Michael/ Dan/Jody/Bruce/Others/ Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs)

[Guest guest]

Both the perspectives put forth by Michaelji and Jodyji, Danji, Bruceji and

others have value and need not be dismissed. Some say that the path to full

liberation is through successive movements through higher planes. That is

the path of Siddhas. Jnanis such as Sri Ramana have pointed out that the

higher planes only exist in consciousness, same as the lower planes and this

one. If the primary focus of consciousness becomes its own nature, the point

of planes becomes moot. The tension between the so called Siddha path and

Jnana path has existed for a long time and there are many stories in the

literature to illustrate the differences.

 

The Yogis who realize the highest consciousness and Jnanis see no difference

anywhere. Swami Yogananda had no problem visiting Sri Ramana. A Jnani sees

clearly the convergence of all paths. Some of the greatest yogis (like Yogi

Ramiah) were the devotees of Sri Ramana. Shankracharyas of the day paid

their respects to the Sage of Arunachala who was beyond all stages of life,

all higher and lower planes, and other technicalities of formal initiation.

 

His very look was our salvation. He opened our Heart.

 

The path and trajectory of each soul is unique. We are here to love and

support each other and not challenge the validity of each other's practice

or understanding (although some challenging is fun :-).

 

Lots of love

Harsha

 

 

MikeSuesserott [MikeSuesserott]

Sunday, December 16, 2001 8:25 AM

Re: Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs)

 

 

Dear friends,

 

thank you for this overwhelmingly kind, and in parts also witty, response.

It is truly to the credit of this very special list that even though there

might be some little disagreement, it has taken on this wonderful form.

 

I have carefully read each of your posts and hope to have understood what

each one of you is trying to say. You may be surprised to hear that I

believe we are not far apart here at all. But rather than try to explain

myself, please allow me to quote from Yoganandaji's "Autobiography of a

Yogi" where Sri Yukteswarji speaks about causal-bodied beings - the almost

free souls who have transcended physical and astral bondage and are no

longer subject to reincarnation even in the astral world. Of course, you may

or may not accept this as true, that is with each one of you.

 

Having spoken about the astral cosmos, Sri Yukteswarji goes on to say:

 

"The causal world is indescribably subtle. ... If by [this] superhuman

concentration one succeeded in converting or resolving the two cosmoses with

all their complexities into sheer ideas, he would then reach the causal

world and stand on the borderline of fusion between mind and matter. There

one perceives all created things - solids, liquids, gases, electricity,

energy, all beings, gods, men, animals, plants, bacteria - as forms of

consciousness, just as a man can close his eyes and realize that he exists,

even though his body is invisible to his physical eyes and is present only

as an idea.

 

"Whatever a human being can do in fancy, a causal being can do in reality.

The most colossal imaginative human intelligence is able, in mind only, to

range from one extreme of thought to another, to skip mentally from planet

to planet, or tumble endlessly down a pit of eternity, or soar rocketlike

into the galaxied canopy, or scintillate like a searchlight over milky ways

and starry spaces. But beings in the causal world have a much greater

freedom, and can effortlessly manifest their thoughts into instant

objectivity, without any material or astral obstruction or karmic

limitation.

 

"Causal beings realize that the physical cosmos is not primarily constructed

of electrons, nor is the astral cosmos basically composed of lifetrons -

both in reality are created from the minutest particles of God-thought,

chopped and divided by maya, the law of relativity that apparently

intervenes to separate creation from its Creator.

 

"Souls in the causal world recognize one another as individualized points of

joyous Spirit; their thought-things are the only objects that surround them.

Causal beings see the difference between their bodies and thoughts to be

merely ideas. As a man, closing his eyes, can visualize a dazzling white

light or a faint blue haze, so causal beings, by thought alone are able to

see, hear, smell, taste, touch; they create anything, or dissolve it, by the

power of cosmic mind.

 

"Both death and rebirth in the causal world are in thought. Causal-bodied

beings feast only on the ambrosia of eternally new knowledge. They drink

from the springs of peace, roam on the trackless soil of perceptions, swim

in the ocean-endlessness of bliss. Lo! see their bright thought-bodies zoom

past trillions of spirit-created planets, fresh bubbles of universes,

wisdom-stars, spectral dreams of golden nebulae on the skyey bosom of

Infinity!

 

"Many beings remain for thousands of years in the causal cosmos. By deeper

ecstasies the freed soul then withdraws itself from the little causal body

and puts on the vastness of the causal cosmos. All the separate eddies of

ideas, particularized waves of power, love, will, joy, peace, intuition,

calmness, self-control, and concentration melt into the ever-joyous Sea of

Bliss. No longer does the soul have to experience its joy as an

individualized wave of consciousness, but is merged into the One Cosmic

Ocean, with all its waves - eternal laughter, thrills, throbs.

 

"When a soul is out of the cocoon of the three bodies it escapes forever

from the law of relativity and become the ineffable Ever-Existent. Behold

the butterfly of Omnipresence, its wings etched with stars and moons and

suns! The soul expanded into Spirit remains alone in the region of lightless

light, darkless dark, thoughtless thought, intoxicated with the ecstasy of

joy in God's dream of cosmic creation.

....

 

"When a soul finally gets out of the three jars of bodily delusions, it

becomes one with the Infinite without any loss of individuality. Christ had

won this final freedom even before he was born as Jesus.

....

 

"The undeveloped man must undergo countless earthly and astral and causal

incarnations in order to emerge from his three bodies. A master who achieves

final freedom may elect to return to earth as a prophet to bring other human

beings back to God...

 

Love,

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

.....within the context of this discussion as i have followed it there is a

fundamental duality....the duality between the mental concept that there is a

platonic ideal or static condition of existence that can be arrived at and once

reached all sense of progression ceases and the opposing notion that

consciousness is always arising ever higher through ever successively subtle

planes.....this argument can be simplfied by stating that on one side you have

individuals who believe that consciousness is flat and on the other individuals

who believe that it is a spiral....within the west this argument rages between

two camps...some align themselves with religious creationists and some with

scientific evolutionists....others align themselves with monotheism and others

with polytheism....advaitists tend to see themselves in a dualistic relationship

with trinitarians....from my perspective, all these are expressions of the same

pan-cultural and pervasive duality that has and continues to haunt human

consciousness since the first man stood up in awe and self-consciously gazed at

creation....it is just recently and in our life-times that we are seeing the

beginnings of an attempt at reconciling this duality....individuals like Bede

Griffeths, Ken Wilber, Rupert Sheldrade, Jean-Pierre de Caussade, Beatice

Breateau, the Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hahn, etc. are all pushing humanity beyond

the already assimilated the teachings of great gurus past and reaching out to

each other to collectively synthesize the accumulated wisdom of

humanity....modern science (physics/biology) and religion

(philosophy/theology/psychology) are drawing close once again after several

hundred years of divergence....the problem to some degree is one of semiotics,

but i digress too far....returning, words like 'enlightenment' and 'liberation'

lose meaning when they are not understood within context....whether a given

siddhi or jnani is more awakened than another can only be determined by

perspective...from my limited perspective human consciousness in the west has

evolved to the point that the number of 'enlightened' beings walking around is

too countless to number....well developed, sensible egos abound

everywhere....this has resulted in a profusion of teachers that are too

countless to even keep track of for even a genius like ken wilber.....the energy

animating this discussion for me is derived from the fact when each individual

has his or her first breakthrough into higher consciousness there is a sense

that what is being experienced is unique and that it must be understood and

shared....as i write countless creatures are arising into relatively higher

consciousness....the act of writing this response is evidence of my own

continuing journey into higher consciousness.....if i am already awake it is

only relative to where i was yesterday.....as dylan thomas reminded us, "we can

never return home".....the tao is not so sentimental and foolish as to allow its

success to be dependant upon a solitary success story....the fecundity of life

is staggering.....many individual failures are allowed so that

life/consciousness itself may arise higher and higher...along the way history is

littered with failure....species that have come and gone....races and societies

that have come and gone....from our limited current historical perspective of

today, the history of religion is caulk full of self-realized and self-professed

(false) prophets, fakirs, faith-healers and snake-oil medicine men, some better

than others....they are all evidence of the journey we are all a part of....my

experience of them is that they were or are almost always sincere and

compassionate beings with good intentions.....yet almost all manipulated those

who were/are more vulnerable than them for the gratification of their own need

to some degree,. i.e., the need primal desire to arise to something better than

those who came before me....real compassion as that attributed to buddha or

jesus is still before us as individuals and as a species.....both the buddha and

jesus down-played the importance of miraculous manifestations in which higher

consciousness is used to manipulate the appearance of reality to baffle the

gullible or less evolved....ultimately all true teachers become false

teachers....there are only pilgrims seeking their way up the sacred

mountain....sometimes paths cross and we join this or that church or

sangha.....we nurture each other for a while and then our paths diverge and we

continue on our solitary way.....we are and are not alone.....today i am your

student, tomorrow you are mine.....lao tzu reminds us that.....

 

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?

What is a bad man but a good man's charge?"

 

....jesus reminds us that including himself....

 

"There is none good but the Father."

 

.....everytime i look in the mirror, i see a buddha to be and know that as a

false buddha i have to die daily....so, i get out manjusri's noble sound and

surrender it to my beloved, to the deeper wisdom she manifests and gives me

through all of you who share your experience of the journey here in this

wonderful place called .....because of all you i am filled with

deep gratitude for this precious gift we call life.....^^~~~~~~

 

further up and further in,

 

white wolfe

 

 

 

> Both the perspectives put forth by Michaelji and Jodyji, Danji, Bruceji and

> others have value and need not be dismissed. Some say that the path to full

> liberation is through successive movements through higher planes. That is

> the path of Siddhas. Jnanis such as Sri Ramana have pointed out that the

> higher planes only exist in consciousness, same as the lower planes and this

> one. If the primary focus of consciousness becomes its own nature, the point

> of planes becomes moot. The tension between the so called Siddha path and

> Jnana path has existed for a long time and there are many stories in the

> literature to illustrate the differences.

>

> The Yogis who realize the highest consciousness and Jnanis see no difference

> anywhere. Swami Yogananda had no problem visiting Sri Ramana. A Jnani sees

> clearly the convergence of all paths. Some of the greatest yogis (like Yogi

> Ramiah) were the devotees of Sri Ramana. Shankracharyas of the day paid

> their respects to the Sage of Arunachala who was beyond all stages of life,

> all higher and lower planes, and other technicalities of formal initiation.

>

> His very look was our salvation. He opened our Heart.

>

> The path and trajectory of each soul is unique. We are here to love and

> support each other and not challenge the validity of each other's practice

> or understanding (although some challenging is fun :-).

>

> Lots of love

> Harsha

>

>

> MikeSuesserott [MikeSuesserott]

> Sunday, December 16, 2001 8:25 AM

>

> Re: Realization (was: Mie/Smadhi/ Drugs)

>

>

> Dear friends,

>

> thank you for this overwhelmingly kind, and in parts also witty, response.

> It is truly to the credit of this very special list that even though there

> might be some little disagreement, it has taken on this wonderful form.

>

> I have carefully read each of your posts and hope to have understood what

> each one of you is trying to say. You may be surprised to hear that I

> believe we are not far apart here at all. But rather than try to explain

> myself, please allow me to quote from Yoganandaji's "Autobiography of a

> Yogi" where Sri Yukteswarji speaks about causal-bodied beings - the almost

> free souls who have transcended physical and astral bondage and are no

> longer subject to reincarnation even in the astral world. Of course, you may

> or may not accept this as true, that is with each one of you.

>

> Having spoken about the astral cosmos, Sri Yukteswarji goes on to say:

>

> "The causal world is indescribably subtle. ... If by [this] superhuman

> concentration one succeeded in converting or resolving the two cosmoses with

> all their complexities into sheer ideas, he would then reach the causal

> world and stand on the borderline of fusion between mind and matter. There

> one perceives all created things - solids, liquids, gases, electricity,

> energy, all beings, gods, men, animals, plants, bacteria - as forms of

> consciousness, just as a man can close his eyes and realize that he exists,

> even though his body is invisible to his physical eyes and is present only

> as an idea.

>

> "Whatever a human being can do in fancy, a causal being can do in reality.

> The most colossal imaginative human intelligence is able, in mind only, to

> range from one extreme of thought to another, to skip mentally from planet

> to planet, or tumble endlessly down a pit of eternity, or soar rocketlike

> into the galaxied canopy, or scintillate like a searchlight over milky ways

> and starry spaces. But beings in the causal world have a much greater

> freedom, and can effortlessly manifest their thoughts into instant

> objectivity, without any material or astral obstruction or karmic

> limitation.

>

> "Causal beings realize that the physical cosmos is not primarily constructed

> of electrons, nor is the astral cosmos basically composed of lifetrons -

> both in reality are created from the minutest particles of God-thought,

> chopped and divided by maya, the law of relativity that apparently

> intervenes to separate creation from its Creator.

>

> "Souls in the causal world recognize one another as individualized points of

> joyous Spirit; their thought-things are the only objects that surround them.

> Causal beings see the difference between their bodies and thoughts to be

> merely ideas. As a man, closing his eyes, can visualize a dazzling white

> light or a faint blue haze, so causal beings, by thought alone are able to

> see, hear, smell, taste, touch; they create anything, or dissolve it, by the

> power of cosmic mind.

>

> "Both death and rebirth in the causal world are in thought. Causal-bodied

> beings feast only on the ambrosia of eternally new knowledge. They drink

> from the springs of peace, roam on the trackless soil of perceptions, swim

> in the ocean-endlessness of bliss. Lo! see their bright thought-bodies zoom

> past trillions of spirit-created planets, fresh bubbles of universes,

> wisdom-stars, spectral dreams of golden nebulae on the skyey bosom of

> Infinity!

>

> "Many beings remain for thousands of years in the causal cosmos. By deeper

> ecstasies the freed soul then withdraws itself from the little causal body

> and puts on the vastness of the causal cosmos. All the separate eddies of

> ideas, particularized waves of power, love, will, joy, peace, intuition,

> calmness, self-control, and concentration melt into the ever-joyous Sea of

> Bliss. No longer does the soul have to experience its joy as an

> individualized wave of consciousness, but is merged into the One Cosmic

> Ocean, with all its waves - eternal laughter, thrills, throbs.

>

> "When a soul is out of the cocoon of the three bodies it escapes forever

> from the law of relativity and become the ineffable Ever-Existent. Behold

> the butterfly of Omnipresence, its wings etched with stars and moons and

> suns! The soul expanded into Spirit remains alone in the region of lightless

> light, darkless dark, thoughtless thought, intoxicated with the ecstasy of

> joy in God's dream of cosmic creation.

> ...

>

> "When a soul finally gets out of the three jars of bodily delusions, it

> becomes one with the Infinite without any loss of individuality. Christ had

> won this final freedom even before he was born as Jesus.

> ...

>

> "The undeveloped man must undergo countless earthly and astral and causal

> incarnations in order to emerge from his three bodies. A master who achieves

> final freedom may elect to return to earth as a prophet to bring other human

> beings back to God...

>

> Love,

>

> Michael

>

>

>

>

> /join

>

>

>

>

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean,

all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does

not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is.

Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee

relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into

It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

White Wolfe & Friends,

 

I'm not sure that I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of it,

but "....advaitists tend to see themselves in a dualistic

relationship with trinitarians....is a gem.

 

yours in the bonds,

eric

 

 

 

 

, "White Wolfe" <valemar.1@h...> wrote:

>

> ....within the context of this discussion as i have followed it

there is a fundamental duality....the duality between the mental

concept that there is a platonic ideal or static condition of

existence that can be arrived at and once reached all sense of

progression ceases and the opposing notion that consciousness is

always arising ever higher through ever successively subtle

planes.....this argument can be simplfied by stating that on one side

you have individuals who believe that consciousness is flat and on

the other individuals who believe that it is a spiral....within the

west this argument rages between two camps...some align themselves

with religious creationists and some with scientific

evolutionists....others align themselves with monotheism and others

with polytheism....advaitists tend to see themselves in a dualistic

relationship with trinitarians....from my perspective, all these are

expressions of the same pan-cultural and pervasive duality that has

and continues to haunt human consciousness since the first man stood

up in awe and self-consciously gazed at creation....it is just

recently and in our life-times that we are seeing the beginnings of

an attempt at reconciling this duality....individuals like Bede

Griffeths, Ken Wilber, Rupert Sheldrade, Jean-Pierre de Caussade,

Beatice Breateau, the Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hahn, etc. are all

pushing humanity beyond the already assimilated the teachings of

great gurus past and reaching out to each other to collectively

synthesize the accumulated wisdom of humanity....modern science

(physics/biology) and religion (philosophy/theology/psychology) are

drawing close once again after several hundred years of

divergence....the problem to some degree is one of semiotics, but i

digress too far....returning, words like 'enlightenment'

and 'liberation' lose meaning when they are not understood within

context....whether a given siddhi or jnani is more awakened than

another can only be determined by perspective...from my limited

perspective human consciousness in the west has evolved to the point

that the number of 'enlightened' beings walking around is too

countless to number....well developed, sensible egos abound

everywhere....this has resulted in a profusion of teachers that are

too countless to even keep track of for even a genius like ken

wilber.....the energy animating this discussion for me is derived

from the fact when each individual has his or her first breakthrough

into higher consciousness there is a sense that what is being

experienced is unique and that it must be understood and shared....as

i write countless creatures are arising into relatively higher

consciousness....the act of writing this response is evidence of my

own continuing journey into higher consciousness.....if i am already

awake it is only relative to where i was yesterday.....as dylan

thomas reminded us, "we can never return home".....the tao is not so

sentimental and foolish as to allow its success to be dependant upon

a solitary success story....the fecundity of life is

staggering.....many individual failures are allowed so that

life/consciousness itself may arise higher and higher...along the way

history is littered with failure....species that have come and

gone....races and societies that have come and gone....from our

limited current historical perspective of today, the history of

religion is caulk full of self-realized and self-professed (false)

prophets, fakirs, faith-healers and snake-oil medicine men, some

better than others....they are all evidence of the journey we are all

a part of....my experience of them is that they were or are almost

always sincere and compassionate beings with good intentions.....yet

almost all manipulated those who were/are more vulnerable than them

for the gratification of their own need to some degree,. i.e., the

need primal desire to arise to something better than those who came

before me....real compassion as that attributed to buddha or jesus is

still before us as individuals and as a species.....both the buddha

and jesus down-played the importance of miraculous manifestations in

which higher consciousness is used to manipulate the appearance of

reality to baffle the gullible or less evolved....ultimately all true

teachers become false teachers....there are only pilgrims seeking

their way up the sacred mountain....sometimes paths cross and we join

this or that church or sangha.....we nurture each other for a while

and then our paths diverge and we continue on our solitary way.....we

are and are not alone.....today i am your student, tomorrow you are

mine.....lao tzu reminds us that.....

>

> "What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?

> What is a bad man but a good man's charge?"

>

> ...jesus reminds us that including himself....

>

> "There is none good but the Father."

>

> ....everytime i look in the mirror, i see a buddha to be and know

that as a false buddha i have to die daily....so, i get out

manjusri's noble sound and surrender it to my beloved, to the deeper

wisdom she manifests and gives me through all of you who share your

experience of the journey here in this wonderful place called

.....because of all you i am filled with deep gratitude

for this precious gift we call life.....^^~~~~~~

>

> further up and further in,

>

> white wolfe

>

>