((((((((((((((-:-))))))))))))))

[Guest guest]

Wim, Laughing...

As always, playing...

Gosh how many times did I invite you guys too play...?

Granted, always at the end of a long post :-)

Testing, testing ?

still laughing...

David Bozzi

[david.bozzi (AT) netzero (DOT) net]Sunday, December 23, 2001 9:02

AMSubject: Re: Re:

wordsleteegee (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: Wim.... Sweet Heart... I love you, but

please shut up for awhile. You're exhausting me!I have a blister on

my 'scroll' finger. Hey, did anyone see the post where Wim actually

got Bruce to snip? Says even more than one of Wim's posts. Love you

too Wim, Playfully, David

/join

All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to the

[Guest guest]

Hi

Dear

Beloved

list

a very subjective voice (me) from the silent majority on this list:

i like to play, too...

>:-> (User just made a really devilish remark)

+-:-) (User is the Pope or holds some other religious office)

i like Wim's postings.

just had a look at the folder where i keep the messages i like or

dislike or that give good information from ,

wim's messages are most prevalent,

(gloria, Christopher, jb, magna aga, lynette amd maze are also there

multiple times,... love your writing)

that's my top 7...

.......

scrolling down wim's messages is not as bad as having to scroll down

through the whole of wordings to come to a single line of response...

or a single line of response and 35kb already known material at the end...

|-{ ("Good Grief!" (Charlie Brown?))

well i'm not situated in India where this would really frustrate me,

waiting 10 minutes to get a 50kb message to find out i've seen it all

before...

:-" (Pursing lips)

i love you Wim

please keep on babbling

i love your opponents

please keep on babbling

i love advaita

no babble

*<:-)

Santa Claus

Wim Borsboom

[wim (AT) aurasphere (DOT) org]Sunday, December 23, 2001 6:27 PMTo:

Subject:

((((((((((((((-:-))))))))))))))

Wim, Laughing...

As always, playing...

Gosh how many times did I invite you guys too play...?

Granted, always at the end of a long post :-)

Testing, testing ?

still laughing...

[Guest guest]

Dear Santa,

Thanks for some much needed seasonal mirth. Please show up more than

once a year! Come back sooner and often, ok? It is most appropriate

for you to express your concerns here about the list. Indeed, the

silent majority of this list is all but unheard from, when so few

regular posters appear from the almost 500 members. Difficult as it

is to generalize about wishes of list members, the guidelines of

topic focus and a manner of speech inclusive of mutual respect and

amity are given by Harsha in the list description.

To interject a teensy point of distinction, we are not running a

popularity contest here. Liking or not liking Wim personally is

beside the point, the main point being he has made the proverbial

dead horse of his siddha topic. Also nothing against Wim personally,

but from words written on an email list who can be in any position to

evaluate claims to special powers or experiences one way or the other?

Let people believe whatever seems best to them. In that sense, the

main person making his posts unwelcome here is Wim himself. I too

have been told enough is enough by Harsha occasionally, and I like to

think he still likes me. People also have different preferences and

tolerances for lengthy posts, poetry (alas), politics and certain

topics that may lend themselves to endless unresolvable debate.

There's no pleasing everyone, but considerate sharing to the extent

that one does not dominate the sangha's time and attention is

appreciated.

Wim is welcome to keep on babbling, he has just been asked to find a

new topic. And everyone is asked to snip as much as possible, thanks

for the reminder.

Love,

Gloria

- Santa Claus

Sunday, December 23, 2001 3:41 PM

RE: ((((((((((((((-:-))))))))))))))

Hi

Dear

Beloved

list

[Guest guest]

Dear Gloria,

Hi Gloria,

PLEASE DO (NOT) TAKE THIS WORDINGS SERIOUSLy,

THEY ARE (NOT) SERIOUSLy!!

:-w (Speak with forked tongue) ??!

as the season is, it is, i'm restricted to these few days in the

course of the year, GOD, the Almighty and the DEVIL, this little

bugger won't allow me!

Never had concerns, just playful remarks, so please...

let's express it one more TIME:

Wim is my favourite!!!!

I

personally like short posts:

Lao Tzu style,

yes HE KNEW

how to put it short .

Does it really matter to

evaluate

Wim's "special powers"?

Give it a good laugh,

if you don't believe,

or are you jealous,

not to have it?

I certainly have all these powers, I'm Santa Claus, also known as

Father Christmas, enlightened by the children's believe....

:-T (Keeping a straight face)

Lenghthy posts and poetry....

Yes i don't like that too much,

especially the posts (or) poetry from ....

yes, YOU are meant!!

luckily i've found a key:

it's called DELETE

well i'm getting long HERE as well,

xuse me.

|-) hee hee|-D ho ho:-> hey hey

Santa C.

Gloria Lee

[glee (AT) citlink (DOT) net]Sunday, December 23, 2001 10:52 PMTo:

Subject: Re:

((((((((((((((-:-))))))))))))))

Dear Santa,

Thanks for some much needed seasonal mirth. Please show up more than

once a year! Come back sooner and often, ok? It is most appropriate

for you to express your concerns here about the list. Indeed, the

silent majority of this list is all but unheard from, when so few

regular posters appear from the almost 500 members. Difficult as it

is to generalize about wishes of list members, by Harsha in the list

description.

To interject a teensy point of distinction, we are not running a

popularity contest here. Liking or not liking Wim personally is

beside the point, the main point being he has made the proverbial

dead horse of his siddha topic. Also nothing against Wim personally,

but from words written on an email list who can be in any position to

evaluate claims to special powers or experiences one way or the other?

Let people believe whatever seems best to them. In that sense, the

main person making his posts unwelcome here is Wim himself. I too

have been told enough is enough by Harsha occasionally, and I like to

think he still likes me. People also have different preferences and

tolerances for lengthy posts, poetry (alas), politics and certain

topics that may lend themselves to endless unresolvable debate.

There's no pleasing everyone, but considerate sharing to the extent

that one does not dominate the sangha's time and attention is

appreciated.

Wim is welcome to keep on babbling, he has just been asked to find a

new topic. And everyone is asked to snip as much as possible, thanks

for the reminder.

Love,

Gloria

[Guest guest]

Thank you dear sister Gloria for saying it clearly. We are not

running popularity contests here.

 

Frankly, talk of Siddhis and such things bores not just me but a lot

of people on this list.

 

Self is Realized by the Self and through the Self. Anything else is a

side path, a gimmic, and from the perspective of Sri Ramana's

teaching, a waste of time.

 

Of course, I am not against people wasting time or entertaining

themselves in a variety of ways. Good judgment and common sense is

essential in doing even that, however. It is not a nice thing to

constantly bore an audience to tears.

 

By the way Gloria, if I ever told you that "enough is enough" you can

be sure, afterwards, I felt like a brother who had been out of line

but knew that big sister would understand.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

 

, "Gloria Lee" <glee@c...> wrote:

> Dear Santa,

>

> Thanks for some much needed seasonal mirth. Please show up more

than once a year! Come back sooner and often, ok?

> It is most appropriate for you to express your concerns here about

the list. Indeed, the silent majority of this list is all but unheard

from, when so few regular posters appear from the almost 500 members.

Difficult as it is to generalize about wishes of list members, the

guidelines of topic focus and a manner of speech inclusive of mutual

respect and amity are given by Harsha in the list description.

>

> To interject a teensy point of distinction, we are not running a

popularity contest here. Liking or not liking Wim personally is

beside the point, the main point being he has made the proverbial

dead horse of his siddha topic. Also nothing against Wim personally,

but from words written on an email list who can be in any position to

evaluate claims to special powers or experiences one way or the

other? Let people believe whatever seems best to them. In that sense,

the main person making his posts unwelcome here is Wim himself. I too

have been told enough is enough by Harsha occasionally, and I like to

think he still likes me. People also have different preferences and

tolerances for lengthy posts, poetry (alas), politics and certain

topics that may lend themselves to endless unresolvable debate.

There's no pleasing everyone, but considerate sharing to the extent

that one does not dominate the sangha's time and attention is

appreciated.

>

> Wim is welcome to keep on babbling, he has just been asked to find

a new topic. And everyone is asked to snip as much as possible,

thanks for the reminder.

>

> Love,

> Gloria

>

> -

> Santa Claus

>

> Sunday, December 23, 2001 3:41 PM

> RE: ((((((((((((((-:-))))))))))))))

>

>

> Hi

> Dear

> Beloved

>

> list

[Guest guest]

Hi Harsha,

 

"Kudos" to you for encouraging talk of siddhis and such be kept to a

minimum here. There are a lot of other lists available for those

interested in such topics.

 

It seems here that if talk of siddhis arises occasionally and

spontaneously in conversation it's OK, but a focus on such topics

could skew the whole perspective of the list, at least for awhile...

something i've seen occurring on other lists before.

 

Love (and happy holidays),

 

Tim

 

, "harshaimtm" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

> Frankly, talk of Siddhis and such things bores not just me but a

> lot of people on this list.

>

> Self is Realized by the Self and through the Self. Anything else is

> a side path, a gimmic, and from the perspective of Sri Ramana's

> teaching, a waste of time.

>

> Of course, I am not against people wasting time or entertaining

> themselves in a variety of ways. Good judgment and common sense is

> essential in doing even that, however. It is not a nice thing to

> constantly bore an audience to tears.

>

> By the way Gloria, if I ever told you that "enough is enough" you

can

> be sure, afterwards, I felt like a brother who had been out of line

> but knew that big sister would understand.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

[Guest guest]

Hello all on the list.

 

I'd like to make an apology for my being the instigator

of the whole siddhis debacle.

 

As some here know, I have my hot button issues and I

respond to them almost mechanically. I suppose this

indicates an area in need of further transformation.

 

I hope Wim and all see that despite the Man of La Mancha

stands I take, I really mean well. It's not about the

people, it's the ideas that draw fire.

 

If I could make a living of it, I'd be standing on my

soapbox 10-12 hours a day. I guess you could call it

a character flaw. Most of us on soapboxes have them.

 

I only want to prevent the same misunderstandings I plied

on the path. That is my windmill.

 

When it is understood why these are misunderstandings,

it astonishes as to why we'd fallen for them in the

first place.

 

It's such a simple understanding, more basic than anything

we know. It's always right there in front of our eyes,

sitting in our front pocket. When I see it unnecessarily

complicated I cannot help but respond in the defense of the

simplicity of it.

 

I hope it isn't too boring, and I thank those who have

expressed appreciation at times. My new year's resolution

will be to try and look before I leap, thereby sparing those

not wanting to be dragged along on my quest.

 

Happy Holidays, God bless you and take care.

 

--jody.

 

 

 

, "harshaimtm" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

> Thank you dear sister Gloria for saying it clearly. We are not

> running popularity contests here.

>

> Frankly, talk of Siddhis and such things bores not just me but a lot

> of people on this list.

>

> Self is Realized by the Self and through the Self. Anything else is a

> side path, a gimmic, and from the perspective of Sri Ramana's

> teaching, a waste of time.

>

> Of course, I am not against people wasting time or entertaining

> themselves in a variety of ways. Good judgment and common sense is

> essential in doing even that, however. It is not a nice thing to

> constantly bore an audience to tears.

>

> By the way Gloria, if I ever told you that "enough is enough" you can

> be sure, afterwards, I felt like a brother who had been out of line

> but knew that big sister would understand.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

[Guest guest]

My dear Jody and Harsha and Gloria

 

Jody, I see no valid reason for you to have to apologise..., not to the

list, not to anyone.

(Better to stand for something, than to fall for nothing or everything.)

You took a stance, I took a stance and neither of us lost their cool...

(whereas we've seen different from others before...)

And... I enjoyed the challenge... if it was a challenge at all.

 

:-) Only thing is, I did not know that that Siddhi was an 'S word'. :-)

 

Gosh, we have had discussions on this list, about way more 'out of this

world' topics, topics that were allowed to go on ad infinitum almost.

At one point I could even write about the 'imbibing of urine', and nobody

lost their sense of humour... Well, why should they or why should they not?

Maybe because the head of state of India enjoyed this daily drink, as Harsha

so humorously mentioned, and maybe also, because urine is just not an 'S

word'.

 

As soon as the 'S word' was uttered though, a different behaviour came into

play... Indicative of a sore spot maybe, some weakness? Words like,

"babbling, boring, bored to tears, popularity contest, out of line, gimmick,

waste of time, not a nice thing" and other such silly language was brought

in. Words that belong more in a 'high school setting' of adolescent peer

pressure. A fine example actually, of subtle 'clique control'.

 

Gloria wrote:

>>> ... In that sense, the main person making his posts unwelcome here is

Wim himself. <<<

 

Wow, Gloria... such a clever way of deeming and making a topic anathema...

!!!

 

I was very surprised by Harsha's two post on this, he also came very close

to making this Siddha topic 'anathema' and that in spite of what he wrote

before on December 16:

>>> The tension between the so called Siddha path and Jnana path has existed

for a long time and there are many stories in the

literature to illustrate the differences.

The Yogis who realize the highest consciousness and Jnanis see no difference

anywhere. Swami Yogananda had no problem visiting Sri Ramana. A Jnani *sees

clearly* the convergence of all paths. [snips] We are here to love and

support each other and not challenge the validity of each other's practice

or understanding (although some challenging is fun :-).<<<

 

I stand by my absolute resolve that a Siddha and Jnani are NOT exclusive,

that is the full Realization of Being that I bring to this.

 

Ramana may be interpreted any which way by 'experts' who may feel a need to

defend the integrity or even the supremacy of Jnani Yoga. But wiser people

than 'experts' and myself, such as Aurobindo Bose and Mahatma Ghandi have

made comments towards a full resolve on this, both people who worked so hard

to overcome caste, class, communal and... yoga distinctions. (Aurobindo by

developing his integral yoga in his magazine Bande Mataram.)

 

And by the way, Ramana admonished me, (yes, I have clear visions on this) to

carry on in my endeavour to help overcome our parochial yogic views as we

are zooming in, so to say, on the greatest clarity of BEING...

 

It needs only one small and easy step, "the convergence of all paths" (as

you, Harsha worded it above.)

 

Love, Wim.

Remembering the three kings of the Christmas story, each one representing a

different past and path, but all converging on the one star, Emanuel...

"Supreme SELF, being with and within us, each one of us."

That we may see this, as such is the meaning of 'epiphany'.

 

http://www.aurasphere.org

 

 

 

 

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001

 

 

 

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001

Attachment: (application/ms-tnef) winmail.dat [not stored]

[Guest guest]

Hi Wim,

 

, "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote:

> And by the way, Ramana admonished me, (yes, I have clear visions on

> this) to carry on in my endeavour to help overcome our parochial

> yogic views as we are zooming in, so to say, on the greatest

> clarity of BEING...

 

It seems the above statement is precisely the sort prompting the

negative responses (not a judgement on the statement itself, merely

an observation).

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

[Guest guest]

On 12/26/01 at 5:40 AM jodyrrr wrote:

 

ºHello all on the list.

º

ºI'd like to make an apology for my being the instigator

ºof the whole siddhis debacle.

 

[...]

 

Jody, don't worry about it - there are "worse" buttons than discussing

an issue on list, like adding it to the "inner" list of "unresolved issues" aka

"conditioning".

Regarding the topic of siddhis, the discussion wasn't from the proper

perspective:

there are no siddhis. Even science today has admitted, not one mind-body

perceives the universe

as another: every mind-body is unique. Another way of saying the same is

"dependent arising",

meaning every creature "comes" with its "own" local subset of perceived reality.

 

The issue of transformation as discussed in Rosicrucian and Yogic texts

implicits

the expansion of this local subset, resulting in a change of the laws of nature

as well - locally.

On a subatomic scale perception already is what is expected: When wishing to

perceive

light as particles, light, electrons etc. behave as such, when wishing these

'particles' to

perceive as waves, that happens too. But - never simultaneously.

 

Hence, the expansion of the subset of local reality often means a shift from the

microscopic

to the macroscopic.

 

A very simplistic way of regarding the matter is that "Nature" truly abhors a

vacuum.

Hence, a mind, emptied from "i & mine" issues, is "filled" with

something else -

often also, an

"enhancement" to perception. Nothing "supernatural" though. There are no siddhis

- only "Reality" is

 

Peace,

Jan

[Guest guest]

Exactly... my dearest Tim

 

I wrote:

>>> And by the way, Ramana admonished me, (yes, I have clear visions on

this) to carry on in my endeavour to help overcome our parochial yogic

views as we are zooming in, so to say, on the greatest clarity of BEING...

<<<

 

Tim responded:

>>> It seems the above statement is precisely the sort prompting the

negative responses (not a judgement on the statement itself, merely an

observation).<<<

 

Yes, thank you Tim !!! That is exactly where trust and surrender come in...

I love your coming to the point... the edge actually...

This is the quintessential edge...

 

I wrote:

>>> It needs only one small and easy step, "the convergence of all paths"

(as Harsha worded it...)<<<

 

One more step, and one will never lose balance again... as there is no

need, no want, no more...

 

Ah, I love you so Tim,

Wim

 

PS

I fully appreciate your:

>>> (not a judgement on the statement itself, merely an observation).<<<

[Guest guest]

, "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote:

> My dear Jody and Harsha and Gloria

> And by the way, Ramana admonished me, (yes, I have clear visions on

this) to

> carry on in my endeavour to help overcome our parochial yogic views

as we

> are zooming in, so to say, on the greatest clarity of BEING...

>

 

Dear Wim:

 

I can't help but think that siddhi's and the use and conversations

about them constitute parochial views.

 

They are distractions whether completely imaginary or not.

 

I have difficulty with the idea Sri Ramana wanted these discussions

promoted as the greatest clarity of BEING or that he "licensed"

someone to do this.

 

Perhaps you intended something other than what I have taken. The

phrase "our parochial yogic views" means you have included yourself

as one who must overcome them.

 

Everyone is pure but the karma which generates our activities is not.

My reason for being on the list is to help and be helped (and have

some fun). I feel sure that yours is the same.

 

Love

 

Bobby G.

[Guest guest]

Dear Wim,

 

, "Wim Borsboom" <wim@a...> wrote:

 

<Snipped

> Yes, thank you Tim !!! That is exactly where trust and surrender

> come in... I love your coming to the point... the edge actually...

> This is the quintessential edge...

 

Call it a "specialty" if you like :-). Not often accepted on these

lists, as social acceptability seems of overriding importance to

most...

> One more step, and one will never lose balance again... as there is

> no need, no want, no more...

 

Regarding "convergence of paths," that depends on the list (as if

there really was such an entity as "the list," other than in the

minds of various rs :-)).

 

The "bottom line" seems to be, "If Ramana agrees," so it might be

helpful to start trotting out more quotes <grin>.

> Ah, I love you so Tim,

> Wim

>

> PS

> I fully appreciate your:

> >>> (not a judgement on the statement itself, merely an

> observation).<<<

 

Just being honest -- how could i possibly deny the claim, or "object"

somehow to what you experience? Aversion to various experiences

seems to be a major tripping point for many, consciousness is open to

all manner of experiences. i've "had" my share of various "spiritual

experiences," and all were enjoyable (and seemed quite meaningful) at

the time... of course, the ultimate importance of such experiences

are questionable, but in no way does that point to aversion as a way

of dealing with...

 

Love you too,

 

Tim

[Guest guest]

Dear Bobby,

 

You wrote:

>>> I can't help but think that siddhi's and the use and conversations about

them constitute parochial views...<<<

 

The conversations are, siddhis are not !!!

>>> They are distractions whether completely imaginary or not.<<<

 

Indeed, the considerations, conversations and arguments about 'Siddhi(s)'

ARE fully in the realm of the CONceptual, and therefore imaginary or

illusive. The siddhis ARE NOT... they are PERceptual and they stay

perceptual until they get distorted, de-formed and ab-used by conceptuality

and manipulative usage.

 

'Siddha' is fully in reality, the pure realm of energy and divine

manifestation.

 

I should say, that conceptual distortions have mis-appropriated siddhis, and

portrayed them anecdotically as illusionist tricks or magic. This is NOT the

original meaning of siddha or siddhis.

It may have been through people like Milarepa, who was rather uncareful in

his early life, that the misperceptions crept in... but all this is only

anecdotal material... Nobody has ever perceived magic in the realm of

reality, magic only works in the worlds of illusion and manipulation.

 

Siddhis are not anecdotal.

 

I could say more about that, but I appreciate, that I have tested people's

patience enough, so let me restate with Harsha that there is only one Siddhi

and that is the one that Ramana refers to, "Self-Realization is the only

True Siddhi."

 

One could say though, that, just like many minor insights lead to

enlightenment, many minor realizations lead to Full Realization; in the same

vein, one could say that many minor siddhis lead to the True Siddhi.

 

You wrote:

>>> I have difficulty with the idea Sri Ramana wanted these discussions

promoted as the greatest clarity of BEING or that he "licensed" someone to

do this.<<<

 

Ramana did not license me, of course not. Why would he? But, as I said, he

admonished me to carry on in my endeavour. (Which I started way before I

even knew of Ramana.)

I have records of those endeavours in newspaper articles and magazines in

Holland from around 1967.

>>> I have difficulty with the idea Sri Ramana wanted these discussions

promoted as the greatest clarity of BEING or that he "licensed" someone to

do this.<<<

 

:-)

 

I notice that you have that difficulty :-) and that you are not alone in

your difficulty, a difficulty that I do not have.

 

As I wrote before:

>>> As long as one is convinced that one has a special and personal reason

to hold on to one's difficulties, one will not recover one's innate

freedom.<<<

 

And of course you are right, the idea of 'licensing' is absolutely not

Ramana's, he himself was the least of licensed people...

 

The only thing that I have got against myself (:-) is that at some point I

did acquire some 'swimming diplomas' that allowed me to move freely in

bodies of water without the supervision of adults, for the rest I am

absolutely un-licensed, have no credentials whatsoever, I don't report to

anyone... no 'college of professionals', even peers cannot bother me

successfully.

 

Oh shoot..., I did get baptized..., but then again that was in the realm of

water, so that is not too bad. :-)

 

All kidding aside, there are no conditional prerequisites set up around me

to curtail me... And I invite anyone to accomplish the same... to break down

any limitation that encapsulates you. Move out of the world of 'boxes' that

are ready to fit you in (un)comfortably sealed with a stamp of approval.

Untie the strings that hold you to parochial views and puppetry behaviour.

Get freedom back, reclaim moksha, the Maha Siddha.

 

There is no risk involved as alone the risk of FREEDOM, which comes with its

own built in and... eternal and unconditional guarantee.

 

Love you Bobby, Wim

 

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001