrote:

-----

>This is exactly the teaching of Yoganandaji also. He didn't found a

>"Beings-and-Planes Fellowship", he founded "Self-Realization Fellowship".

He

>didn't place any importance on these planes except to tell us that they do

>exist. Yoganandaji placed the utmost importance on developing love for God

>and ultimately, by following the path he gave, union with God.

>

>However, he would also caution against deluding oneself by believing to

have

>realized the Self just by virtue of having acquired an intellectual

>understanding. Mind is given to many delusions; it is good to have a

>yardstick against which to check one's realization.

>

>Again, these are Sri Ramana's words: "If one realizes the Self, one can see

>all these worlds within one's Self." Yoganandaji said the very same thing

(I

>repeat from a former post): "Just as a normal human being knows and feels

>when his body is being touched, in the same way a realized person knows and

>feels, as if in his own body, everything that is going on in all of the

>universes in all the three worlds in all creation."

>

>Love,

>

>Michael

/join

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

Your use of is subject to

December 17, 2001

, MikeSuesserott@t... wrote:

> Dear Greg-being,

> Earth Plane,

>

> I don't know what problem there should be with planes and beings.

They do

> exist in the same way that your house exists, no more and no less.

Their

> number will depend on how they are counted. If you don't believe

> Yoganandaji, here is what Sri Ramana says:

Dearest Mike,

As you know, Sri Yoganandaji is my beloved Gurudeva also. I have

practiced Kriya Yoga since 1980. I have also lovingly listened to the

words of wisdom from Sri Ramana Maharshi. What Guruji has taught me

that stands supreme is that we are Love Itself. I used to feel

compelled to defend Master's teachings, my path, and anything to do

with Self-Realization Fellowship. Somehow I now have no desire or

need to do this. Master certainly doesn't need my defense! I'm not

saying this right I imagine, because you're not really defending,

just elaborating on the truth of what he says. His work and the love

he brought to all our lives stands and speaks for itself. We are the

teachings evidence, are we not, by our everyday example of our human

and divine qualities dancing so sweetly among all who we meet? I love

Guruji and what he's given me enough to know that I need nothing

else, no other instructors. I only want to be That Love he so

flowingly gave to the world and does every single second of our

existence. "Be like the rose. when crushed by criticism and

unkindness, give off a sweet fragrance of forgiveness." I imagine

this is the way I try to approach all situations that involve Master

and the teachings. They are swo sweet themselves that I can do

nothing to increase that fragrance except stand in it and inhale, and

hopefully, when I leave the room the hint of that love aroma will

remain as evidence of the Love I am. Be well my dear friend. You are

so precious to my heart,and this being here at Harsha's with you is

wonderful for me. I love you Mike.

Love, Peace,

Mazie

>

> --

--

> Q : People talk of Vaikuntha, Kailasa, Indraloka, Chandraloka [the

Hindu

> heavens]. Do they really exist?

>

> A: Certainly. You can rest assured that they all exist. There also

a swami

> like me will be found seated on a couch and disciples will also be

seated

> around him. They will ask something and he will say something in

reply.

> Everything will be more or less like this. What of that? If one sees

> Chandraloka, one will ask for Indraloka, and after Indraloka,

Vaikuntha and

> after Vaikuntha, Kailasa and so on, and the mind goes on wandering.

Where is

> shanti [peace]? If shanti is required, the only correct method of

securing

> it is by self-enquiry. Through self-enquiry Self-realization is

possible.

> If one realizes the Self, one can see all these worlds within

one's Self.

> The source of everything is one's own Self, and if one realizes the

Self,

> one will not find anything different from the Self. Then these

questions

> will not arise. There may or may not be a Vaikuntha or a Kailasa

but it is a

> fact that you are here, isn't it? How are you here? Where are you?

After you

> know about these things, you can think of all those worlds.

> --

---

>

> This is exactly the teaching of Yoganandaji also. He didn't found a

> "Beings-and-Planes Fellowship", he founded "Self-Realization

Fellowship". He

> didn't place any importance on these planes except to tell us that

they do

> exist. Yoganandaji placed the utmost importance on developing love

for God

> and ultimately, by following the path he gave, union with God.

>

> However, he would also caution against deluding oneself by

believing to have

> realized the Self just by virtue of having acquired an intellectual

> understanding. Mind is given to many delusions; it is good to have a

> yardstick against which to check one's realization.

>

> Again, these are Sri Ramana's words: "If one realizes the Self, one

can see

> all these worlds within one's Self." Yoganandaji said the very same

thing (I

> repeat from a former post): "Just as a normal human being knows and

feels

> when his body is being touched, in the same way a realized person

knows and

> feels, as if in his own body, everything that is going on in all of

the

> universes in all the three worlds in all creation."

>

> Love,

>

> Michael

>

> > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----

> > Von: goode@D... [goode@D...]

> > Gesendet: Monday, December 17, 2001 02:18

> > An: ;

> > Betreff: Re: Re: Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/

Drugs)

> >

> > Mike,

> >

> > This is partly a rhetorical question, needs no answer.

> >

> > If you are aligning yourself with a teaching that has levels and

> > beings - have you investigated whether it is the right teaching?

> > Are you recommending it to others? Some teachings have 3 levels,

> > some have 5, some have 7, some have 8, some 10, others 49, and

> > some even have 172 levels. Have you merely landed on a

> > particular teaching, or is it a bhakti connection, or have you

> > examined them all and made an accurate, informed choice?

> >

> > Love,

> >

> > --Greg

> >

> > At 02:24 PM 12/16/01 +0100, MikeSuesserott@t... wrote:

> > >Dear friends,

> > >

> > >thank you for this overwhelmingly kind, and in parts also witty,

> > response.

> > >It is truly to the credit of this very special list that even

> > though there

> > >might be some little disagreement, it has taken on this

wonderful form.

> > >

> > >I have carefully read each of your posts and hope to have

understood what

> > >each one of you is trying to say. You may be surprised to hear

that I

> > >believe we are not far apart here at all. But rather than try to

explain

> > >myself, please allow me to quote from

Yoganandaji's "Autobiography of a

> > >Yogi" where Sri Yukteswarji speaks about causal-bodied beings -

> > the almost

> > >free souls who have transcended physical and astral bondage and

are no

> > >longer subject to reincarnation even in the astral world. Of

> > course, you may

> > >or may not accept this as true, that is with each one of you.

> > >

> > >Having spoken about the astral cosmos, Sri Yukteswarji goes on

to say:

> > >

> > >"The causal world is indescribably subtle. ... If by [this]

superhuman

> > >concentration one succeeded in converting or resolving the two

> > cosmoses with

> > >all their complexities into sheer ideas, he would then reach the

causal

> > >world and stand on the borderline of fusion between mind and

> > matter. There

> > >one perceives all created things - solids, liquids, gases,

electricity,

> > >energy, all beings, gods, men, animals, plants, bacteria - as

forms of

> > >consciousness, just as a man can close his eyes and realize that

> > he exists,

> > >even though his body is invisible to his physical eyes and is

> > present only

> > >as an idea.

> > >

> > >"Whatever a human being can do in fancy, a causal being can do

> > in reality.

> > >The most colossal imaginative human intelligence is able, in

> > mind only, to

> > >range from one extreme of thought to another, to skip mentally

> > from planet

> > >to planet, or tumble endlessly down a pit of eternity, or soar

rocketlike

> > >into the galaxied canopy, or scintillate like a searchlight over

> > milky ways

> > >and starry spaces. But beings in the causal world have a much

greater

> > >freedom, and can effortlessly manifest their thoughts into

instant

> > >objectivity, without any material or astral obstruction or karmic

> > >limitation.

> > >

> > >"Causal beings realize that the physical cosmos is not primarily

> > constructed

> > >of electrons, nor is the astral cosmos basically composed of

lifetrons -

> > >both in reality are created from the minutest particles of God-

thought,

> > >chopped and divided by maya, the law of relativity that

apparently

> > >intervenes to separate creation from its Creator.

> > >

> > >"Souls in the causal world recognize one another as

> > individualized points of

> > >joyous Spirit; their thought-things are the only objects that

> > surround them.

> > >Causal beings see the difference between their bodies and

thoughts to be

> > >merely ideas. As a man, closing his eyes, can visualize a

dazzling white

> > >light or a faint blue haze, so causal beings, by thought alone

> > are able to

> > >see, hear, smell, taste, touch; they create anything, or

> > dissolve it, by the

> > >power of cosmic mind.

> > >

> > >"Both death and rebirth in the causal world are in thought.

Causal-bodied

> > >beings feast only on the ambrosia of eternally new knowledge.

They drink

> > >from the springs of peace, roam on the trackless soil of

> > perceptions, swim

> > >in the ocean-endlessness of bliss. Lo! see their bright

> > thought-bodies zoom

> > >past trillions of spirit-created planets, fresh bubbles of

universes,

> > >wisdom-stars, spectral dreams of golden nebulae on the skyey

bosom of

> > >Infinity!

> > >

> > >"Many beings remain for thousands of years in the causal cosmos.

> > By deeper

> > >ecstasies the freed soul then withdraws itself from the little

> > causal body

> > >and puts on the vastness of the causal cosmos. All the separate

eddies of

> > >ideas, particularized waves of power, love, will, joy, peace,

intuition,

> > >calmness, self-control, and concentration melt into the

> > ever-joyous Sea of

> > >Bliss. No longer does the soul have to experience its joy as an

> > >individualized wave of consciousness, but is merged into the One

Cosmic

> > >Ocean, with all its waves - eternal laughter, thrills, throbs.

> > >

> > >"When a soul is out of the cocoon of the three bodies it escapes

forever

> > >from the law of relativity and become the ineffable Ever-

Existent. Behold

> > >the butterfly of Omnipresence, its wings etched with stars and

moons and

> > >suns! The soul expanded into Spirit remains alone in the region

> > of lightless

> > >light, darkless dark, thoughtless thought, intoxicated with the

> > ecstasy of

> > >joy in God's dream of cosmic creation.

> > >...

> > >

> > >"When a soul finally gets out of the three jars of bodily

delusions, it

> > >becomes one with the Infinite without any loss of individuality.

> > Christ had

> > >won this final freedom even before he was born as Jesus.

> > >...

> > >

> > >"The undeveloped man must undergo countless earthly and astral

and causal

> > >incarnations in order to emerge from his three bodies. A master

> > who achieves

> > >final freedom may elect to return to earth as a prophet to bring

> > other human

> > >beings back to God...

> > >

> > >Love,

> > >

> > >Michael

> > >

> > >/join

> > >

> > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

> > sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and

> > exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves

> > rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from

> > Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come

> > and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart

> > Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A

> > true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> > a.

> > >

> > >Your use of is subject to

> >

> > >

> >

> > /join

> >

> > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

> > sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and

> > exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves

> > rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from

> > Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come

> > and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart

> > Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A

> > true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> > a.

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

> >

December 17, 2001

My I join in the mirth?

GCWein1111 [GCWein1111] wrote in answer to:

>> This is partly a rhetorical question, needs no answer.

> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha .... on this list????

(((:- Wim :-)))

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001

December 17, 2001

Dear Mazie,

you have spoken the words of wisdom that I needed. I bow to you.

Love,

Michael

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----

> Von: mazie_l [sraddha54]

> Gesendet: Monday, December 17, 2001 16:33

> An:

> Betreff: Re: Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs)

>

> , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote:

> > Dear Greg-being,

> > Earth Plane,

> >

> > I don't know what problem there should be with planes and beings.

> They do

> > exist in the same way that your house exists, no more and no less.

> Their

> > number will depend on how they are counted. If you don't believe

> > Yoganandaji, here is what Sri Ramana says:

>

> Dearest Mike,

>

> As you know, Sri Yoganandaji is my beloved Gurudeva also. I have

> practiced Kriya Yoga since 1980. I have also lovingly listened to the

> words of wisdom from Sri Ramana Maharshi. What Guruji has taught me

> that stands supreme is that we are Love Itself. I used to feel

> compelled to defend Master's teachings, my path, and anything to do

> with Self-Realization Fellowship. Somehow I now have no desire or

> need to do this. Master certainly doesn't need my defense! I'm not

> saying this right I imagine, because you're not really defending,

> just elaborating on the truth of what he says. His work and the love

> he brought to all our lives stands and speaks for itself. We are the

> teachings evidence, are we not, by our everyday example of our human

> and divine qualities dancing so sweetly among all who we meet? I love

> Guruji and what he's given me enough to know that I need nothing

> else, no other instructors. I only want to be That Love he so

> flowingly gave to the world and does every single second of our

> existence. "Be like the rose. when crushed by criticism and

> unkindness, give off a sweet fragrance of forgiveness." I imagine

> this is the way I try to approach all situations that involve Master

> and the teachings. They are swo sweet themselves that I can do

> nothing to increase that fragrance except stand in it and inhale, and

> hopefully, when I leave the room the hint of that love aroma will

> remain as evidence of the Love I am. Be well my dear friend. You are

> so precious to my heart,and this being here at Harsha's with you is

> wonderful for me. I love you Mike.

>

> Love, Peace,

> Mazie

>

> >

> > --

> --

> > Q : People talk of Vaikuntha, Kailasa, Indraloka, Chandraloka [the

> Hindu

> > heavens]. Do they really exist?

> >

> > A: Certainly. You can rest assured that they all exist. There also

> a swami

> > like me will be found seated on a couch and disciples will also be

> seated

> > around him. They will ask something and he will say something in

> reply.

> > Everything will be more or less like this. What of that? If one sees

> > Chandraloka, one will ask for Indraloka, and after Indraloka,

> Vaikuntha and

> > after Vaikuntha, Kailasa and so on, and the mind goes on wandering.

> Where is

> > shanti [peace]? If shanti is required, the only correct method of

> securing

> > it is by self-enquiry. Through self-enquiry Self-realization is

> possible.

> > If one realizes the Self, one can see all these worlds within

> one's Self.

> > The source of everything is one's own Self, and if one realizes the

> Self,

> > one will not find anything different from the Self. Then these

> questions

> > will not arise. There may or may not be a Vaikuntha or a Kailasa

> but it is a

> > fact that you are here, isn't it? How are you here? Where are you?

> After you

> > know about these things, you can think of all those worlds.

> > --

> ---

> >

> > This is exactly the teaching of Yoganandaji also. He didn't found a

> > "Beings-and-Planes Fellowship", he founded "Self-Realization

> Fellowship". He

> > didn't place any importance on these planes except to tell us that

> they do

> > exist. Yoganandaji placed the utmost importance on developing love

> for God

> > and ultimately, by following the path he gave, union with God.

> >

> > However, he would also caution against deluding oneself by

> believing to have

> > realized the Self just by virtue of having acquired an intellectual

> > understanding. Mind is given to many delusions; it is good to have a

> > yardstick against which to check one's realization.

> >

> > Again, these are Sri Ramana's words: "If one realizes the Self, one

> can see

> > all these worlds within one's Self." Yoganandaji said the very same

> thing (I

> > repeat from a former post): "Just as a normal human being knows and

> feels

> > when his body is being touched, in the same way a realized person

> knows and

> > feels, as if in his own body, everything that is going on in all of

> the

> > universes in all the three worlds in all creation."

> >

> > Love,

> >

> > Michael

> >

> > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----

> > > Von: goode@D... [goode@D...]

> > > Gesendet: Monday, December 17, 2001 02:18

> > > An: ;

> > > Betreff: Re: Re: Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/

> Drugs)

> > >

> > > Mike,

> > >

> > > This is partly a rhetorical question, needs no answer.

> > >

> > > If you are aligning yourself with a teaching that has levels and

> > > beings - have you investigated whether it is the right teaching?

> > > Are you recommending it to others? Some teachings have 3 levels,

> > > some have 5, some have 7, some have 8, some 10, others 49, and

> > > some even have 172 levels. Have you merely landed on a

> > > particular teaching, or is it a bhakti connection, or have you

> > > examined them all and made an accurate, informed choice?

> > >

> > > Love,

> > >

> > > --Greg

> > >

> > > At 02:24 PM 12/16/01 +0100, MikeSuesserott@t... wrote:

> > > >Dear friends,

> > > >

> > > >thank you for this overwhelmingly kind, and in parts also witty,

> > > response.

> > > >It is truly to the credit of this very special list that even

> > > though there

> > > >might be some little disagreement, it has taken on this

> wonderful form.

> > > >

> > > >I have carefully read each of your posts and hope to have

> understood what

> > > >each one of you is trying to say. You may be surprised to hear

> that I

> > > >believe we are not far apart here at all. But rather than try to

> explain

> > > >myself, please allow me to quote from

> Yoganandaji's "Autobiography of a

> > > >Yogi" where Sri Yukteswarji speaks about causal-bodied beings -

> > > the almost

> > > >free souls who have transcended physical and astral bondage and

> are no

> > > >longer subject to reincarnation even in the astral world. Of

> > > course, you may

> > > >or may not accept this as true, that is with each one of you.

> > > >

> > > >Having spoken about the astral cosmos, Sri Yukteswarji goes on

> to say:

> > > >

> > > >"The causal world is indescribably subtle. ... If by [this]

> superhuman

> > > >concentration one succeeded in converting or resolving the two

> > > cosmoses with

> > > >all their complexities into sheer ideas, he would then reach the

> causal

> > > >world and stand on the borderline of fusion between mind and

> > > matter. There

> > > >one perceives all created things - solids, liquids, gases,

> electricity,

> > > >energy, all beings, gods, men, animals, plants, bacteria - as

> forms of

> > > >consciousness, just as a man can close his eyes and realize that

> > > he exists,

> > > >even though his body is invisible to his physical eyes and is

> > > present only

> > > >as an idea.

> > > >

> > > >"Whatever a human being can do in fancy, a causal being can do

> > > in reality.

> > > >The most colossal imaginative human intelligence is able, in

> > > mind only, to

> > > >range from one extreme of thought to another, to skip mentally

> > > from planet

> > > >to planet, or tumble endlessly down a pit of eternity, or soar

> rocketlike

> > > >into the galaxied canopy, or scintillate like a searchlight over

> > > milky ways

> > > >and starry spaces. But beings in the causal world have a much

> greater

> > > >freedom, and can effortlessly manifest their thoughts into

> instant

> > > >objectivity, without any material or astral obstruction or karmic

> > > >limitation.

> > > >

> > > >"Causal beings realize that the physical cosmos is not primarily

> > > constructed

> > > >of electrons, nor is the astral cosmos basically composed of

> lifetrons -

> > > >both in reality are created from the minutest particles of God-

> thought,

> > > >chopped and divided by maya, the law of relativity that

> apparently

> > > >intervenes to separate creation from its Creator.

> > > >

> > > >"Souls in the causal world recognize one another as

> > > individualized points of

> > > >joyous Spirit; their thought-things are the only objects that

> > > surround them.

> > > >Causal beings see the difference between their bodies and

> thoughts to be

> > > >merely ideas. As a man, closing his eyes, can visualize a

> dazzling white

> > > >light or a faint blue haze, so causal beings, by thought alone

> > > are able to

> > > >see, hear, smell, taste, touch; they create anything, or

> > > dissolve it, by the

> > > >power of cosmic mind.

> > > >

> > > >"Both death and rebirth in the causal world are in thought.

> Causal-bodied

> > > >beings feast only on the ambrosia of eternally new knowledge.

> They drink

> > > >from the springs of peace, roam on the trackless soil of

> > > perceptions, swim

> > > >in the ocean-endlessness of bliss. Lo! see their bright

> > > thought-bodies zoom

> > > >past trillions of spirit-created planets, fresh bubbles of

> universes,

> > > >wisdom-stars, spectral dreams of golden nebulae on the skyey

> bosom of

> > > >Infinity!

> > > >

> > > >"Many beings remain for thousands of years in the causal cosmos.

> > > By deeper

> > > >ecstasies the freed soul then withdraws itself from the little

> > > causal body

> > > >and puts on the vastness of the causal cosmos. All the separate

> eddies of

> > > >ideas, particularized waves of power, love, will, joy, peace,

> intuition,

> > > >calmness, self-control, and concentration melt into the

> > > ever-joyous Sea of

> > > >Bliss. No longer does the soul have to experience its joy as an

> > > >individualized wave of consciousness, but is merged into the One

> Cosmic

> > > >Ocean, with all its waves - eternal laughter, thrills, throbs.

> > > >

> > > >"When a soul is out of the cocoon of the three bodies it escapes

> forever

> > > >from the law of relativity and become the ineffable Ever-

> Existent. Behold

> > > >the butterfly of Omnipresence, its wings etched with stars and

> moons and

> > > >suns! The soul expanded into Spirit remains alone in the region

> > > of lightless

> > > >light, darkless dark, thoughtless thought, intoxicated with the

> > > ecstasy of

> > > >joy in God's dream of cosmic creation.

> > > >...

> > > >

> > > >"When a soul finally gets out of the three jars of bodily

> delusions, it

> > > >becomes one with the Infinite without any loss of individuality.

> > > Christ had

> > > >won this final freedom even before he was born as Jesus.

> > > >...

> > > >

> > > >"The undeveloped man must undergo countless earthly and astral

> and causal

> > > >incarnations in order to emerge from his three bodies. A master

> > > who achieves

> > > >final freedom may elect to return to earth as a prophet to bring

> > > other human

> > > >beings back to God...

> > > >

> > > >Love,

> > > >

> > > >Michael

> > > >

> > > >/join

> > > >

> > > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

> > > sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and

> > > exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves

> > > rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from

> > > Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come

> > > and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart

> > > Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A

> > > true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> > > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> > > a.

> > > >

> > > >Your use of is subject to

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > /join

> > >

> > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

> > > sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and

> > > exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves

> > > rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from

> > > Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come

> > > and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart

> > > Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A

> > > true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> > > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> > > a.

> > >

> > > Your use of is subject to

>

> > >

>

> /join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

> sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and

> exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves

> rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from

> Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come

> and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart

> Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A

> true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> a.

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

December 17, 2001

Michael,

And I bow to Mazie's sweetness and your kindness!

Love,

--Greg

At 04:41 PM 12/17/01 +0100, MikeSuesserott wrote:

>Dear Mazie,

>

>you have spoken the words of wisdom that I needed. I bow to you.

>

>Love,

>

>Michael

December 17, 2001

Dearest Sister Mazie and Brother Mike,

Thank you for sharing your sweetness and wisdom. We are enveloped by the

fragrance of your kindness and love.

Love to all

Harsha

mazie_l [sraddha54]

Monday, December 17, 2001 10:33 AM