Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 Devaraja Mudaliar wrote:"Sometimes I used to console myself with thinking:'Perhaps one day I shall suddenly find myself a completely changed man.'And in that mood I asked Bhagavan whether improvement in a man's spiritualcondition comes about gradually and by degrees or bursts forth all of a sudden one day.Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan replied:'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'"(Devaraja Mudaliar: My Recollections, p. 30) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 , "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan replied: > 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, > does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" A nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. Can darkness be said to have substance? Love, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 On 12/19/01 at 8:50 PM fewtch wrote: º, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: º º> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan replied: º> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, º> does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" º ºA nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. Can ºdarkness be said to have substance? º ºLove, º ºTim The question can be read, when entering a cave with a burning torch, if it becomes gradually or suddenly visible. Of course there is a perspective, that both is possible, but not simultaneously. On entering the wide section of a conical cave, it will be barely visible but by continuing to walk, the amount of light/square foot increases - so gradually, it becomes visible. On entering a cylindrical cave, it becomes visible at once and doesn't change. As a former colleague was an amateur speleologist, i know the 2 types of caves to exist... Laughingly, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 Dear Tim, such is the freedom of a real great master and teacher, to answer according to the need of the questioner. I suppose Devaraja Mudaliar in his situation, as his question shows, was in need of a picture to explain how realisation might happen. Sri Ramana often told in such pictures and parables- as Jesus did. They have their own beauty. Of course he could have answered: there is no realisation to attain at all, because it is already there. And there is no darkness to vanish because there is no darkness at all. Such answers were also given by him, if the questioner was ready for them. Or he gave no verbal answer at all but a smile or a look in silence. If darkness has a substance or not - that's not the point here. Gabriele Message: 20 Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:50:05 -0000 "fewtch" <coresite (AT) home (DOT) com>Re: Does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote:> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan replied:> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, > does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'"A nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. Can darkness be said to have substance?Love,Tim Message: 9 Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:48:27 +0100 "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert (AT) gmx (DOT) de>Does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?Devaraja Mudaliar wrote:"Sometimes I used to console myself with thinking:'Perhaps one day I shall suddenly find myself a completely changed man.'And in that mood I asked Bhagavan whether improvement in a man's spiritualcondition comes about gradually and by degrees or bursts forth all of a sudden one day.Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan replied:'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'"(Devaraja Mudaliar: My Recollections, p. 30) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 Very interesting, but not meant by Sri Ramana , "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: > On 12/19/01 at 8:50 PM fewtch wrote: > > º, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > º > º> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan replied: > º> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, > º> does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" > º > ºA nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. Can > ºdarkness be said to have substance? > º > ºLove, > º > ºTim > > The question can be read, when entering a cave with a burning torch, if > it becomes gradually or suddenly visible. Of course there is a perspective, > that both is possible, but not simultaneously. On entering the wide section > of a conical cave, it will be barely visible but by continuing to walk, the amount > of light/square foot increases - so gradually, it becomes visible. > On entering a cylindrical cave, it becomes visible at once and doesn't change. > As a former colleague was an amateur speleologist, i know the 2 types of caves > to exist... > > Laughingly, > Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 On 12/19/01 at 11:29 PM gabriele_ebert wrote: ºVery interesting, but not meant by Sri Ramana Walls with 100% absorption will not show a cave at all, even if the torch was as bright as the sun. º º, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: º> On 12/19/01 at 8:50 PM fewtch wrote: º> º> º, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: º> º º> º> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan ºreplied: º> º> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, º> º> does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" º> º º> ºA nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. ºCan º> ºdarkness be said to have substance? º> º º> ºLove, º> º º> ºTim º> º> The question can be read, when entering a cave with a burning ºtorch, if º> it becomes gradually or suddenly visible. Of course there is a ºperspective, º> that both is possible, but not simultaneously. On entering the wide ºsection º> of a conical cave, it will be barely visible but by continuing to ºwalk, the amount º> of light/square foot increases - so gradually, it becomes visible. º> On entering a cylindrical cave, it becomes visible at once and ºdoesn't change. º> As a former colleague was an amateur speleologist, i know the 2 ºtypes of caves º> to exist... º> º> Laughingly, º> Jan º º º º/join º º º º º ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome ºall to a. º º º ºYour use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2001 Report Share Posted December 20, 2001 Dear Jan, That about 100 % absorption is so true, my father demonstrated that at the University in Delft, Holland where he worked. By the way, it counts for sound as well...although the room has to also be a vacuum and different laws of physics are involved. He helped build both such rooms... He also made the world's smallest quartz sphere ever... by hand. It was totally 'useless', except that it made him proud. Some quartz lenses he made are still circling the globe... He was a remarkable man... though not many knew him... Through these lenses he helped NASA to be able to see everything and everyone in very fine detail from quite a distance... (Huygens and Van Leeuwenhoeck were his models and heroes.) My father was as special as my mother... Love, Wim (I could not have been be without them) jb [kvy9] Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:45 PM Re: Re: Does the darkness vanish gradually or at once? On 12/19/01 at 11:29 PM gabriele_ebert wrote: ºVery interesting, but not meant by Sri Ramana Walls with 100% absorption will not show a cave at all, even if the torch was as bright as the sun. º º, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: º> On 12/19/01 at 8:50 PM fewtch wrote: º> º> º, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: º> º º> º> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan ºreplied: º> º> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, º> º> does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" º> º º> ºA nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. ºCan º> ºdarkness be said to have substance? º> º º> ºLove, º> º º> ºTim º> º> The question can be read, when entering a cave with a burning ºtorch, if º> it becomes gradually or suddenly visible. Of course there is a ºperspective, º> that both is possible, but not simultaneously. On entering the wide ºsection º> of a conical cave, it will be barely visible but by continuing to ºwalk, the amount º> of light/square foot increases - so gradually, it becomes visible. º> On entering a cylindrical cave, it becomes visible at once and ºdoesn't change. º> As a former colleague was an amateur speleologist, i know the 2 ºtypes of caves º> to exist... º> º> Laughingly, º> Jan º º º º/join º º º º º ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome ºall to a. º º º ºYour use of is subject to /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2001 Report Share Posted December 20, 2001 Hi Wim, Thanks for the story; for contemplatives, caves have more than one purpose... The other case, 100% reflective, is even more remarkable as it will only show the light shining on it with a distortion, depending on the surface, either as one or many Love, Jan On 12/19/01 at 9:28 PM Wim Borsboom wrote: ºDear Jan, º ºThat about 100 % absorption is so true, my father demonstrated that at the ºUniversity in Delft, Holland where he worked. ºBy the way, it counts for sound as well...although the room has to also be ºa ºvacuum and different laws of physics are involved. He helped build both ºsuch ºrooms... ºHe also made the world's smallest quartz sphere ever... by hand. It was ºtotally 'useless', except that it made him proud. Some quartz lenses he ºmade ºare still circling the globe... He was a remarkable man... though not many ºknew him... Through these lenses he helped NASA to be able to see ºeverything ºand everyone in very fine detail from quite a distance... (Huygens and Van ºLeeuwenhoeck were his models and heroes.) º ºMy father was as special as my mother... º ºLove, Wim º(I could not have been be without them) º º ºjb [kvy9] ºWednesday, December 19, 2001 8:45 PM º ºRe: Re: Does the darkness vanish gradually or ºat once? º º º ºOn 12/19/01 at 11:29 PM gabriele_ebert wrote: º ººVery interesting, but not meant by Sri Ramana º º ºWalls with 100% absorption will not show a cave at all, even if the torch ºwas as bright as the sun. º ºº ºº, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: ºº> On 12/19/01 at 8:50 PM fewtch wrote: ºº> ºº> º, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: ºº> º ºº> º> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan ººreplied: ºº> º> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, ºº> º> does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" ºº> º ºº> ºA nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. ººCan ºº> ºdarkness be said to have substance? ºº> º ºº> ºLove, ºº> º ºº> ºTim ºº> ºº> The question can be read, when entering a cave with a burning ººtorch, if ºº> it becomes gradually or suddenly visible. Of course there is a ººperspective, ºº> that both is possible, but not simultaneously. On entering the wide ººsection ºº> of a conical cave, it will be barely visible but by continuing to ººwalk, the amount ºº> of light/square foot increases - so gradually, it becomes visible. ºº> On entering a cylindrical cave, it becomes visible at once and ººdoesn't change. ºº> As a former colleague was an amateur speleologist, i know the 2 ººtypes of caves ºº> to exist... ºº> ºº> Laughingly, ºº> Jan ºº ºº ºº ºº/join ºº ºº ºº ºº ºº ººAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, ººperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and ººsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not ººdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the ººnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. ººIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the ººFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of ººSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome ººall to a. ºº ºº ºº ººYour use of is subject to º º º º º º/join º º º º º ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside ºback into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than ºthe ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of ºAwareness. ºAwareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is ºwhere the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal ºBeing. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, ºspontaneously ºarising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. º º º ºYour use of is subject to º º º--- ºIncoming mail is certified Virus Free. ºChecked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ºVersion: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 º º--- ºOutgoing mail is certified Virus Free. ºChecked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ºVersion: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 º º º º/join º º º º º ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome ºall to a. º º º ºYour use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2001 Report Share Posted December 20, 2001 Your statements about caves is interesting - in another context. But you mu= st be aware that you leave the story and the picture given by Sri Ramana now= , because it is not meant this way by him. For what he meant you can also u= se another picture: If you enter a room in the dark and put on the electric light, does the dar= kness vanish gradually or at once? It is interesting what you and others make with this simple story. Nothing = against that and what you and others say - but you should be aware - it has = no longer anything to do with the original quotation and its context. Gabriele , "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: > > On 12/19/01 at 11:29 PM gabriele_ebert wrote: > > ºVery interesting, but not meant by Sri Ramana > > > Walls with 100% absorption will not show a cave at all, even if the torch= was as bright as the sun. > > º > º, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: > º> On 12/19/01 at 8:50 PM fewtch wrote: > º> > º> º, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > º> º > º> º> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan > ºreplied: > º> º> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, > º> º> does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" > º> º > º> ºA nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. > ºCan > º> ºdarkness be said to have substance? > º> º > º> ºLove, > º> º > º> ºTim > º> > º> The question can be read, when entering a cave with a burning > ºtorch, if > º> it becomes gradually or suddenly visible. Of course there is a > ºperspective, > º> that both is possible, but not simultaneously. On entering the wide > ºsection > º> of a conical cave, it will be barely visible but by continuing to > ºwalk, the amount > º> of light/square foot increases - so gradually, it becomes visible. > º> On entering a cylindrical cave, it becomes visible at once and > ºdoesn't change. > º> As a former colleague was an amateur speleologist, i know the 2 > ºtypes of caves > º> to exist... > º> > º> Laughingly, > º> Jan > º > º > º > º/join > º > º > º > º > º > ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Presen= t. > ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the > ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of > ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome > ºall to a. > º > º > º > ºYour use of is subject to http://docs./info/terms= / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2001 Report Share Posted December 20, 2001 On 12/20/01 at 8:50 AM gabriele_ebert wrote: ºYour statements about caves is interesting - in another context. But you ºmu= ºst be aware that you leave the story and the picture given by Sri Ramana ºnow= º, because it is not meant this way by him. For what he meant you can also ºu= ºse another picture: ºIf you enter a room in the dark and put on the electric light, does the ºdar= ºkness vanish gradually or at once? Obviously the question was not meant for a physicist. Light has to travel to the walls and what is nearest, will be seen first. So the correct answer has to be "gradual", unless... º ºIt is interesting what you and others make with this simple story. Nothing º= ºagainst that and what you and others say - but you should be aware - it ºhas = ºno longer anything to do with the original quotation and its context. º ºGabriele Quotes can be out of context because of differences in culture. Jan º º, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: º> º> On 12/19/01 at 11:29 PM gabriele_ebert wrote: º> º> ºVery interesting, but not meant by Sri Ramana º> º> º> Walls with 100% absorption will not show a cave at all, even if the ºtorch= º was as bright as the sun. º> º> º º> º, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: º> º> On 12/19/01 at 8:50 PM fewtch wrote: º> º> º> º> º, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: º> º> º º> º> º> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan º> ºreplied: º> º> º> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, º> º> º> does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" º> º> º º> º> ºA nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. º> ºCan º> º> ºdarkness be said to have substance? º> º> º º> º> ºLove, º> º> º º> º> ºTim º> º> º> º> The question can be read, when entering a cave with a burning º> ºtorch, if º> º> it becomes gradually or suddenly visible. Of course there is a º> ºperspective, º> º> that both is possible, but not simultaneously. On entering the wide º> ºsection º> º> of a conical cave, it will be barely visible but by continuing to º> ºwalk, the amount º> º> of light/square foot increases - so gradually, it becomes visible. º> º> On entering a cylindrical cave, it becomes visible at once and º> ºdoesn't change. º> º> As a former colleague was an amateur speleologist, i know the 2 º> ºtypes of caves º> º> to exist... º> º> º> º> Laughingly, º> º> Jan º> º º> º º> º º> º/join º> º º> º º> º º> º º> º º> ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, º> ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and º> ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not º> ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the º> ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always ºPresen= ºt. º> ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the º> ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of º> ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome º> ºall to a. º> º º> º º> º º> ºYour use of is subject to ºhttp://docs./info/terms= º/ º º º º/join º º º º º ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome ºall to a. º º º ºYour use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2001 Report Share Posted December 20, 2001 Dear Gabriele: Yes, with a mind caught in its own attempt to grasp self and substance, everything appears distorted. Without such mind, light alone. The self-contradictory mind doesn't disappear little by little, because something getting less and less, is still something. That something can go on and on, forever believing it is getting less and less. Dissapearance is "all at once, and complete" ... so complete that "it never happened in the first place" ... Namaste, Dan > Your statements about caves is interesting - in another context. But you mu= > st be aware that you leave the story and the picture given by Sri Ramana now= > , because it is not meant this way by him. For what he meant you can also u= > se another picture: > If you enter a room in the dark and put on the electric light, does the dar= > kness vanish gradually or at once? > > It is interesting what you and others make with this simple story. Nothing = > against that and what you and others say - but you should be aware - it has = > no longer anything to do with the original quotation and its context. > > Gabriele > > , "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: > > > > On 12/19/01 at 11:29 PM gabriele_ebert wrote: > > > > ºVery interesting, but not meant by Sri Ramana > > > > > > Walls with 100% absorption will not show a cave at all, even if the torch= > was as bright as the sun. > > > > º > > º, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: > > º> On 12/19/01 at 8:50 PM fewtch wrote: > > º> > > º> º, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > > º> º > > º> º> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan > > ºreplied: > > º> º> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, > > º> º> does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" > > º> º > > º> ºA nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. > > ºCan > > º> ºdarkness be said to have substance? > > º> º > > º> ºLove, > > º> º > > º> ºTim > > º> > > º> The question can be read, when entering a cave with a burning > > ºtorch, if > > º> it becomes gradually or suddenly visible. Of course there is a > > ºperspective, > > º> that both is possible, but not simultaneously. On entering the wide > > ºsection > > º> of a conical cave, it will be barely visible but by continuing to > > ºwalk, the amount > > º> of light/square foot increases - so gradually, it becomes visible. > > º> On entering a cylindrical cave, it becomes visible at once and > > ºdoesn't change. > > º> As a former colleague was an amateur speleologist, i know the 2 > > ºtypes of caves > > º> to exist... > > º> > > º> Laughingly, > > º> Jan > > º > > º > > º > > º/join > > º > > º > > º > > º > > º > > ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > > ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > > ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > > ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > > ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Presen= > t. > > ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the > > ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of > > ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome > > ºall to a. > > º > > º > > º > > ºYour use of is subject to http://docs./info/terms= > / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2001 Report Share Posted December 20, 2001 Dear Jan and Gabriele, Jan wrote: >>>Quotes can be out of context because of differences in culture.<<< It is fun and useful to play though. How ell do we really know someone else's culture...so many invalid mis- and pre-conceptions... It may be that when we interpret playfully and benevolently...away from our pre-conceived ideas, even if positively meant... that we might actually hit upon a very valid meaning, maybe even upon an intended meaning by the sage. Take the word "sin", I see it often used in western translations of mantras, the Shiva manas puja mantra, last part, is good example. Even when translated by Hindu people, even those who know Sanskrit quite well, the word sin in it is does not seem to fit properly, especially when we understand it the Judaic, Christian, Protestant, or Libertarian Moral (hehehe) way... By the way, each of those just listed, gives a slightly different slant... Etc... Oh were we just without sin! And we are! Is SIN per chance THE concept of concepts...? Wim, Love and exonerate yourself at all costs... there is no risk involved... eventually liberation (moksha) will be recovered. The burden to carry a moral weight is guaranteed to break the camel's back at some point. jb [kvy9] Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:54 AM Re: Re: Does the darkness vanish gradually or at once? On 12/20/01 at 8:50 AM gabriele_ebert wrote: ºYour statements about caves is interesting - in another context. But you ºmu= ºst be aware that you leave the story and the picture given by Sri Ramana ºnow= º, because it is not meant this way by him. For what he meant you can also ºu= ºse another picture: ºIf you enter a room in the dark and put on the electric light, does the ºdar= ºkness vanish gradually or at once? Obviously the question was not meant for a physicist. Light has to travel to the walls and what is nearest, will be seen first. So the correct answer has to be "gradual", unless... º ºIt is interesting what you and others make with this simple story. Nothing º= ºagainst that and what you and others say - but you should be aware - it ºhas = ºno longer anything to do with the original quotation and its context. º ºGabriele Jan º º, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: º> º> On 12/19/01 at 11:29 PM gabriele_ebert wrote: º> º> ºVery interesting, but not meant by Sri Ramana º> º> º> Walls with 100% absorption will not show a cave at all, even if the ºtorch= º was as bright as the sun. º> º> º º> º, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: º> º> On 12/19/01 at 8:50 PM fewtch wrote: º> º> º> º> º, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: º> º> º º> º> º> Referring to the final improvement of realisation, Bhagavan º> ºreplied: º> º> º> 'When you take a lighted torch into a dark cave, º> º> º> does the darkness vanish gradually or at once?'" º> º> º º> º> ºA nice answer, given that the darkness was never there at all. º> ºCan º> º> ºdarkness be said to have substance? º> º> º º> º> ºLove, º> º> º º> º> ºTim º> º> º> º> The question can be read, when entering a cave with a burning º> ºtorch, if º> º> it becomes gradually or suddenly visible. Of course there is a º> ºperspective, º> º> that both is possible, but not simultaneously. On entering the wide º> ºsection º> º> of a conical cave, it will be barely visible but by continuing to º> ºwalk, the amount º> º> of light/square foot increases - so gradually, it becomes visible. º> º> On entering a cylindrical cave, it becomes visible at once and º> ºdoesn't change. º> º> As a former colleague was an amateur speleologist, i know the 2 º> ºtypes of caves º> º> to exist... º> º> º> º> Laughingly, º> º> Jan º> º º> º º> º º> º/join º> º º> º º> º º> º º> º º> ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, º> ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and º> ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not º> ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the º> ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always ºPresen= ºt. º> ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the º> ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of º> ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome º> ºall to a. º> º º> º º> º º> ºYour use of is subject to ºhttp://docs./info/terms= º/ º º º º/join º º º º º ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome ºall to a. º º º ºYour use of is subject to /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2001 Report Share Posted December 20, 2001 On 12/20/01 at 8:51 AM Wim Borsboom wrote: ºDear Jan and Gabriele, º ºJan wrote: º>>>Quotes can be out of context because of differences in culture.<<< º ºIt is fun and useful to play though. ºHow ell do we really know someone else's culture...so many invalid mis- and ºpre-conceptions... ºIt may be that when we interpret playfully and benevolently...away from our ºpre-conceived ideas, even if positively meant... that we might actually hit ºupon a very valid meaning, maybe even upon an intended meaning by the sage. It's not easy to know different cultures. For instance, it has been thought that slaves were having a horrible time, way back in the old Rome. But some years ago it was discovered, that although a slave had no rights, slaves were living in houses, had to work some 3 to 5 days per week and were well fed. Compare that to the region where i've been living in Belgium, no slavery but ages of theft, rape and plunder, despite "freedom". Hence i don't make any assumptions but instead, see the assumptions made for a statement to be true which invariably shows one or more perspectives where it isn't. Suppose a golf ball is to land in a hole. For the mouse, it enters suddenly but not so for the eagle, circling above the field. º ºTake the word "sin", I see it often used in western translations of ºmantras, ºthe Shiva manas puja mantra, last part, is good example. Even when ºtranslated by Hindu people, even those who know Sanskrit quite well, the ºword sin in it is does not seem to fit properly, especially when we ºunderstand it the Judaic, Christian, Protestant, or Libertarian Moral º(hehehe) way... ºBy the way, each of those just listed, gives a slightly different slant... º ºEtc... º ºOh were we just without sin! ºAnd we are! ºIs SIN per chance THE concept of concepts...? That word is quite a laugh - a lookup from the dictionary: --------------------- 1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate. 2. Theology. a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God. b. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience. 3. Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong. See synonyms at OFFENSE. --------------------- Sin cannot be shown, unlike flowers, dogs or cats or butterflies. Only existent in the minds of men as a thought with fellow-thoughts, properly called "conditioning". º ºWim, ºLove and exonerate yourself at all costs... there is no risk involved... ºeventually liberation (moksha) will be recovered. ºThe burden to carry a moral weight is guaranteed to break the camel's back ºat some point. Before liberation from bondage takes place, liberation has to be bonded. If the world is unreal, this phrase is unreal too. Will a butterfly fly any better with a flight manual on its back? Does it need one in order to learn to fly? If tied up with one, will it think that throwing it off is the cause to be able to fly? Just questions, no answer. Peace, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2001 Report Share Posted December 21, 2001 Hi Dan, , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > The self-contradictory mind doesn't > disappear little by little, because > something getting less and less, is > still something. That something can > go on and on, forever believing it is > getting less and less. It's also possible that the self-contradictory mind would *seem to* disappear suddenly, and then the possibility of the "actual disappearance" is made impossible, because there's a belief "now there is no self-contradictory mind." Thus the various desires, memories, fears, etc. are trapped by the belief "there are no such things, they don't exist." If this is so, there's always the chance for suffering and "forgetting" to arise again -- upon a diagnosis of terminal illness, the death of a loved one, a chronic sickness, anything. The debate between "gradual" and "sudden" goes on forever -- it's not something thought is going to "solve" or "resolve." What is, is -- and what happens, happens (or appears to happen, if that sounds better). Namaste, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2001 Report Share Posted December 21, 2001 Dear Tim, Let's look into this a bit: The self-contradictory mind is the attempt to superimpose something, based on memory/thought-image. When the attempt to superimpose something ceases, there is only "what is", which is what is the whole time. What is isn't sudden or gradual, yet the ceasing of imposition is instantaneously "now" ... It ceases to such an extent that it never began... It ceases prior to "instantaneous" and prior to "now" ... As long as the attempt to superimpose continues, there is the impression of obscuration. The attempt to superimpose can continue as the intent and belief in "becoming less and less," but this still is an imposition. As mentioned previously, there is no one imposing anything, the belief that someone is there to impose is how the attempt to superimpose maintains itself as an apparently continuing constellation. When the attempt ceases, it ceases. It doesn't sort of kind of cease a little bit, and then a little more -- because that simply is another version of continuity. Not debating sudden and gradual enlightenment here at all. Simply noting that a pattern of attempting continuity either ceases or attempts to continue. As far as whether or not the attempt to superimpose can renew itself after appearing to have ceased, yes, certainly. And if so, simple clarity "now" resolves. It's always a matter of "now" ... Because it always resolves "prior to 'now'", it's not a matter of teaching someone else how to cease imposition. It's always only a matter of non-imposition here, now ... It all boils down to "this moment": either there is an attempt to impose, to continue, or there isn't: this moment. In fact, there can't be an attempt to impose anything "this moment", so it's a matter of "insight" or "non-division of being aware" or "non-ignore-ance" ... And indeed, investment in believing that there is no self-contradictory mind, or there is enlightenment, or whatever, is still imposition, the imposition of an agenda of belief ... As "what is, is", there is no attempt to superimpose on "what is", in the form of "what should be", "what would be better", "what I've got to have to be okay", etc. This is what these words address, not a debate between sudden and gradual. A debate is a form of continuity and imposition, in and of itself. A debate might be enjoyed the way a game of tennis might be enjoyed, but no thought that a debate will result in the true view of whether things really are this way or that way. Things simply are. This way. .. :-) Peace, Dan > It's also possible that the self-contradictory mind would *seem to* > disappear suddenly, and then the possibility of the "actual > disappearance" is made impossible, because there's a belief "now > there is no self-contradictory mind." Thus the various desires, > memories, fears, etc. are trapped by the belief "there are no such > things, they don't exist." If this is so, there's always the chance > for suffering and "forgetting" to arise again -- upon a diagnosis of > terminal illness, the death of a loved one, a chronic sickness, > anything. > > The debate between "gradual" and "sudden" goes on forever -- it's not > something thought is going to "solve" or "resolve." What is, is -- > and what happens, happens (or appears to happen, if that sounds > better). > > Namaste, > > Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2001 Report Share Posted December 21, 2001 Hi Dan, , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > Dear Tim, > > Let's look into this a bit: Sure... i'll snip what doesn't seem relevant 'here', if that's ok :- ). Discussing this kind of stuff has become a tiresome exercise in futility for the most part, so i won't bother discussing much along these lines (if that's OK too). > What is isn't sudden or gradual, yet the ceasing > of imposition is instantaneously "now" ... > > It ceases to such an extent that it never began... I'm sorry, that makes no sense whatsoever. You might as well take up Sandeep's "Doobee dobee doo," it conveys about as much :-). > It ceases prior to "instantaneous" and prior to "now" ... Then it didn't exist or cease, and to say "it ceases" is contradictory. And there's the "rub." > The attempt to superimpose can continue as > the intent and belief in "becoming less and less," > but this still is an imposition. A light fades out gradually, and finally can't be seen anymore. A common, everyday experience. > When the attempt ceases, it ceases. > It doesn't sort of kind of cease a little bit, > and then a little more -- because that simply > is another version of continuity. Sure... perhaps we're talking about two different things, as conditioning doesn't consist of "an attempt to superimpose." > Not debating sudden and gradual enlightenment here > at all. Simply noting that a pattern of attempting > continuity either ceases or attempts to continue. Oh, ok. Namaste, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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