Guest guest Posted December 21, 2001 Report Share Posted December 21, 2001 Hi there, my dear Bruce, You wrote: >>> Frankly, I admire him [Jody] for actually wading through Wim's verbosity in order to reply to it! <<< I do too :-) Love you, Bruce, Wim PS For hip waders, http://www.shopoutdoors.com/hodgman.html http:www.hip_waders.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2001 Report Share Posted December 21, 2001 Hi Wim, pretty ironic that this thread is entitled 'words', huh? David , "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote: > Dear Jody, > > >>> It's true that jnana is not the result of speculation. That's not why > I'm speculating. I'm speculating as to why you would babble on about your > "abilities." <<< > > You don't have to speculate, just see if there is something in it for you, > and if not... put it by the curb. But make up your mind... > > Speculators have a hard time making up their mind, that is why they are > called 'speculators' )) > They are afraid that, if they make up their mind, that they may lose a > chance... That is why speculators hardly take a chance either...They only > speculate if they should or should not take a chance. They are so cautious > that they will, as long as they keep speculating, not be regain their > freedom. When a speculator finally takes a chance...the speculation is > over...and a new 'dynamic' sets in... > > >> The conclusion I come to is that you've come to be identified with the > one who has those powers. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it does > indicate that perhaps you > haven't quite understood who you really are, imo.<<< > > You try to fit me into a Jnani or Siddha box, while I need no box at all. > YOU haven't understood who I am, that is why it is YOUR opinion. Having an > opinion will never lead to insight and clarity. > There is no way that you will have insight into me as long as you don't want > clear insight. For clear insight, you would have to take a stance, would > you? > > So, put me by the wayside, or take me in, one for all, or all for nothing... > I assure you that you don't run a risk either way. Now you are just in a > state of protraction. > Whatever I say, you will doubt and you will take yourself into a new cycle > of speculation. Doubt is your compulsion, better get sick of it... till you > stop doing it...till you don't want to afford it anymore... > I hope that I can help you getting sick of your doubt, lack of trust, > feeling that you could be duped. "Je houdt altijd een draai om de arm" or > "een slag om de hand" which are Dutch sayings expressing habitual states of > 'non-commitment'. > Commit yourself Jody, and if that means that you have to discard me or take > me in, that does not matter to me... > > Just get final clarity into "NOT what you want" as you don't know that... > but get clarity into: > what you are, > what you have and > what you take > > that you are > that you have and > that you take > > be, have and take fully, > with both hands, embracing fully... > > Whether it includes me or not, it does not make a difference, either choice > gets you into a new dynamic of freedom. > So love me or leave me. (Oh, but do not replace me with someone else, > another Tony or another Wim, that will just prolong the protraction.) > > So Jody, stop beating around the bush hoping that there is something > worthwhile to catch, while you, at the same time, wonder that, what you > might catch, might or might not dupe you. > > >>> Even if you do know who you really are, I as an individual am against > the idea that siddhis have anything to do with jnana, or that one can expect > siddhis as the result of jnana.<<< > > What do you know eh? Why don't you just ask me... Then make up your mind, > once and for all, and you doubt will be over... > > >>> The problem I have with this is that powers have nothing to do with > jnana, but everything to do with the occlusion of it.<<< > > Just ask me, Jody, apparently you cannot use yourself as a guide as you > admit that you have a problem, I don't, I know the answer. > > >>>My problem is the association of jnana with siddhis.<<< > > Yep, that is your problem !!! Why keeping it. > > >>> People come to expect "remarkable stuff" with their realization as the > result the myths that are projected into spiritual culture. <<< > > I expected nothing, that is exactly why it is so remarkable... And I tell > you, I may be remarkable... but I am not mythical. > > >>> My problem with you is that you are presently doing this projection on > the list. <<< > > Yes, you have a problem with me... I don't have a problem with me, I don't > have a problem with you... > Your staying or you going, it does not matter to me... I love you > unconditionally...It is for you to restore the unconditionality. > > So you are saying that being a jnani is conditional upon being no siddha... > or a siddha cannot be a jnani... or something like that... > Ah Jody, conditionality, conditionality... > > >>> While realization is a remarkable blessing, one of the most remarkable > things about it is the utter lack of remarkability it brings to a life. <<< > > Yes, that is why I play... > > >>> But you are free to say whatever you like. Blather on till the cows > come home about what the Buddha is telling you. I think you're fooling > yourself with it, and it has nothing to do with jnana.<<< > > I am not professing to be a jnani nor a siddha, I just am Wim who loves > whatever this is... > > >>> The reason I'm in the same vein most of the time is because I encounter > the same ignorance most of the time.<<< > > Some psychobabble: When you have just bought a new VW beetle, you see a lot > more VW beetles on the road, when you buy into ignorance you will see a lot > of it as well. > > >>> I'm just another opinion in pixels. There's no reason to present > anything other than that. This mind encounters what it deems ignorance, and > then it reacts to such. That's about all there is to me online.<<< > > Like I said, you are seeing a lot of BMW's. > > >>> This mind encounters what it deems ignorance, and then it reacts to such > <<< > > When and where did you pick up the idea that the ***mind*** deals with > ignorance? > The whole human being deals with information, which comes from conglomerates > of energy patterns, that are collected as 'knowledge points' or data. Data > that are supplied to the brain by means of parallel (identical but not the > same) energy patterns through the senses via an intricate web of nerve > structures and other support structures.. > Although we are whole integral beings, 'dualism' has erroneously made us > conceive a sharp distinction between mind and body. But there is the whole > you, JODY, with integrated infra and supra structures to supports that.... > That is you Jody, you who sits HERE, physically reading this and hopefully > poking your nose or scratching your ears... > > The kind of mind you are talking about is symptomatic of a pathology, let me > just simply call it the mind / body split, a sign of dualism . > > >>> This mind encounters what it deems ignorance, and then it reacts to > such. That's about all there is to me online.<<< > > Ah, finally, you are now getting bored, that is good, you will start hating > this ignorance so much that won't even look at it anymore... > You know what, that is the beginning of Chit, a good sign... > > I wrote: > >>> Jody, tell me, what is the use then, really?... <<< > > You wrote: > >>>The use is to present the idea that siddhis have nothing to do with > jnana, and in fact get in the way of jnana. I'll go on about this ad > nauseam. <<< > > Are you by chance PRESCRIBING what anything is... Why not just looking and > finding out, instead of fitting things into a mindless or mindful (take your > pick) mould...? > > I have only described myself because I am everyday happily surprised... When > I gave up my (as forced upon me by someone else) prescriptions and > expectations on how to be, when I surrendered my inhibitions, the integral > being unfolded... > Why don't you do the same, then we can finally play... > > I wrote: > >>> NOT THAT IT IS NEEDED to talk about myself, but hey Jody, people have > been doing it from the moment the word "I" was voiced. <<< > > You wrote: > >>> I'd speculate that there is a need, and you use this list to fulfill it. > It provides the hook for your identity as a siddha.<<< > > I am Wim, that is all... > > I wrote: > >>> You, Jody, can do with it what you want...In fact, you are doing nothing > with it... except for assessing it... Assessing food, does not make you get > the fruition and nutrition from it.<<< > > You wrote: > >>> You've not put up anything I'd consider palatable. Despite the > overwhelming quantity, I've yet to encounter any quality.<<< > > Put it by the curb then... > > I wrote: > >>> The only thing required with communication is not having any doubt, or > at least overcoming doubt, that is self doubt and doubt in the other... Is > that per chance your issue?<<< > > You wrote: > >>> What I doubt is the authenticity of your supposed siddhis.<<< > > You are calling me a liar..., you may as well use those words... > > Why don't you come over and take a look... but there is a price to pay... > you will have to suspend your disbelief... > > >>> Tony had his interpretations of what he read, and you have your glorious > powers. Neither indicates jnana.<<< > > I never said I have glorious powers, my life is glorious...in all its > aspects... the whole shebang... > > I wrote: > >>>> So what you think you say about me is about you, Jody...<<< > > You wrote: > >>> Psychobabbling noted. Even if this were true, it doesn't preclude my > assessment of you from being true as well. <<< > > It does indeed not preclude it, but I tell you that it is not true. > > You wrote: > >>> I for one do not believe it.<<< > > I answered: > >>> So put me on the curb, do not even attempt to sniff the, what you call, > garbage...<<< > > You wrote: > >>> Well, as long as I see the connection made between jnana and siddhis, > I'll probably be compelled to respond.<<< > > Compelled yes, a compulsion from dualism, nothing more than that... > I only account for what happens with me, I've never set out to state or to > profess that I am a Siddha or a Jnani, a this or a that. > > I only am Wim, and I love living in all its glorious aspect, with that comes > amrita (and you know what that means). > > >>> In fact, if you really didn't have any thoughts of yourself, I'd expect > you to ignore me. That would have suited me just fine.<<< > > Why would I ignore you, I love you...Jody...and there's no thoughts in > love... > > I wrote: > >>> Or... could it be that the doubt you have about me is a mere reflection > of your own self doubt, which is really no more than a reflective replay of > someone else's doubt in your right to exist in unconditional freedom.<<< > > You wrote: > >>> Psychobabble noted <<< > > But not taken seriously... > > >> The reason I say this is because none of the jnanis I know have powers > like the ones you are describing. <<< > > I am Wim, not part of any lineage, I do not have to respond to a 'board of > professionals', I do not have or need a 'certificate of authenticity', I do > not need an OK.. > In fact I need nothing as I am not wanting... > > I wrote: > >>>> Bi-location though...yes!<<< > > You wrote: > >>>Perhaps.<<< > > No, no, no Jodi, make up your mind... put me by the curb or take me > in...unconditionally. > > >>> My problem is with powers being extolled as the result of jnana or being > associated with jnana. <<< > > I have never said such, and I will not say such, as I do not have to... > Your association of me with "Jnana OR Siddha" is totally yours... > > An integral being has no predilections... > > I wrote: > >>> By the way, do you recall that you invited me over to visit you, when I > happen to come your way... you did actually...<<< > > You wrote: > >>>That was before you started writing about your glorious powers. To tell > you the truth, I'm not so interested in meeting you now. I hope you're > aren't disappointed, but our views don't seem to have much resonance > anymore.<<< > > I had my "glorious powers" (your words) described on my website all along... > > >>> However, you are welcome to visit Kali Mandir anytime you'd like. <<< > > Of course..., I love temples... I feel at home in every one of them... > > >>> I may very well be wrong about you. <<< > > Make up your mind... it does not matter to me... > > >>> However, based on what I've come to understand about jnana, your writing > about your siddhis leads me to conclude that you've come to be identified > with them. <<< > > I never knew that there was something of a strife going on between Siddhas > and Jnanis. > Do I have to take sides? Oh Jody... > > >>> Believe it or not Wim, I love you too. <<< > > Of course I know that... > > >>> However, I cannot respect your understanding as a result of your recent > statements about your 'powers' and the experiences they supposedly bring to > your life. But even if they were real, they would still have nothing to do > with jnana.<<< > > So what, what do I care! I just am...and I love that... > > >>> But, if you have no thoughts of yourself, this shouldn't matter at all > to you. Hopefully it doesn't.<<< > > It does not, you can be sure of that... > > Love you, Jody, Wim. > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2001 Report Share Posted December 21, 2001 Dear David You wrote: >>> Hi Wim, pretty ironic that this thread is entitled 'words', huh?<<< Of course, now let me tell you about words... I can talk about for hours...it is my specialty :-) Wim david bozzi [david.bozzi] Friday, December 21, 2001 4:54 PM Re: words , "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote: > Dear Jody, > > >>> It's true that jnana is not the result of speculation. That's not why > I'm speculating. I'm speculating as to why you would babble on about your > "abilities." <<< > > You don't have to speculate, just see if there is something in it for you, > and if not... put it by the curb. But make up your mind... > > Speculators have a hard time making up their mind, that is why they are > called 'speculators' )) > They are afraid that, if they make up their mind, that they may lose a > chance... That is why speculators hardly take a chance either...They only > speculate if they should or should not take a chance. They are so cautious > that they will, as long as they keep speculating, not be regain their > freedom. When a speculator finally takes a chance...the speculation is > over...and a new 'dynamic' sets in... > > >> The conclusion I come to is that you've come to be identified with the > one who has those powers. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it does > indicate that perhaps you > haven't quite understood who you really are, imo.<<< > > You try to fit me into a Jnani or Siddha box, while I need no box at all. > YOU haven't understood who I am, that is why it is YOUR opinion. Having an > opinion will never lead to insight and clarity. > There is no way that you will have insight into me as long as you don't want > clear insight. For clear insight, you would have to take a stance, would > you? > > So, put me by the wayside, or take me in, one for all, or all for nothing... > I assure you that you don't run a risk either way. Now you are just in a > state of protraction. > Whatever I say, you will doubt and you will take yourself into a new cycle > of speculation. Doubt is your compulsion, better get sick of it... till you > stop doing it...till you don't want to afford it anymore... > I hope that I can help you getting sick of your doubt, lack of trust, > feeling that you could be duped. "Je houdt altijd een draai om de arm" or > "een slag om de hand" which are Dutch sayings expressing habitual states of > 'non-commitment'. > Commit yourself Jody, and if that means that you have to discard me or take > me in, that does not matter to me... > > Just get final clarity into "NOT what you want" as you don't know that... > but get clarity into: > what you are, > what you have and > what you take > > that you are > that you have and > that you take > > be, have and take fully, > with both hands, embracing fully... > > Whether it includes me or not, it does not make a difference, either choice > gets you into a new dynamic of freedom. > So love me or leave me. (Oh, but do not replace me with someone else, > another Tony or another Wim, that will just prolong the protraction.) > > So Jody, stop beating around the bush hoping that there is something > worthwhile to catch, while you, at the same time, wonder that, what you > might catch, might or might not dupe you. > > >>> Even if you do know who you really are, I as an individual am against > the idea that siddhis have anything to do with jnana, or that one can expect > siddhis as the result of jnana.<<< > > What do you know eh? Why don't you just ask me... Then make up your mind, > once and for all, and you doubt will be over... > > >>> The problem I have with this is that powers have nothing to do with > jnana, but everything to do with the occlusion of it.<<< > > Just ask me, Jody, apparently you cannot use yourself as a guide as you > admit that you have a problem, I don't, I know the answer. > > >>>My problem is the association of jnana with siddhis.<<< > > Yep, that is your problem !!! Why keeping it. > > >>> People come to expect "remarkable stuff" with their realization as the > result the myths that are projected into spiritual culture. <<< > > I expected nothing, that is exactly why it is so remarkable... And I tell > you, I may be remarkable... but I am not mythical. > > >>> My problem with you is that you are presently doing this projection on > the list. <<< > > Yes, you have a problem with me... I don't have a problem with me, I don't > have a problem with you... > Your staying or you going, it does not matter to me... I love you > unconditionally...It is for you to restore the unconditionality. > > So you are saying that being a jnani is conditional upon being no siddha... > or a siddha cannot be a jnani... or something like that... > Ah Jody, conditionality, conditionality... > > >>> While realization is a remarkable blessing, one of the most remarkable > things about it is the utter lack of remarkability it brings to a life. <<< > > Yes, that is why I play... > > >>> But you are free to say whatever you like. Blather on till the cows > come home about what the Buddha is telling you. I think you're fooling > yourself with it, and it has nothing to do with jnana.<<< > > I am not professing to be a jnani nor a siddha, I just am Wim who loves > whatever this is... > > >>> The reason I'm in the same vein most of the time is because I encounter > the same ignorance most of the time.<<< > > Some psychobabble: When you have just bought a new VW beetle, you see a lot > more VW beetles on the road, when you buy into ignorance you will see a lot > of it as well. > > >>> I'm just another opinion in pixels. There's no reason to present > anything other than that. This mind encounters what it deems ignorance, and > then it reacts to such. That's about all there is to me online.<<< > > Like I said, you are seeing a lot of BMW's. > > >>> This mind encounters what it deems ignorance, and then it reacts to such > <<< > > When and where did you pick up the idea that the ***mind*** deals with > ignorance? > The whole human being deals with information, which comes from conglomerates > of energy patterns, that are collected as 'knowledge points' or data. Data > that are supplied to the brain by means of parallel (identical but not the > same) energy patterns through the senses via an intricate web of nerve > structures and other support structures.. > Although we are whole integral beings, 'dualism' has erroneously made us > conceive a sharp distinction between mind and body. But there is the whole > you, JODY, with integrated infra and supra structures to supports that.... > That is you Jody, you who sits HERE, physically reading this and hopefully > poking your nose or scratching your ears... > > The kind of mind you are talking about is symptomatic of a pathology, let me > just simply call it the mind / body split, a sign of dualism . > > >>> This mind encounters what it deems ignorance, and then it reacts to > such. That's about all there is to me online.<<< > > Ah, finally, you are now getting bored, that is good, you will start hating > this ignorance so much that won't even look at it anymore... > You know what, that is the beginning of Chit, a good sign... > > I wrote: > >>> Jody, tell me, what is the use then, really?... <<< > > You wrote: > >>>The use is to present the idea that siddhis have nothing to do with > jnana, and in fact get in the way of jnana. I'll go on about this ad > nauseam. <<< > > Are you by chance PRESCRIBING what anything is... Why not just looking and > finding out, instead of fitting things into a mindless or mindful (take your > pick) mould...? > > I have only described myself because I am everyday happily surprised... When > I gave up my (as forced upon me by someone else) prescriptions and > expectations on how to be, when I surrendered my inhibitions, the integral > being unfolded... > Why don't you do the same, then we can finally play... > > I wrote: > >>> NOT THAT IT IS NEEDED to talk about myself, but hey Jody, people have > been doing it from the moment the word "I" was voiced. <<< > > You wrote: > >>> I'd speculate that there is a need, and you use this list to fulfill it. > It provides the hook for your identity as a siddha.<<< > > I am Wim, that is all... > > I wrote: > >>> You, Jody, can do with it what you want...In fact, you are doing nothing > with it... except for assessing it... Assessing food, does not make you get > the fruition and nutrition from it.<<< > > You wrote: > >>> You've not put up anything I'd consider palatable. Despite the > overwhelming quantity, I've yet to encounter any quality.<<< > > Put it by the curb then... > > I wrote: > >>> The only thing required with communication is not having any doubt, or > at least overcoming doubt, that is self doubt and doubt in the other... Is > that per chance your issue?<<< > > You wrote: > >>> What I doubt is the authenticity of your supposed siddhis.<<< > > You are calling me a liar..., you may as well use those words... > > Why don't you come over and take a look... but there is a price to pay... > you will have to suspend your disbelief... > > >>> Tony had his interpretations of what he read, and you have your glorious > powers. Neither indicates jnana.<<< > > I never said I have glorious powers, my life is glorious...in all its > aspects... the whole shebang... > > I wrote: > >>>> So what you think you say about me is about you, Jody...<<< > > You wrote: > >>> Psychobabbling noted. Even if this were true, it doesn't preclude my > assessment of you from being true as well. <<< > > It does indeed not preclude it, but I tell you that it is not true. > > You wrote: > >>> I for one do not believe it.<<< > > I answered: > >>> So put me on the curb, do not even attempt to sniff the, what you call, > garbage...<<< > > You wrote: > >>> Well, as long as I see the connection made between jnana and siddhis, > I'll probably be compelled to respond.<<< > > Compelled yes, a compulsion from dualism, nothing more than that... > I only account for what happens with me, I've never set out to state or to > profess that I am a Siddha or a Jnani, a this or a that. > > I only am Wim, and I love living in all its glorious aspect, with that comes > amrita (and you know what that means). > > >>> In fact, if you really didn't have any thoughts of yourself, I'd expect > you to ignore me. That would have suited me just fine.<<< > > Why would I ignore you, I love you...Jody...and there's no thoughts in > love... > > I wrote: > >>> Or... could it be that the doubt you have about me is a mere reflection > of your own self doubt, which is really no more than a reflective replay of > someone else's doubt in your right to exist in unconditional freedom.<<< > > You wrote: > >>> Psychobabble noted <<< > > But not taken seriously... > > >> The reason I say this is because none of the jnanis I know have powers > like the ones you are describing. <<< > > I am Wim, not part of any lineage, I do not have to respond to a 'board of > professionals', I do not have or need a 'certificate of authenticity', I do > not need an OK.. > In fact I need nothing as I am not wanting... > > I wrote: > >>>> Bi-location though...yes!<<< > > You wrote: > >>>Perhaps.<<< > > No, no, no Jodi, make up your mind... put me by the curb or take me > in...unconditionally. > > >>> My problem is with powers being extolled as the result of jnana or being > associated with jnana. <<< > > I have never said such, and I will not say such, as I do not have to... > Your association of me with "Jnana OR Siddha" is totally yours... > > An integral being has no predilections... > > I wrote: > >>> By the way, do you recall that you invited me over to visit you, when I > happen to come your way... you did actually...<<< > > You wrote: > >>>That was before you started writing about your glorious powers. To tell > you the truth, I'm not so interested in meeting you now. I hope you're > aren't disappointed, but our views don't seem to have much resonance > anymore.<<< > > I had my "glorious powers" (your words) described on my website all along... > > >>> However, you are welcome to visit Kali Mandir anytime you'd like. <<< > > Of course..., I love temples... I feel at home in every one of them... > > >>> I may very well be wrong about you. <<< > > Make up your mind... it does not matter to me... > > >>> However, based on what I've come to understand about jnana, your writing > about your siddhis leads me to conclude that you've come to be identified > with them. <<< > > I never knew that there was something of a strife going on between Siddhas > and Jnanis. > Do I have to take sides? Oh Jody... > > >>> Believe it or not Wim, I love you too. <<< > > Of course I know that... > > >>> However, I cannot respect your understanding as a result of your recent > statements about your 'powers' and the experiences they supposedly bring to > your life. But even if they were real, they would still have nothing to do > with jnana.<<< > > So what, what do I care! I just am...and I love that... > > >>> But, if you have no thoughts of yourself, this shouldn't matter at all > to you. Hopefully it doesn't.<<< > > It does not, you can be sure of that... > > Love you, Jody, Wim. > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 Hi Wim, , "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote: > Of course, now let me tell you about words... > I can talk about for hours...it is my specialty :-) An 'obsession' with words can be a 'good thing' -- then the chance of it burning out is there... otherwise, chances are slim. When the witness disappears, it becomes obvious that (for example) looking at a "cat," what's actually there has nothing whatsoever to do with a "cat" (the complex maze of concepts tied up in 3 simple letters). One sees what's actually there, not "a cat." No such thing as a "cat" ever existed. Cheers, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 Dear Wim, dear Jody, please if you could manage it somehow, stop your controversions or do it privatly but not over the list! It is so tiremsome and - I dare to say - useless! It is not very constructive. Perhaps you can find some peace in yourself! There may be such abilities like Siddhis in an Jnani, but he never make any fuss about it. I am sure Sri Ramana had a lot of them, but he always hided them and he warned agains giving too much attention to them. Love and peace Gabriele , "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote: > Dear Jody, > > >>> It's true that jnana is not the result of speculation. That's not why > I'm speculating. I'm speculating as to why you would babble on about your > "abilities." <<< > > You don't have to speculate, just see if there is something in it for you, > and if not... put it by the curb. But make up your mind... > > Speculators have a hard time making up their mind, that is why they are > called 'speculators' )) > They are afraid that, if they make up their mind, that they may lose a > chance... That is why speculators hardly take a chance either...They only > speculate if they should or should not take a chance. They are so cautious > that they will, as long as they keep speculating, not be regain their > freedom. When a speculator finally takes a chance...the speculation is > over...and a new 'dynamic' sets in... > > >> The conclusion I come to is that you've come to be identified with the > one who has those powers. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it does > indicate that perhaps you > haven't quite understood who you really are, imo.<<< > > You try to fit me into a Jnani or Siddha box, while I need no box at all. > YOU haven't understood who I am, that is why it is YOUR opinion. Having an > opinion will never lead to insight and clarity. > There is no way that you will have insight into me as long as you don't want > clear insight. For clear insight, you would have to take a stance, would > you? > > So, put me by the wayside, or take me in, one for all, or all for nothing... > I assure you that you don't run a risk either way. Now you are just in a > state of protraction. > Whatever I say, you will doubt and you will take yourself into a new cycle > of speculation. Doubt is your compulsion, better get sick of it... till you > stop doing it...till you don't want to afford it anymore... > I hope that I can help you getting sick of your doubt, lack of trust, > feeling that you could be duped. "Je houdt altijd een draai om de arm" or > "een slag om de hand" which are Dutch sayings expressing habitual states of > 'non-commitment'. > Commit yourself Jody, and if that means that you have to discard me or take > me in, that does not matter to me... > > Just get final clarity into "NOT what you want" as you don't know that... > but get clarity into: > what you are, > what you have and > what you take > > that you are > that you have and > that you take > > be, have and take fully, > with both hands, embracing fully... > > Whether it includes me or not, it does not make a difference, either choice > gets you into a new dynamic of freedom. > So love me or leave me. (Oh, but do not replace me with someone else, > another Tony or another Wim, that will just prolong the protraction.) > > So Jody, stop beating around the bush hoping that there is something > worthwhile to catch, while you, at the same time, wonder that, what you > might catch, might or might not dupe you. > > >>> Even if you do know who you really are, I as an individual am against > the idea that siddhis have anything to do with jnana, or that one can expect > siddhis as the result of jnana.<<< > > What do you know eh? Why don't you just ask me... Then make up your mind, > once and for all, and you doubt will be over... > > >>> The problem I have with this is that powers have nothing to do with > jnana, but everything to do with the occlusion of it.<<< > > Just ask me, Jody, apparently you cannot use yourself as a guide as you > admit that you have a problem, I don't, I know the answer. > > >>>My problem is the association of jnana with siddhis.<<< > > Yep, that is your problem !!! Why keeping it. > > >>> People come to expect "remarkable stuff" with their realization as the > result the myths that are projected into spiritual culture. <<< > > I expected nothing, that is exactly why it is so remarkable... And I tell > you, I may be remarkable... but I am not mythical. > > >>> My problem with you is that you are presently doing this projection on > the list. <<< > > Yes, you have a problem with me... I don't have a problem with me, I don't > have a problem with you... > Your staying or you going, it does not matter to me... I love you > unconditionally...It is for you to restore the unconditionality. > > So you are saying that being a jnani is conditional upon being no siddha... > or a siddha cannot be a jnani... or something like that... > Ah Jody, conditionality, conditionality... > > >>> While realization is a remarkable blessing, one of the most remarkable > things about it is the utter lack of remarkability it brings to a life. <<< > > Yes, that is why I play... > > >>> But you are free to say whatever you like. Blather on till the cows > come home about what the Buddha is telling you. I think you're fooling > yourself with it, and it has nothing to do with jnana.<<< > > I am not professing to be a jnani nor a siddha, I just am Wim who loves > whatever this is... > > >>> The reason I'm in the same vein most of the time is because I encounter > the same ignorance most of the time.<<< > > Some psychobabble: When you have just bought a new VW beetle, you see a lot > more VW beetles on the road, when you buy into ignorance you will see a lot > of it as well. > > >>> I'm just another opinion in pixels. There's no reason to present > anything other than that. This mind encounters what it deems ignorance, and > then it reacts to such. That's about all there is to me online.<<< > > Like I said, you are seeing a lot of BMW's. > > >>> This mind encounters what it deems ignorance, and then it reacts to such > <<< > > When and where did you pick up the idea that the ***mind*** deals with > ignorance? > The whole human being deals with information, which comes from conglomerates > of energy patterns, that are collected as 'knowledge points' or data. Data > that are supplied to the brain by means of parallel (identical but not the > same) energy patterns through the senses via an intricate web of nerve > structures and other support structures.. > Although we are whole integral beings, 'dualism' has erroneously made us > conceive a sharp distinction between mind and body. But there is the whole > you, JODY, with integrated infra and supra structures to supports that.... > That is you Jody, you who sits HERE, physically reading this and hopefully > poking your nose or scratching your ears... > > The kind of mind you are talking about is symptomatic of a pathology, let me > just simply call it the mind / body split, a sign of dualism . > > >>> This mind encounters what it deems ignorance, and then it reacts to > such. That's about all there is to me online.<<< > > Ah, finally, you are now getting bored, that is good, you will start hating > this ignorance so much that won't even look at it anymore... > You know what, that is the beginning of Chit, a good sign... > > I wrote: > >>> Jody, tell me, what is the use then, really?... <<< > > You wrote: > >>>The use is to present the idea that siddhis have nothing to do with > jnana, and in fact get in the way of jnana. I'll go on about this ad > nauseam. <<< > > Are you by chance PRESCRIBING what anything is... Why not just looking and > finding out, instead of fitting things into a mindless or mindful (take your > pick) mould...? > > I have only described myself because I am everyday happily surprised... When > I gave up my (as forced upon me by someone else) prescriptions and > expectations on how to be, when I surrendered my inhibitions, the integral > being unfolded... > Why don't you do the same, then we can finally play... > > I wrote: > >>> NOT THAT IT IS NEEDED to talk about myself, but hey Jody, people have > been doing it from the moment the word "I" was voiced. <<< > > You wrote: > >>> I'd speculate that there is a need, and you use this list to fulfill it. > It provides the hook for your identity as a siddha.<<< > > I am Wim, that is all... > > I wrote: > >>> You, Jody, can do with it what you want...In fact, you are doing nothing > with it... except for assessing it... Assessing food, does not make you get > the fruition and nutrition from it.<<< > > You wrote: > >>> You've not put up anything I'd consider palatable. Despite the > overwhelming quantity, I've yet to encounter any quality.<<< > > Put it by the curb then... > > I wrote: > >>> The only thing required with communication is not having any doubt, or > at least overcoming doubt, that is self doubt and doubt in the other... Is > that per chance your issue?<<< > > You wrote: > >>> What I doubt is the authenticity of your supposed siddhis.<<< > > You are calling me a liar..., you may as well use those words... > > Why don't you come over and take a look... but there is a price to pay... > you will have to suspend your disbelief... > > >>> Tony had his interpretations of what he read, and you have your glorious > powers. Neither indicates jnana.<<< > > I never said I have glorious powers, my life is glorious...in all its > aspects... the whole shebang... > > I wrote: > >>>> So what you think you say about me is about you, Jody...<<< > > You wrote: > >>> Psychobabbling noted. Even if this were true, it doesn't preclude my > assessment of you from being true as well. <<< > > It does indeed not preclude it, but I tell you that it is not true. > > You wrote: > >>> I for one do not believe it.<<< > > I answered: > >>> So put me on the curb, do not even attempt to sniff the, what you call, > garbage...<<< > > You wrote: > >>> Well, as long as I see the connection made between jnana and siddhis, > I'll probably be compelled to respond.<<< > > Compelled yes, a compulsion from dualism, nothing more than that... > I only account for what happens with me, I've never set out to state or to > profess that I am a Siddha or a Jnani, a this or a that. > > I only am Wim, and I love living in all its glorious aspect, with that comes > amrita (and you know what that means). > > >>> In fact, if you really didn't have any thoughts of yourself, I'd expect > you to ignore me. That would have suited me just fine.<<< > > Why would I ignore you, I love you...Jody...and there's no thoughts in > love... > > I wrote: > >>> Or... could it be that the doubt you have about me is a mere reflection > of your own self doubt, which is really no more than a reflective replay of > someone else's doubt in your right to exist in unconditional freedom.<<< > > You wrote: > >>> Psychobabble noted <<< > > But not taken seriously... > > >> The reason I say this is because none of the jnanis I know have powers > like the ones you are describing. <<< > > I am Wim, not part of any lineage, I do not have to respond to a 'board of > professionals', I do not have or need a 'certificate of authenticity', I do > not need an OK.. > In fact I need nothing as I am not wanting... > > I wrote: > >>>> Bi-location though...yes!<<< > > You wrote: > >>>Perhaps.<<< > > No, no, no Jodi, make up your mind... put me by the curb or take me > in...unconditionally. > > >>> My problem is with powers being extolled as the result of jnana or being > associated with jnana. <<< > > I have never said such, and I will not say such, as I do not have to... > Your association of me with "Jnana OR Siddha" is totally yours... > > An integral being has no predilections... > > I wrote: > >>> By the way, do you recall that you invited me over to visit you, when I > happen to come your way... you did actually...<<< > > You wrote: > >>>That was before you started writing about your glorious powers. To tell > you the truth, I'm not so interested in meeting you now. I hope you're > aren't disappointed, but our views don't seem to have much resonance > anymore.<<< > > I had my "glorious powers" (your words) described on my website all along... > > >>> However, you are welcome to visit Kali Mandir anytime you'd like. <<< > > Of course..., I love temples... I feel at home in every one of them... > > >>> I may very well be wrong about you. <<< > > Make up your mind... it does not matter to me... > > >>> However, based on what I've come to understand about jnana, your writing > about your siddhis leads me to conclude that you've come to be identified > with them. <<< > > I never knew that there was something of a strife going on between Siddhas > and Jnanis. > Do I have to take sides? Oh Jody... > > >>> Believe it or not Wim, I love you too. <<< > > Of course I know that... > > >>> However, I cannot respect your understanding as a result of your recent > statements about your 'powers' and the experiences they supposedly bring to > your life. But even if they were real, they would still have nothing to do > with jnana.<<< > > So what, what do I care! I just am...and I love that... > > >>> But, if you have no thoughts of yourself, this shouldn't matter at all > to you. Hopefully it doesn't.<<< > > It does not, you can be sure of that... > > Love you, Jody, Wim. > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 Hi my dear Tim, You wrote: >>> :-) An 'obsession' with words can be a 'good thing' -- then the chance of it burning out is there... otherwise, chances are slim. I appreciate your very kind words, those are not just words... you mean a lot... You mean a lot to me... And as we all know, words ARE NOT just words, they bear witness of an immense richness... No one owns words, we can use them freely, words are free currency, an easier currency than money. Words are a reflection of our common heritage of wisdom and riches. As for me... For me words are not just collections of scribbled engravings, graphs, digits, bits, binary digits composed of ciphers (zeroes) and ones.... For me a single word open up an immense landscape of history..., sometimes the whole universe... and sometimes I just have a tiny peek.. Last night I spent the whole night on just : "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was god..." (John's Gospel) I heard the original incantation in the original voices... I even recorded it... Am I inspired? Yes, and the breath of God, if I may say it that way, makes me savour every sound... In every word I sense the whole universe... and I bear witness of it... that is what a visionary does...and I tell you about it... that is what a prophet does... And one may or may not hear it... >>> then the chance of it burning out is there... otherwise, chances are slim.<<< Burn out, no, not ever... we can burn books... but not words... :-) The only thing we can do to words is to pretend that we don't hear them, but even forgetting does not obliterate a single sound of a single word. Love you, Tim, very much, Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 Dear Gabriele... You wrote: >>>Dear Wim, dear Jody, please if you could manage it somehow, stop your controversions or do it privatly but not over the list! It is so tiremsome and - I dare to say - useless<<< If it does not suit you, Gabriele... do not read it, you are very welcome to that... there is the delete button Many list members actually tell me to keep this on list... If it bores you, that is OK with me... >>>Perhaps you can find some peace in yourself! <<< I'm not wanting... :-) Believe me, really not, >>>There may be such abilities like Siddhis in an Jnani, but he never make any fuss about it.<<< I'm not ashamed of that what I am... I don't fuss, I just write about 'them abilities', others may have trouble acknowledging that... but that is not my problem... I write about what I have, to remind others of their own inner (maybe hidden) richness... and many write me back that they have ... or that they re-discovered through my writing that they do have that wonderful richness...of being the human divine. That it affronts others... well I won't and cannot stop them from being affronted... and I cannot stop myself being that I am ... >>> I am sure Sri Ramana had a lot of them, but he always hided them and he warned agains giving too much attention to them. <<< That is Ramana, this is Wim and we know each other intimately... Love you, Gabriele, Wim. (Shall I explain what your name means... you want the full story?) (Shall I explain what 'jnani' means, what 'sage' means, what 'chit' means... what homo 'sapiens' means... what 'sapientia' means, 'wisdom' (Shall I tell you how it all started, way back when... You know what... nectar is involved...) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:28:10 -0800 "Wim Borsboom" <wim writes: > Dear David > > You wrote: > >>> Hi Wim, pretty ironic that this thread is entitled 'words', > huh?<<< > > Of course, now let me tell you about words... As if anyone could stop you? > I can talk about for hours...it is my specialty :-) Obviously. > > Wim > > > [mucho snippage] > > --- http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:59:43 -0800 "Wim Borsboom" <wim writes: > Hi there, my dear Bruce, Hello, Wim. > > You wrote: > >>> Frankly, I admire > him [Jody] for actually wading > through Wim's verbosity > in order to reply to it! <<< > > I do too :-) As well you should, sir! > > Love you, Bruce, Wim Right back atcha! > > PS > For hip waders, > http://www.shopoutdoors.com/hodgman.html > http:www.hip_waders.com > Excellent link, thanks! > > --- http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 Hello everyone, Just checking briefly on the web. The Executive Board of fully supports Gabriel's perspective. Occassional discussion of Siddhis is fine and normal on the yogic paths. Those who wish to speak of Siddis, their own and that of others and so on, should find other outlets for their interestes. Bhagavan Ramana's simple statement, "Self-Realization is the only True Siddhi" is very straight forward and leaves no room for misinterpretations. Love to all Harsha , "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > Dear Wim, > It is not so much the question if it suits me or not, because - as you say - > there is always the delete- or the scroll-bottom. It is more the question if > it suits the majority or a large number on the list. But if it is really as > you say, that many list members tell you to keep this on list - not only > your statements about yourself, which is one thing, but also your > controversions with others, which is another - then I will draw back my > request and have to respect this. > > My statement about Siddhis and Jnana was meant in a general way. This is > only what I can see in Sri Ramana's life. He is my Guru and I hold on this. > I don't dare to judge what you are saying about Siddhis, because I am not > interested in them. It is not so much a question having some problems with > acknowledging, it is more a question to what I give my attention. > > Love > Gabriele > > > > - > "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> > <g.ebert@g...> > Saturday, December 22, 2001 7:03 PM > Fwd: RE: Re: words > > > > , "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote: > > Dear Gabriele... > > > > You wrote: > > >>>Dear Wim, dear Jody, please if you could manage it somehow, stop > > your > > controversions or do it privatly but not over the list! It is so > > tiremsome > > and - I dare to say - useless<<< > > > > If it does not suit you, Gabriele... do not read it, you are very > > welcome to > > that... there is the delete button > > > > Many list members actually tell me to keep this on list... If it > > bores you, > > that is OK with me... > > > > >>>Perhaps you can find some peace in yourself! <<< > > > > I'm not wanting... :-) > > Believe me, really not, > > > > >>>There may be such abilities like Siddhis in an Jnani, but he never > > make > > any fuss about it.<<< > > > > I'm not ashamed of that what I am... I don't fuss, I just write > > about 'them > > abilities', others may have trouble acknowledging that... but that is > > not my > > problem... I write about what I have, to remind others of their own > > inner > > (maybe hidden) richness... and many write me back that they have ... > > or that > > they re-discovered through my writing that they do have that wonderful > > richness...of being the human divine. > > > > That it affronts others... well I won't and cannot stop them from > > being > > affronted... and I cannot stop myself being that I am ... > > > > >>> I am sure Sri Ramana had a lot of them, but he always hided them > > and he > > warned agains giving too much attention to them. <<< > > That is Ramana, this is Wim and we know each other intimately... > > > > Love you, Gabriele, Wim. > > > > (Shall I explain what your name means... you want the full story?) > > (Shall I explain what 'jnani' means, what 'sage' means, what 'chit' > > means... > > what homo 'sapiens' means... what 'sapientia' means, 'wisdom' > > (Shall I tell you how it all started, way back when... You know > > what... > > nectar is involved...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2001 Report Share Posted December 22, 2001 Hello everyone, Just checking briefly on the web. The Executive Board of fully supports Gabriel's perspective. Ocassional discussion of Siddhis is fine and normal on the yogic paths. However, those who have a need or wish to speak of Siddhis often, their own and that of others and so on, should find other outlets for their interestes. Bhagavan Ramana's simple statement, "Self-Realization is the only True Siddhi" is very straight forward and leaves no room for misinterpretations. Love to all Harsha , "harshaimtm" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote: > Hello everyone, > > Just checking briefly on the web. The Executive Board of > fully supports Gabriel's perspective. Occassional > discussion of Siddhis is fine and normal on the yogic paths. Those > who wish to speak of Siddis, their own and that of others and so on, > should find other outlets for their interestes. > > Bhagavan Ramana's simple statement, "Self-Realization is the only > True Siddhi" is very straight forward and leaves no room for > misinterpretations. > > Love to all > Harsha > > > > , "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > > Dear Wim, > > It is not so much the question if it suits me or not, because - as > you say - > > there is always the delete- or the scroll-bottom. It is more the > question if > > it suits the majority or a large number on the list. But if it is > really as > > you say, that many list members tell you to keep this on list - not > only > > your statements about yourself, which is one thing, but also your > > controversions with others, which is another - then I will draw > back my > > request and have to respect this. > > > > My statement about Siddhis and Jnana was meant in a general way. > This is > > only what I can see in Sri Ramana's life. He is my Guru and I hold > on this. > > I don't dare to judge what you are saying about Siddhis, because I > am not > > interested in them. It is not so much a question having some > problems with > > acknowledging, it is more a question to what I give my attention. > > > > Love > > Gabriele > > > > > > > > - > > "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> > > <g.ebert@g...> > > Saturday, December 22, 2001 7:03 PM > > Fwd: RE: Re: words > > > > > > > , "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote: > > > Dear Gabriele... > > > > > > You wrote: > > > >>>Dear Wim, dear Jody, please if you could manage it somehow, > stop > > > your > > > controversions or do it privatly but not over the list! It is so > > > tiremsome > > > and - I dare to say - useless<<< > > > > > > If it does not suit you, Gabriele... do not read it, you are very > > > welcome to > > > that... there is the delete button > > > > > > Many list members actually tell me to keep this on list... If it > > > bores you, > > > that is OK with me... > > > > > > >>>Perhaps you can find some peace in yourself! <<< > > > > > > I'm not wanting... :-) > > > Believe me, really not, > > > > > > >>>There may be such abilities like Siddhis in an Jnani, but he > never > > > make > > > any fuss about it.<<< > > > > > > I'm not ashamed of that what I am... I don't fuss, I just write > > > about 'them > > > abilities', others may have trouble acknowledging that... but > that is > > > not my > > > problem... I write about what I have, to remind others of their > own > > > inner > > > (maybe hidden) richness... and many write me back that they > have ... > > > or that > > > they re-discovered through my writing that they do have that > wonderful > > > richness...of being the human divine. > > > > > > That it affronts others... well I won't and cannot stop them from > > > being > > > affronted... and I cannot stop myself being that I am ... > > > > > > >>> I am sure Sri Ramana had a lot of them, but he always hided > them > > > and he > > > warned agains giving too much attention to them. <<< > > > That is Ramana, this is Wim and we know each other intimately... > > > > > > Love you, Gabriele, Wim. > > > > > > (Shall I explain what your name means... you want the full story?) > > > (Shall I explain what 'jnani' means, what 'sage' means, > what 'chit' > > > means... > > > what homo 'sapiens' means... what 'sapientia' means, 'wisdom' > > > (Shall I tell you how it all started, way back when... You know > > > what... > > > nectar is involved...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2001 Report Share Posted December 23, 2001 Hi Wim, , "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote: > (Shall I explain what your name means... you want the full story?) > (Shall I explain what 'jnani' means, what 'sage' means, what 'chit' > means... what homo 'sapiens' means... what 'sapientia' > means, 'wisdom'(Shall I tell you how it all started, way back > when... You know what... nectar is involved...) The dictionary is available to all here,,, encyclopedic volumes compiled over hundreds of years, explaining the meanings of all of the above... If you can do better than the dictionary definitions, vedas, upanishads, ad infinitum then by all means -- otherwise, the option is available to look everything up for anyone who's interested. Peace, Tim P.S... bees like nectar too apparently... i used to eat raw bee pollen, it could be possible to survive only on that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2001 Report Share Posted December 23, 2001 Dear Tim, You wrote: >>> ...The dictionary is available to all here,,, encyclopedic volumes compiled over hundreds of years, explaining the meanings of all of the above...If you can do better than the dictionary definitions, vedas, upanishads, ad infinitum then by all means ... <<< I may at some point start with 'sage' and 'sapiens', which has to do with 'an old sap'. (Is that a foolish gullible person or a pejorative for 'wise guy'?) It also has to do with a ancient taste for a good brew, a new stew and a new medicinal herb...(no not 'sage' or 'salvia'). Remember that in my Adam story I spoke of this "wise guy" http://www.aurasphere.org/Kundalini%20Posts/Visions almost half way through the last section. I could fill out that character quite well, as it is a fascinating story. You won't find any of that in any dictionary... But I will at some point paint the picture... It will lead us back to the Indus valley and a being now called 'Proto Shiva', it is indeed Pre-Vedic. You can also come to my demonstrations... Where you can actually see the story in action. >>>...bees like nectar too apparently... i used to eat raw bee pollen, it could be possible to survive only on that... <<< I did at some point survive just on honey and butter... but this is a reference to nectar, or amrita...and... a type of quince tree. Love you, Tim, Wim. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2001 Report Share Posted December 23, 2001 My dearest Harsha, I have read the preamble to again, and again... and every time I read it, I feel very welcome... Now what about your recent statement? >>> The Executive Board of fully supports Gabriel's perspective. Ocassional discussion of Siddhis is fine and normal on the yogic paths. However, those who have a need or wish to speak of Siddhis often, their own and that of others and so on, should find other outlets for their interestes.<<< Hmmm? >>> Bhagavan Ramana's simple statement, "Self-Realization is the only True Siddhi" is very straight forward and leaves no room for misinterpretations. <<< I sense a slight misinterpretation of what Self-Realization is, especially as it appears that some kind of hidden condition or limitation is attached to it. I also sense a misinterpretation of what Siddhi is... What DID Ramana say when he said, "Self-Realization is the only True Siddhi." Lower down is a lexicographic list of meanings of 'Siddhi'. This may help us to understand what Ramana meant, not what the followers of certain social factions may have understood. I did not know that there was some kind of distinction on this list as to the acceptance of being 'jnani' or 'siddha', in the sense that the siddha aspect is precluded, not permitted or at least being frowned upon. Being Jnani does not exclude being Siddha! How do I know? Because I do not notice that it is excluded from fullness of being (THAT I AM) ! Self-Realization is absolutely real, 'absolutely' meaning absolved from anything false. Self-Realization comes with AND arises from absolute unconditionalty, fullness of being. There is no room for dualist distinctions. In fact any dualist distinction would prevent fullness of being. Have I landed here on the tail-end of some Southern India 'tribal' issue, camps of opinion; factions, left-overs from socio-political strifes that are quite indicative of the cultural period and the political history and landscape of liberation (moksha) that Ramana was living in...? Maybe we ought to look at this more honestly, daringly and... radically ! How much of a politico-social ingredient is still playing here...? An ingredient that definitely has nothing to do with Self-Realization. Many years ago (around 1971) I was quite aware of this, I studied the social, political and cultural backgrounds in the history of liberation (Moksha) quite intensively. No need to get into detail... But the fights between camps was quite vicious, not necessarily vicious in a physical way (which it was as well..., there were shootings, stabbings) but definitely in a judgemental way... I was always under the impression that this historical period was transcended in this Satsangh, Harsha, or at least left behind... When I read 's preamble the very first time, I was so happy to see that we were definitely getting somewhere... into a freer state of being. Harsha, on what track are we here now, what has snuck back in here...? What is this moksha then...? Is it NOT freedom from all conditionality? Is it NOT being free within all conditions? I am that I am... and fullness of being does not include any expectations or prescriptions... nor preclusions! What are these things then that I write about, these things that some people call siddhis, which I, according to Western tradition, call gifts. Let's find out what 'siddhi' really means. Maybe we can use the word again, but now without getting into this unseemly disagreeable stuff. Why is there this great need to deny someone else's fullness of being, why should someone display doubts about someone's integrity just because of the mention of a word with a loaded meaning! Maybe, only and just because, at some point in the past, there were historical, political, social and class misunderstandings over this...? When you look at the real meaning of the word siddhi, it may become more evident what I am trying to say. The following is from the "Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon" from SIDDHI Meaning 2 f. (for 1. see p. 1215 , col. 1) accomplishment , performance , fulfilment , complete attainment (of any object) , success MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; the hitting of a mark (loc.) Ka1m. ; healing (of a disease) , cure by (comp.) Ya1jn5. ; coming into force , validity ib. ; settlement , payment , liquidation (of a debt) Mn. viii , 47 ; establishment , substantiation , settlement , demonstration , proof. indisputable conclusion , result , issue RPra1t. Up. Sarvad. ; decision , adjudication , determination (of a lawsuit) W. ; solution of a problem ib. ; preparation , cooking , maturing , maturity ib. ; readiness W. ; prosperity , personal success , fortune , good luck , advantage Mn. MBh. &c. ; supreme felicity , bliss , beatitude , complete sanctification (by penance &c.) , final emancipation , perfection L. ; vanishing , making one's self invisible W. ; a magical shoe (supposed to convey the wearer wherever he likes) ib. ; the acquisition of supernatural powers by magical means or the supñsupposed faculty so acquired (the eight usually enumerated are given in the following Sloka , %{aNimA} %{laghimA@prA7ptiH@prAkAmyam@mahimA@tathA@IzitvaM@ca@vazitvaM@ca@tathA@kAmA7 vasAyitA} [1216,3] ; sometimes 26 are added e.g. %{dUra-zravaNa} , %{sarvajJa-tva} , %{agni-stambha} &c.) Sa1m2khyak. Tattvas. Sarvad. ; any unusual skill or faculty or capability (often in comp.) Pan5cat. Katha1s. ; skill in general , dexterity , art Car. ; efficacy , efficiency Ka1v. Pan5cat. ; understanding , intellect W. ; becoming clear or intelligible (as sounds or words) BhP. ; (in rhet.) the pointing out in the same person of various good qualities (not usually united) Sa1h. ; (prob.) a work of art Ra1jat. iii , 381 ; a kind of medicinal root (= %{Rddhi} or %{vRddhi}) L. ; (in music) a partic. S3ruti Sam2gi1t. ; a partic. Yoga (either the 16th or 19th) Col. ; Success or Perfection personified MBh. VarBr2S. ; N. of Durga1 Katha1s. ; of a daughter of Daksha and wife of Dharma Pur. ; of the wife of Bhaga and mother of Mahiman BhP. ; of a friend of Danu Katha1s. ; of one of the wives of Gan2e7s3a RTL. 215 , 2 ; N. of S3iva (in this sense m.) MBh. I find the entry "the hitting of a mark", quite telling as it is the opposite of "missing the mark" which expression we often use in the West to define "sin". Sure, in the above list there is also the reference to a well known sloka hinting at supernatural powers brought on by magical means. I assure you such "supernatural magical powers" are not what I have alluded to in my description of gifts. I find that the entry "final emancipation" hits the mark right on... and... it also concurs fully with Ramana's understanding. With this final emancipation, moksha, liberation, or freedom come 'gifts', as the impediments to full being are being dropped. Do you think that I had a choice in receiving those gifts? Could I have said "no thank you, I don't trust this"? It does not go that way... Am I not to live in gratitude for being graced by them? Should I not bear witness of the fullness of being? Do I have to defend that 'freedom in fullness' or shall I just speak from it at liberty and in freedom? Am I to defend this innate and authentic freedom or shall I suggest to others to speak from freedom, instead of from limiting motivations. Am I to live according to expectations of what others think I ought to display when I live free? (When those others admit not to have the experience?) These gifts come forth from a bottomless source of abundance, benevolent to the utmost, "een hoorn des overvloeds", a cornucopia (praputa) of benefices. Shall I return them to sender or send them on to others... As if that is a choice... .. I have not chosen this, I am daily surprised... I am on the receiving end, living in grace and gratitude... Is it not the greatest siddhi to be a human being, and being divine at that? Love you, Harsha, Wim. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2001 Report Share Posted December 23, 2001 My dearest Harsha, I have read the preamble to again, and again... and every time I read it, I feel very welcome... Now what about your recent statement? >>> The Executive Board of fully supports Gabriel's perspective. Ocassional discussion of Siddhis is fine and normal on the yogic paths. However, those who have a need or wish to speak of Siddhis often, their own and that of others and so on, should find other outlets for their interestes.<<< Hmmm? >>> Bhagavan Ramana's simple statement, "Self-Realization is the only True Siddhi" is very straight forward and leaves no room for misinterpretations. <<< I sense a slight misinterpretation of what Self-Realization is, especially as it appears that some kind of hidden condition or limitation is attached to it. I also sense a misinterpretation of what Siddhi is... What DID Ramana say when he said, "Self-Realization is the only True Siddhi." Lower down is a lexicographic list of meanings of 'Siddhi'. This may help us to understand what Ramana meant, not what the followers of certain social factions may have understood. I did not know that there was some kind of distinction on this list as to the acceptance of being 'jnani' or 'siddha', in the sense that the siddha aspect is precluded, not permitted or at least being frowned upon. Being Jnani does not exclude being Siddha! How do I know? Because I do not notice that it is excluded from fullness of being (THAT I AM) ! Self-Realization is absolutely real, 'absolutely' meaning absolved from anything false. Self-Realization comes with AND arises from absolute unconditionalty, fullness of being. There is no room for dualist distinctions. In fact any dualist distinction would prevent fullness of being. Have I landed here on the tail-end of some Southern India 'tribal' issue, camps of opinion; factions, left-overs from socio-political strifes that are quite indicative of the cultural period and the political history and landscape of liberation (moksha) that Ramana was living in...? Maybe we ought to look at this more honestly, daringly and... radically ! How much of a politico-social ingredient is still playing here...? An ingredient that definitely has nothing to do with Self-Realization. Many years ago (around 1971) I was quite aware of this, I studied the social, political and cultural backgrounds in the history of liberation (Moksha) quite intensively. No need to get into detail... But the fights between camps was quite vicious, not necessarily vicious in a physical way (which it was as well..., there were shootings, stabbings) but definitely in a judgemental way... I was always under the impression that this historical period was transcended in this Satsangh, Harsha, or at least left behind... When I read 's preamble the very first time, I was so happy to see that we were definitely getting somewhere... into a freer state of being. Harsha, on what track are we here now, what has snuck back in here...? What is this moksha then...? Is it NOT freedom from all conditionality? Is it NOT being free within all conditions? I am that I am... and fullness of being does not include any expectations or prescriptions... nor preclusions! What are these things then that I write about, these things that some people call siddhis, which I, according to Western tradition, call gifts. Let's find out what 'siddhi' really means. Maybe we can use the word again, but now without getting into this unseemly disagreeable stuff. Why is there this great need to deny someone else's fullness of being, why should someone display doubts about someone's integrity just because of the mention of a word with a loaded meaning! Maybe, only and just because, at some point in the past, there were historical, political, social and class misunderstandings over this...? When you look at the real meaning of the word siddhi, it may become more evident what I am trying to say. The following is from the "Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon" from SIDDHI Meaning 2 f. (for 1. see p. 1215 , col. 1) accomplishment , performance , fulfilment , complete attainment (of any object) , success MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; the hitting of a mark (loc.) Ka1m. ; healing (of a disease) , cure by (comp.) Ya1jn5. ; coming into force , validity ib. ; settlement , payment , liquidation (of a debt) Mn. viii , 47 ; establishment , substantiation , settlement , demonstration , proof. indisputable conclusion , result , issue RPra1t. Up. Sarvad. ; decision , adjudication , determination (of a lawsuit) W. ; solution of a problem ib. ; preparation , cooking , maturing , maturity ib. ; readiness W. ; prosperity , personal success , fortune , good luck , advantage Mn. MBh. &c. ; supreme felicity , bliss , beatitude , complete sanctification (by penance &c.) , final emancipation , perfection L. ; vanishing , making one's self invisible W. ; a magical shoe (supposed to convey the wearer wherever he likes) ib. ; the acquisition of supernatural powers by magical means or the supñsupposed faculty so acquired (the eight usually enumerated are given in the following Sloka , %{aNimA} %{laghimA@prA7ptiH@prAkAmyam@mahimA@tathA@IzitvaM@ca@vazitvaM@ca@tathA@kAmA7 vasAyitA} [1216,3] ; sometimes 26 are added e.g. %{dUra-zravaNa} , %{sarvajJa-tva} , %{agni-stambha} &c.) Sa1m2khyak. Tattvas. Sarvad. ; any unusual skill or faculty or capability (often in comp.) Pan5cat. Katha1s. ; skill in general , dexterity , art Car. ; efficacy , efficiency Ka1v. Pan5cat. ; understanding , intellect W. ; becoming clear or intelligible (as sounds or words) BhP. ; (in rhet.) the pointing out in the same person of various good qualities (not usually united) Sa1h. ; (prob.) a work of art Ra1jat. iii , 381 ; a kind of medicinal root (= %{Rddhi} or %{vRddhi}) L. ; (in music) a partic. S3ruti Sam2gi1t. ; a partic. Yoga (either the 16th or 19th) Col. ; Success or Perfection personified MBh. VarBr2S. ; N. of Durga1 Katha1s. ; of a daughter of Daksha and wife of Dharma Pur. ; of the wife of Bhaga and mother of Mahiman BhP. ; of a friend of Danu Katha1s. ; of one of the wives of Gan2e7s3a RTL. 215 , 2 ; N. of S3iva (in this sense m.) MBh. I find the entry "the hitting of a mark", quite telling as it is the opposite of "missing the mark" which expression we often use in the West to define "sin". Sure, in the above list there is also the reference to a well known sloka hinting at supernatural powers brought on by magical means. I assure you such "supernatural magical powers" are not what I have alluded to in my description of gifts. I find that the entry "final emancipation" hits the mark right on... and... it also concurs fully with Ramana's understanding. With this final emancipation, moksha, liberation, or freedom come 'gifts', as the impediments to full being are being dropped. Do you think that I had a choice in receiving those gifts? Could I have said "no thank you, I don't trust this"? It does not go that way... Am I not to live in gratitude for being graced by them? Should I not bear witness of the fullness of being? Do I have to defend that 'freedom in fullness' or shall I just speak from it at liberty and in freedom? Am I to defend this innate and authentic freedom or shall I suggest to others to speak from freedom, instead of from limiting motivations. Am I to live according to expectations of what others think I ought to display when I live free? (When those others admit not to have the experience?) These gifts come forth from a bottomless source of abundance, benevolent to the utmost, "een hoorn des overvloeds", a cornucopia (praputa) of benefices. Shall I return them to sender or send them on to others... As if that is a choice... .. I have not chosen this, I am daily surprised... I am on the receiving end, living in grace and gratitude... Is it not the greatest siddhi to be a human being, and being divine at that? Love you, Harsha, Wim. Wim.... Sweet Heart... I love you, but please shut up for awhile. You're exhausting me! With Much Love, xxxtg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2001 Report Share Posted December 23, 2001 leteegee (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: Wim.... Sweet Heart... I love you, but please shut up for awhile. You're exhausting me! I have a blister on my 'scroll' finger. Hey, did anyone see the post where Wim actually got Bruce to snip? Says even more than one of Wim's posts. Love you too Wim, Playfully, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.