Guest guest Posted December 30, 2001 Report Share Posted December 30, 2001 Dearest White Wolf, your words are beautiful and open doorways within that captures the light of dawn. You are a wonderful Being of Light . I do enjoy all you say, such beauty. Thank you from my heart of hearts. love Jeannie a Wayfarer - <> <> Sunday, December 30, 2001 5:10 PM Digest Number 1537 > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > ------ > > There are 25 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Jumping Into the River of Life > Julie Isaac <jei > 2. Re: A Prayer to God > Julie Isaac <jei > 3. Bliss - remaining as the Self > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > 4. Re: A Prayer to God > "vioricail" <viorica > 5. to Vicki: the newcomers look > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > 6. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > "vioricail" <viorica > 7. SURRENDER > "vioricail" <viorica > 8. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg > 9. prayer to Sri Ramana > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > 10. Re: SURRENDER > "White Wolfe" <valemar.1 > 11. Re: SURRENDER > "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert > 12. Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > "White Wolfe" <valemar.1 > 13. Re: SURRENDER > "fewtch" <coresite > 14. Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > "vioricail" <viorica > 15. RE: Re: SURRENDER > Wim Borsboom <wim > 16. Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > "vioricail" <viorica > 17. Re: SURRENDER > "vioricail" <viorica > 18. Re: SURRENDER - serious > "vioricail" <viorica > 19. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > "vioricail" <viorica > 20. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > "fewtch" <coresite > 21. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > "fewtch" <coresite > 22. Re: Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > leteegee > 23. Re: A Prayer to God > Julie Isaac <jei > 24. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > "vioricail" <viorica > 25. Re: A Prayer to God > "vioricail" <viorica > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 1 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:44:27 -0800 > Julie Isaac <jei > Jumping Into the River of Life > > Well gang, I'm on a roll tonight. Here's another one: > > While debate points still pop easily to mind, I find that the desire to > defend my own beliefs is fading. They're only beliefs, after all. Shadows on > the screen of consciousness that obscure the truth more than reveal it. The > only way to remove these shadows is to remove the beliefs. > > What are beliefs, but memories of past thoughts and conclusions. What would > it be like to meet every moment with the innocence of a newborn baby? > Without expectation or preconception? To erase knowledge from the mind and > meet life from a place of openness and wonder? To "not know" and revel in > not knowing? To embrace Mystery? > > More and more I long for this. Not as an escape (because knowing is the > safer choice), but as a desire for authenticity. Truth is not what is seen > or heard or known, it's the ground of being. Yes, that's a belief!! But, > it's also a longing. A longing to dive straight into what is. To dance > directly with life. I'm tired of the middleman, the gatekeeper, my thoughts. > I want to jump into the river of life and let the current carry me. No, it > won't carry me away; it's not a means of escape. It's the end of resistance. > Letting go. Surrender. > > Namaste, > Julie > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 2 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:01:48 -0800 > Julie Isaac <jei > Re: A Prayer to God > > Hi Vicki, > > Beliefs aren't damage, they're just beliefs. On this, or any other spiritual > path, it's easy to mistake what you've studied and gained some insight about > for realization. But, at some point, even non-dual philosophy is seen as > merely another set of beliefs. Another "thing" to let go of. > > At times, I skim the surface of Advaita; my fascination with its philosophy > blocking me from really resting in what is. While at other times, Advaita > pulls me deep into my own heart. How do I know the difference? I don't. I'm > constantly aware that my perception is faulty; that what "feels" true, may > not be true. So, I simply do my best to be honest and open and not worry > about coming to conclusions about whether any particular insight is ABSOLUTE > TRUTH or not. I try to stay alert and aware, but with a light touch. I'm not > as interested in claiming any particular insight as THE TRUTH, as I am in > saying that this is where I'm at--in this moment. I trust the truth of my > experience, always. It's my perception about my experience that isn't always > trustworthy. > > Running a quote list, myself, I worry about leading others astray in the > same way that you do. I know how easy it is to get lost in philosophy. But I > feel right doing what I'm doing and I trust that my members are exactly > where they need to be. Is this wisdom or naivete? Beats the heck out of me. > > Namaste, > Julie > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 3 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:12:54 +0100 > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > Bliss - remaining as the Self > > THE HEART > > Questioner: How is the mind to dive into the Heart? > > Bhagavan Ramana: The mind now sees itself diversified in the universe. > If the diversity is not manifest, it remains in its own essence. That is > the Heart. The Heart is the only truth. Mind is only a transient phase. > Because people identify with the body, they see the world as separate from > themselves. This wrong identification arises because they have lost their > moorings and swerved from their original state. You are now advised to > give up all these false ideas, and to trace your source and remain as the > Self. In that state there are no differences and no questions will arise. > All the Sastras are intended simply to make us retrace our steps to the > original source. There is no need to gain anything. We must simply give > up false ideas and useless accretions. Instead of doing this, we try to > catch hold of something strange and mysterious, believing that happiness > lies elsewhere. That is the mistake. If one remains as the Self, there is > Bliss. People probably think that being quiet does not bring about the > state of Bliss. That is due to their ignorance. > > > >From the section: "THE HEART" (page 36-37) in the book, "MORE DOUBTS AND > 100 MORE ANSWERS ," compiled and edited by A.R. Natarajan. Published by > Ramana Maharshi Centre for Learning, Bangalore, India. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 4 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:12:19 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > Re: A Prayer to God > > Hi Julie , > > thank you for your answer ; > > i am sure there are many who understand what i mean; > actually i was not talking about running lists and how to behave to > people and how to consider their attitudes , > it is all about truth , isn't it ? > it is about the egos on these lists who don't consider themselves > egos anymore , but the other one is the ego ; > > what about this ? > > i wouldn't like to bring Ramana's name in this , but i know > he didn't like those who installed themselves as teachers > and weren't Selfrealized. > To bring quotes about that ? > I am sure who has to find something will find. > > i am speaking about this aspect -the false Self-realized teachers on > the net .it is flourishing . how do you deal with it ? > the intellectual understanding makes victims. > > i might have only reacted against this phenomena as a human. > > and if my way is 'astray' as you say then that is what has to be and > it is alright with me. > > there is a way to get out nicely of this kind of interactions with > the false teachers - diplomacy ? wisdom ? how do you call this ? > > but i know people that have been hurt in the name of diplomacy > and wisdom of this kind. > what about that ? > what about being truely to oneself ? > > what about devotion and love for Ramana and praying to him > on a list dedicated to his teachings ? > And blessed by him ? > > do you find this astray ? > does Harsha find this astray ? > do the moderators find this astray ? > > My prayers are addressed to Sri Ramana Maharshi as my guru. > > If this is found astray on this list , i am ready to . > > thank you , > > vicki. > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 5 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:49:58 +0100 > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > to Vicki: the newcomers look > > Dear Vicki, > I am deeply moved about this sharing of you. As a newcomer one has perhaps a certain freshness of sight and impressions, something like an astonished child and is not yet too much involved. But the more I move here I also see the complexity of this kind of interaction, the different needs of people and also the "double-edged razors". > I see the crux in revealing oneself to others and suddenly and unwillingly - in the beginning perhaps unnoticed - playing a certain kind of ego-game. But nevertheless sharings are always human and a mostly unmoderated and unrestricted list with such a great number of members as Harshas will always be a kind of "spiritual potpourri". > > I do not like to judge over anyone's state of mind or realization or whatever. Simply I can't! Maybe some see themselves as realized and want to share their insights and teach others. In the beginning I also was more negative and quick in pressing the delete-botton, but meanwhile I see I can learn something. At moment I am learning to have a closer look - to read more carefully - and sometimes in the second reading things are not as they seem to be in the first reading. There is always the possibility to question back: what are you meaning? What is it what you really want to say? There is always the possibility that I have misunderstood something or not fully understood or that I see someone in a wrong light. The ways of expression are manyfold. Everyone is free to take what is of use for him/her and leave the rest aside. > > Dear Vicki, is it really as bad as you tell? That you must pray: "Please help me not to delude myself and others...." There may be misleadings and ego-games and .... You can't exclude such things or prevent that they may happen. Even in Sri Ramana's sorroundings there was a lot of it. One only can try to have a close look and question one's own mind and heart. And - in the end - being a Ramana devotee - we are at home. We also have every protection. Our part is more to be in touch with the inner silence. Everything else is not so much important. > > None prevents you from praying to God, to Ramana... - not even the "non-dualists" (if they are real ones). Praying is human. Devotees always prayed to Sri Ramana - what a lot of prayer is and was there! And why not? (I also like to pray to Ramana - sometimes very childlike.) > > Oh yes, I know, I have not your experiences with mailing-lists and perhaps a too positive sight. But this is still the newcomers look. > > Love and peace to you and everyone here > Gabriele [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 6 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:03:51 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > thank you , Gabriele ; > it never happened to me to read one of your answers and not > feel your kindness; > > i use to pray to Ramana , and i was sincere when i brought this > here ,however childish that might sound ; > and my pray to Ramana was brought on a Ramana devotee list, > i am not going on other lists with my devotion and thoughts > were i know how strange they might sound. > > so i would kindly wish to ask Harsha to let me know > whether i might continue to express freely my love and devotion > to my guru , as knowing that this would be considered > astray creates me a problem - am i in the right place ? > > i know that among the devotees it is not astray at all > to pray to one's guru and i do this occasionally. > > if i take this list as a generally Advaita list , > alright , o.k., i know. but i take it as Ramana's home. > > i may be wrong , it might have a more general character , > and then i am misunderstanding , and then i can decide by myself > what is to be done. > > in my way i wanted to bring to people's attention the > existing fact of false Selfrealized teachers on the net . > > it might be that i was wrong and should have bring in > the subject with more delicacy . > that doesn't mean i don't continue to pray to > Ramana in my heart - please take care of me , please don't let > me be false , please keep my way to you clean of what is untrue. > > i shall always continue to pray to Ramana in my heart , > my question is again - if this is found astray here , > then i find myself in front of a problem - where am i wrong ? > > i am in touch with many people , private and on other lists, > who find these things correct , and they retired actually to > meditation and self-enquiry and contemplating the words of the > sages , and find praying to Ramana, devotion and self-enquiry > perfectly alright; urrender to one's guru it is perfectly alright > and this subject is much discussed and approved in all ancient > scriptures. the love for one's guru it is only very natural. > > i find this also perfectly alright on a Ramana list and not perfectly > alright on an Astrology list , let's say. > > so where am i wrong ? > > should i retire to a devotees list as RamanaMaharshi only ? > > i know i always wanted to share and be in touch with like-minded > people , i might be mistaken , and i am asking myself again , > is really a Ramana Maharshi's devotee's place on this list ? > are we a family of like-minded people here loving truth ? > i do not want debates , contradictions , phylosophical > interpretations , i find all this unnecessary ; other enjoys them ? > alright ; i love Ramana , i trust him and want to share his words. > i never wanted more than that , then i wanted to share a worry, > about the intelectual understanding danger , which exists. > > > Asking apologizes to Harsha , i trust he understands me > and will try to explain , as i know i am where i am and where my > destiny wanted me to be , and i trust Harsha knows that > for a devotee there is never a left or a right when it is > about Ramana ; as it is Ramana who decides , not me , > and he will not let go of me .Call this faith , or belief , whatever. > "If you let go of Bhagavan , Bhagavan will never let go of you", > he said , and this is true, guru Ramana never lets go of any > of his devotees. > > Dear Harsha , > I sincerely consider that my love , devotion and surrender > to Ramana is not at all astray on another Ramana Maharshi' devotee's > list. i might make mistakes , kindly please correct, > thank you , > vicki. > > > > > > > > Dear Vicki, > > I am deeply moved about this sharing of you. As a newcomer one has > perhaps a certain freshness of sight and impressions, something like > an astonished child and is not yet too much involved. But the more I > move here I also see the complexity of this kind of interaction, the > different needs of people and also the "double-edged razors". > > I see the crux in revealing oneself to others and suddenly and > unwillingly - in the beginning perhaps unnoticed - playing a certain > kind of ego-game. But nevertheless sharings are always human and a > mostly unmoderated and unrestricted list with such a great number of > members as Harshas will always be a kind of "spiritual potpourri". > > > > I do not like to judge over anyone's state of mind or realization > or whatever. Simply I can't! Maybe some see themselves as realized > and want to share their insights and teach others. In the beginning I > also was more negative and quick in pressing the delete-botton, but > meanwhile I see I can learn something. At moment I am learning to > have a closer look - to read more carefully - and sometimes in the > second reading things are not as they seem to be in the first > reading. There is always the possibility to question back: what are > you meaning? What is it what you really want to say? There is always > the possibility that I have misunderstood something or not fully > understood or that I see someone in a wrong light. The ways of > expression are manyfold. Everyone is free to take what is of use for > him/her and leave the rest aside. > > > > Dear Vicki, is it really as bad as you tell? That you must > pray: "Please help me not to delude myself and others...." There may > be misleadings and ego-games and .... You can't exclude such things > or prevent that they may happen. Even in Sri Ramana's sorroundings > there was a lot of it. One only can try to have a close look and > question one's own mind and heart. And - in the end - being a Ramana > devotee - we are at home. We also have every protection. Our part is > more to be in touch with the inner silence. Everything else is not so > much important. > > > > None prevents you from praying to God, to Ramana... - not even > the "non-dualists" (if they are real ones). Praying is human. > Devotees always prayed to Sri Ramana - what a lot of prayer is and > was there! And why not? (I also like to pray to Ramana - sometimes > very childlike.) > > > > Oh yes, I know, I have not your experiences with mailing-lists and > perhaps a too positive sight. But this is still the newcomers look. > > > > Love and peace to you and everyone here > > Gabriele > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 7 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:21:14 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > SURRENDER > > > > Surrender to the Master can be found in this century books as well in > the Upanishads , surrender to one's guru can be found in books and in > real life also , it happenes during one Master's bodily life and it > happens after his bodily life ; it happened to many , and it > happened to me. I dedicate my life , my mind , my thoughts, > my body ,my feelings ,my heart , my energy , my present , my future > and everything I might appear to have to the one of the most perfect > God incarnation that humankind has ever had; > I bow in devotion and love to Sri Ramana Maharshi > for the rest of my life and for ever. > His Grace for accepting me as one of his humble disciples is the > greatest reward that i was offered in this lifetime. > Loving You for ever ! > > _____________ > > > Surrender > ======== > > Surrender is the state of consciousness which is a condition > of discipleship . When the disciple realizes that his 'ego' - > personality - is only a small ripple on the surface of the infinite > ocean of the Self - or 'Overself' - which is reality , he > deliberately > begins to turn his attention away from it and tries to merge in > that 'all' which generally takes the form of the Master. > > That is why surrender to the Master is a necessary step towards > the ultimate goal , for it means the realization of the true Self or > God. > > =============================== > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu > =============================== > > > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 8 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:01:42 -0000 > "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > Dear Vicki: > In the past few days I have wondered how to say some of the things > you have said so well in your post this morning. Not so much > wondering about correctness on the list as i know Harsha loves Ramana > as much as I do, but about people proclaiming self realization. > > I like this list because I believe their are several people that are > far enough along to give inspiration truthfully and their honest > kindness and willingness assure me. > > Ramana's life was so beautiful and beyond reproach that to use his > name for hyprocrasy and self promotion thus leading others away from > his true nature is a great sin no matter how one intellectualizes > concerning it. > > The few moments a day that i have with him are the best that can be. > I love Sri Ramana and He fills my heart. > > Love, > Bobby G. > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 9 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:39:26 +0100 > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > prayer to Sri Ramana > > Dear Vicki, > I can't let you be like this. I hope you did not understand something wrong what I wrote. The point was not at all the fact that you pray to Sri Ramana. I say it very openly and clearly once again: I am also praying to Sri Ramana with words and without - sometimes very childlike. But the deepest prayer is the silence in the heart. > The point was, I felt so sorry for you, that you must pray like this to Sri Ramana: > "please help me not to dellude myself and others , please help me not to deceive > myself and others; i want nothing , nothing , nothing , i'd rather die alone > but please don't let me be like those people who take themselves for Selfrealized and > they are not, please help me not to end like any one of them." > > I see, dear Vicki, you are struggling against "false teachers" or teachers who think they are realized and are not. There may be many. There may also be many teachers, who say they are realized and really are! There may be others who say they are realizes and are partially, if that is possible. How can we judge? Only a Jnani can clearly see who is a Jnani and who not. But what is the problem for you personally? You are in the fold of Sri Ramana - one of the greatest teachers the world ever has seen - so nothing, really nothing can happen to you. It is alright to warn others to be careful. One really can get lost in the "internet-teacher-jungle". But is there any need to struggle like this ? And why need you pray: "help me not to end like any one of them?" Why should you end this way? Is there any serious danger for you to end this way? That it was what I meant. Not the fact that you are praying to Sri Ramana. > > Dear Vicki, your devotion to Ramana is very welcome here! Please believe!!! True, this list is more open as the Ramana-Maharshi-List and others and there are different opinions and ways. There are discussions and interpretations here, yes, sometimes even "struggles" and a kind of a "spiritual battlefield". Sometimes a good sense of humour is demanded. But this list is dedicated to Ramana and Harsha is one of the most serious Ramana-devotees. He surely will assure you, when he is back, that you are right here and your quotes, your devotion and surrender to Ramana are very welcome. > > And here is my prayer to Ramana: > > I bow to you, > my true Self, > Ramana. > Lead me back the way I came > so that you and I are one. > > Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya > > Love to you, Vicki > Gabriele [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 10 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:45:31 +0100 > "White Wolfe" <valemar.1 > Re: SURRENDER > > ....ah yes....st. paul said, "i die daily".....i start each morning with the > words....beloved, i surrender to you....i surrender my knowledge, realizing > that i lack wisdom; i surrender my desire, realizing that it is in need of > refinement; and i surrender my past, realizing that your forgiveness grants > me the grace to travel further up the sacred mountain one breath at a > time....^^~~~~~~ > > further up and further in, > > white wolfe > > - > "vioricail" <viorica > <> > Sunday, December 30, 2001 3:21 PM > SURRENDER > > > > > > > > Surrender to the Master can be found in this century books as well in > > the Upanishads , surrender to one's guru can be found in books and in > > real life also , it happenes during one Master's bodily life and it > > happens after his bodily life ; it happened to many , and it > > happened to me. I dedicate my life , my mind , my thoughts, > > my body ,my feelings ,my heart , my energy , my present , my future > > and everything I might appear to have to the one of the most perfect > > God incarnation that humankind has ever had; > > I bow in devotion and love to Sri Ramana Maharshi > > for the rest of my life and for ever. > > His Grace for accepting me as one of his humble disciples is the > > greatest reward that i was offered in this lifetime. > > Loving You for ever ! > > > > _____________ > > > > > > Surrender > > ======== > > > > Surrender is the state of consciousness which is a condition > > of discipleship . When the disciple realizes that his 'ego' - > > personality - is only a small ripple on the surface of the infinite > > ocean of the Self - or 'Overself' - which is reality , he > > deliberately > > begins to turn his attention away from it and tries to merge in > > that 'all' which generally takes the form of the Master. > > > > That is why surrender to the Master is a necessary step towards > > the ultimate goal , for it means the realization of the true Self or > > God. > > > > =============================== > > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu > > =============================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /join > > > > > > > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 11 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:48:08 -0000 > "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert > Re: SURRENDER > > Very beautiful, Vicki, thank you > Gabriele > > , "vioricail" <viorica@z...> wrote: > > > > > > Surrender to the Master can be found in this century books as well > in > > the Upanishads , surrender to one's guru can be found in books and > in > > real life also , it happenes during one Master's bodily life and it > > happens after his bodily life ; it happened to many , and it > > happened to me. I dedicate my life , my mind , my thoughts, > > my body ,my feelings ,my heart , my energy , my present , my future > > and everything I might appear to have to the one of the most > perfect > > God incarnation that humankind has ever had; > > I bow in devotion and love to Sri Ramana Maharshi > > for the rest of my life and for ever. > > His Grace for accepting me as one of his humble disciples is the > > greatest reward that i was offered in this lifetime. > > Loving You for ever ! > > > > _____________ > > > > > > Surrender > > ======== > > > > Surrender is the state of consciousness which is a condition > > of discipleship . When the disciple realizes that his 'ego' - > > personality - is only a small ripple on the surface of the infinite > > ocean of the Self - or 'Overself' - which is reality , he > > deliberately > > begins to turn his attention away from it and tries to merge in > > that 'all' which generally takes the form of the Master. > > > > That is why surrender to the Master is a necessary step towards > > the ultimate goal , for it means the realization of the true Self > or > > God. > > > > =============================== > > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu > > =============================== > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 12 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:01:32 +0100 > "White Wolfe" <valemar.1 > Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > > .....prayer is one of the dharma doors we are given....if, while in prayer, you meet a lamb on the road, slay it and make of it a penitential sacrifice and so find freedom from the past....eventually, the lamb will reveal itself to be a wolfe in sheep's clothing come to deceive you yet one more time.....if you meet a buddha on the road, kill him.....the only true teacher is found in the mirror of the beloved who resides in the empty cave of the sacred heart.....look within for the beloved.....then you will see that love manifests itself in all creation.....not in just this rose one or in just that bright stallion.....love is the archer, love is the bow, love is arrow, love is the fugitive hart....the sacred heart of the beloved is the source and ground of all creation....^^~~~~~~ > > further up and further in, > > white wolfe > - > Gabriele Ebert > > Sunday, December 30, 2001 4:39 PM > prayer to Sri Ramana > > > Dear Vicki, > I can't let you be like this. I hope you did not understand something wrong what I wrote. The point was not at all the fact that you pray to Sri Ramana. I say it very openly and clearly once again: I am also praying to Sri Ramana with words and without - sometimes very childlike. But the deepest prayer is the silence in the heart. > The point was, I felt so sorry for you, that you must pray like this to Sri Ramana: > "please help me not to dellude myself and others , please help me not to deceive > myself and others; i want nothing , nothing , nothing , i'd rather die alone > but please don't let me be like those people who take themselves for Selfrealized and > they are not, please help me not to end like any one of them." > > I see, dear Vicki, you are struggling against "false teachers" or teachers who think they are realized and are not. There may be many. There may also be many teachers, who say they are realized and really are! There may be others who say they are realizes and are partially, if that is possible. How can we judge? Only a Jnani can clearly see who is a Jnani and who not. But what is the problem for you personally? You are in the fold of Sri Ramana - one of the greatest teachers the world ever has seen - so nothing, really nothing can happen to you. It is alright to warn others to be careful. One really can get lost in the "internet-teacher-jungle". But is there any need to struggle like this ? And why need you pray: "help me not to end like any one of them?" Why should you end this way? Is there any serious danger for you to end this way? That it was what I meant. Not the fact that you are praying to Sri Ramana. > > Dear Vicki, your devotion to Ramana is very welcome here! Please believe!!! True, this list is more open as the Ramana-Maharshi-List and others and there are different opinions and ways. There are discussions and interpretations here, yes, sometimes even "struggles" and a kind of a "spiritual battlefield". Sometimes a good sense of humour is demanded. But this list is dedicated to Ramana and Harsha is one of the most serious Ramana-devotees. He surely will assure you, when he is back, that you are right here and your quotes, your devotion and surrender to Ramana are very welcome. > > And here is my prayer to Ramana: > > I bow to you, > my true Self, > Ramana. > Lead me back the way I came > so that you and I are one. > > Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya > > Love to you, Vicki > Gabriele > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 13 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:03:57 -0000 > "fewtch" <coresite > Re: SURRENDER > > > This seems all well and good, but doesn't the "I" which is > surrendering stick around, no matter how surrendered it may be? > > There is a non-surrendered "I" before, and a surrendered "I" after... > what real difference is there? > > Just wondering, > > Tim > > , "White Wolfe" <valemar.1@h...> wrote: > > ....ah yes....st. paul said, "i die daily".....i start each morning > > with the words....beloved, i surrender to you....i surrender my > > knowledge, realizing that i lack wisdom; i surrender my desire, > > realizing that it is in need of refinement; and i surrender my > > past, realizing that your forgiveness grants me the grace to travel > > further up the sacred mountain one breath at a > > time....^^~~~~~~ > > > > further up and further in, > > > > white wolfe > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 14 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:44:35 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > > > > Dear Vicki, > > I can't let you be like this. > > dear Gabriele , > you are so nice with this 'I can't let you like this.' ! > don't worry , i didn't misunderstand you ; > that is alright , i suppose that my past struggles with people > wishing to play the master with me tired me , that is all; > there are plenty ; people enjoying ; they are enjoying , > but i was never enjoying , and i was waiting there > in my way for the moment when those people realized that they were > wrong ; and this never happened ; so i had to struggle to free > myself from a hypothetical master-disciple relationship > that never existed in the first place, not only once. > they tired me and made my Ramana postings on lists that were not > for devotees quite an unpleasant event ; > > the Master is always the same for me , Ramana of course ; > > who is happy ? you know who ? > Me! > > I love you , > vicki. > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 15 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:45:14 -0800 > Wim Borsboom <wim > RE: Re: SURRENDER > > After surrender... one is done > > one is oneself, all in one, one in all > > So get it done and over with, do not hold yourself back, there is no reason > to find anything so objectionable as to not surrender to it. > > One finds oneself in any thing, > > 'what-and-who-so-ever' > > "As long as one is convinced that one has a special and personal reason to > hold on to one's difficulties, one will not recover one's innate freedom." > > If you need to, surrender to the 'pissing pole' :-) > > It is the hardest, but it is also the end of it... > > Without it there is no surrender whatsoever...only a semblance... > > Love, Wim > (The tiniest chip on the shoulder can go, has to, not one of them is worth > holding... That is, if you say, that you want moksha.) > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 16 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:02:53 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > > > who is happy ? you know who ? > > Me! > > and the 'who am I?' is of course self-enquiry > as Sri Ramana taught it in the first place . > the self-enquiry that I am supposed to practice , > not that another is supposed to enquire an another > and ask back over the net " who is happy ?" . > No. > It is Sri Ramana Maharshi's self enquiry method , > true, pure,clean , perfect ,powerful. no game. > ever since i am an active member on this list and > others as well, the enquirers never noticed i do not > do this to people , but what i did was to post Sri Ramana's > teachings on self-enquiry only. > > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 17 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:12:41 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > Re: SURRENDER > > > If you need to, surrender to the 'pissing pole' :-) > > > > It is the hardest, but it is also the end of it... > > > > > Love, Wim > > Hi Wim , > > may i ask you whom you sent to that place you sent ? > > whether it is me or somebody else , > you sent him/her with all your "Love," > > is this serious ? is this a game ? > is this a joke ? > is this you thinking this way ? > sincerely wishing to understand , > as of course i begin to wonder again > whether my place is still here as long as i see no connection > between Ramana's teachings and your answer , > > vicki. > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 18 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:35:55 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > Re: SURRENDER - serious > > , "vioricail" <viorica@z...> wrote: > > > If you need to, surrender to the 'pissing pole' :-) > > > > > > It is the hardest, but it is also the end of it... > > > > > > > > Love, Wim > > > > I use this opportunity to remind with all the > boring seriousity that i am able of sometimes , > that there exist a Ramana Maharshi list for devotees > where people are not answered the way Wim did. > > URL: RamanaMaharshi > > But they are answered in the spirit of the scriptures > and with all the care ,delicacy and concern. > > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 19 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:42:05 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > Hi Bobby , > > i always knew there are on this list members who feel like you ! > Yes, yes, those to whom Ramana fills their heart , > those who really love the postings with his teachings; > > i am a little puzzled by those who do not love his teachings > and to a list dedicated to Ramana's teachings anyway , > that is something that i want to understand ... > > do you know why ? > > thank you Bobby... > > > > Ramana's life was so beautiful and beyond reproach that to use his > > name for hyprocrasy and self promotion thus leading others away > from > > his true nature is a great sin no matter how one intellectualizes > > concerning it. > > > > The few moments a day that i have with him are the best that can > be. > > I love Sri Ramana and He fills my heart. > > > > Love, > > Bobby G. > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 20 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:19:06 -0000 > "fewtch" <coresite > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > Hi Vicki, > > My understanding is that is a Satsangh of a devotee to > Ramana's teachings (Harsha), but isn't specifically dedicated solely > to the teachings of Ramana -- isn't there a RamanaMaharshi group with > that purpose? > > Somebody please correct me if i'm wrong... > > Love, > > Tim > > , "vioricail" <viorica@z...> wrote: > > i am a little puzzled by those who do not love his teachings > > and to a list dedicated to Ramana's teachings anyway , > > that is something that i want to understand ... > > > > do you know why ? > > > > thank you Bobby... > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 21 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:18:11 -0000 > "fewtch" <coresite > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > Hi Vicki, > > My understanding is that is a Satsangh of a devotee to > Ramana's teachings (Harsha), but isn't specifically dedicated solely > to the teachings of Ramana -- isn't there a RamanaMaharshi group with > that purpose? > > Somebody please correct me if i'm wrong... > > Love, > > Tim > > , "vioricail" <viorica@z...> wrote: > > i am a little puzzled by those who do not love his teachings > > and to a list dedicated to Ramana's teachings anyway , > > that is something that i want to understand ... > > > > do you know why ? > > > > thank you Bobby... > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 22 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:30:47 EST > leteegee > Re: Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > In a message dated 12/30/2001 1:56:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, > viorica writes: > > > > i am a little puzzled by those who do not love his teachings > > and to a list dedicated to Ramana's teachings anyway , > > that is something that i want to understand ... > > > > do you know why ? > > Hi Vicki... > > I'm here because I love being around Harsha and other good friends I've made > through-out the years. > > You also wrote in another post: > > i shall always continue to pray to Ramana in my heart , > > my question is again - if this is found astray here , > > then i find myself in front of a problem - where am i wrong ? > > > You aren't wrong! If you can't pray freely to Ramana, > then I don't want to be here either. > > I'm not a Ramana devotee > but I've so much enjoyed getting to know him > and his wisdom and grace > through you, Harsha, and others. > > I have no books of his to directly quote, > but I do recall he said, something to the effect of... > > Don't look for truth; look for your fears, your illusions. > Those are what is standing in the way to what is true. > > You are doing exactly that... and I hope we all still are! > > So glad you are here. > > Love, > xxxtg > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 23 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:46:17 -0800 > Julie Isaac <jei > Re: A Prayer to God > > Hi Vicki, > > Yes, I understood that you were concerned with those who consider themselves > Self-Realized, but who are not. And I know how easily one can use the > "philosophy" of non-duality to support this self-delusion. Most of these > people are well-meaning and passionate about spirituality. Personally, I'm > wary of anyone who announces that they are AWAKE and KNOW THE TRUTH. They > may or may not. I rarely ever know, unless their love and peace are so > strong, so obvious, that it never even occurs to me to doubt them. And that > is RARE indeed!!!! > > Whenever I'm at Satsang, whenever I'm listening to a "teacher," while > listening to their words, I'm listening even more closely for my heart's > response. I let the teacher within my own heart tell me if there is anything > I can learn from this person. If there is, I stay, for as long as my heart > tells me to. I don't feel that I can, or that's its even my place to judge > someone else's state of awareness. I can only judge whether I believe > someone has something to teach me. And that someone doesn't always have to > be Self-realized. I accept truth wherever I find it. And if I look and > listen closely enough, I find that there's truth all around me. > > Yes, I know that one should be able to trust one's teacher. They are > claiming to share TRUTH with us. And we are thirsting for the truth. Are > they giving us water or sand? I don't know. All I know is, if I accept their > gift, I accept responsibility for it. My inner guidance takes me to a > teacher for the wisdom that they share (even if a teacher is only expressing > intellectual understanding, if their wisdom opens my heart then I've > benefited greatly) or to more deeply learn to look within my own Self for > truth. Perhaps I'm being too easy on these false teachers, but if there > truly are no mistakes, then maybe they have something to teach the students > who come to them, even if what they have to teach is not pure or deeply > realized. Maybe they are here to teach discernment. Maybe not. I don't know. > > It is interesting to note how different all the teachers are who "teach" > Advaita Vedanta. (I'm sure it applies to other teachings as well, but this > is the path I know.) When you look at those who claim to be Self-Realized > in Sri Ramana Maharshi's lineage, and you see how incredibly different their > expression of this path, it becomes clear that some semblance of the > personality remains. Individuality lives within oneness. Perhaps it's this > remaining individuality that attracts us to a teacher, to someone who seems > to "speak our language." Perhaps that's why we may be attracted to a false > teacher. But if our thirst for truth is strong enough then we, at some > point, will recognize that the false teacher is not quenching our thirst, > and we will go deeper within ourselves, and, at the same time, find an outer > teacher who is more worthy of our respect and devotion. > > I know it took me a lot of years and many false steps to be ready to open to > Ramana and this way of being. I honor my journey. All of it. Every mistake > I've made. Every bit of wisdom that has been gifted to me. Every teacher, > false and true. > > <<and if my way is 'astray' as you say then that is what has to be and > it is alright with me.>> > > I'm sorry that you took my words this way. I never meant to imply in any way > that you've gone astray. I don't believe that for a second. I'm not telling > you WHAT IS, I'm simply sharing my experience with you, for whatever it's > worth. > > Namaste, > Julie > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 24 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:58:02 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > Hi Tim , > > i understand this the same way as you do now , > but there was a time when i made no distinction > between this list and the devotees list ; > > promissing everybody to respect the distinction, > > nevertheless i would like to ask your > understanding that i always loved posting Ramana's words and > i always had to fight my way out of discussions > and controverses , as Ramana's words are enough to me the way > they are, and i feel i don't want my participation to have > anything in common with struggle,fighting and unpleasant > feelings on this list,on any part , > > there are people who can accept and there are people > who doubt, they have the right to doubt as > i know my way is to fully trust Ramana, > > i respect other people's doubts,beliefs,faith,understanding, > insight,realization, please respect mine , > > vicki. > > > > Hi Vicki, > > > > My understanding is that is a Satsangh of a devotee > to > > Ramana's teachings (Harsha), but isn't specifically dedicated > solely > > to the teachings of Ramana -- isn't there a RamanaMaharshi group > with > > that purpose? > > > > Somebody please correct me if i'm wrong... > > > > Love, > > > > Tim > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 25 > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:40:14 -0000 > "vioricail" <viorica > Re: A Prayer to God > > > Hi Julie, > thank you for your answer ; > that clarifies a lot of things and makes me feel > that there was a point where we misunderstood each other > and that point is overcome. > > it is not that we do not have what to learn from > a teacher who is not Self-realized in the strict sense > of the scriptures , there can be much common sense and wisdom > in a human being and we can learn much from such a teacher ; > > > but i had some exchanges & experiences with people > who literally caught my emails and played the teacher > with their context and they caused me at the time > unpleasantness ; i am posting on the list of devotees and i am > posting sometimes on lists who are not for devotees, > and in my beginnings i was unprepared to make any differences > between lists; > Ramana devotees are happy to see his words again and again, > don't doubt, don't debate, don't make interpretations, > don't analyze his words , but read again and again with love, > and fully accept,having chosen a path - self enquiry , surrender > or both. > On the other side , here i am , expecting the same attitude > on any list on which Ramana Maharshi appears on the > group presentation. So i had to learn to differentiate between > lists , as i took that by default Ramana's teachings are > absolutely and fully accepted without questioning on any list > as the case is with the devotees. > > when i understood where i was mistaking , i was still > making another mistake: i considered that any member of that list > had to know that i have already accepted everything as Ramana > said and i needed no debates about it . so i always entered > dialogs about Ramana's teachings only from reasons of courtesy > to answer and not because i had any doubt or wanted the debate > or wanted to convince somebody to think as i do or to accept > what i do. > > and trying to be polite in my way , not only posting and > dissapearing ,i found myself trapped in endless dialog that > to me was unnecessary so it became a struggle to get out of it; > i suppose i should have told those people on the spot - > "why do you enquire me ? why do you not enquire yourself ? > why do you enquire other ? i do not wish to play , > to me this teaching is my life , not a game , please skip > me out of it." but instead of saying , i struggled to go out > someway and i found myself asking myself - why i am doing > this ? i want only to share with whomever feels that loves > this words and find them useful,why do i have to pass this ? > > and other interactions too that clearly showed that > that individual wanted to display his knowledge,understanding, > superiority; so i had to 'swim' among such 'teachers' > not only once ; > > so at the end of this year , i might feel a little tired by > posting Ramana on lists not dedicated to devotees; > > i might feel a little tired by these repeated declarations > that i am one of his devotees , as i thought that people > understood that that means 'peace ! peace ! give me peace! > i chosed already , i have my Master , please leave me alone, > we can be friends , but forget about a master-disciple > relationship, it is already decided and you cannot change it . > you can only annoy and bring damage to our relationship. > i am not doing this to you .why are you doing this to me?' > > so dear Julie , i was bringing in my experience of this year , > with assertive teachers that don't give up easily ; > > may they have peace and let other go peacefully on their ways > too, and may each one of us self-enquire oneself in one's > privacy and not turn this beautiful teaching into a game , > > surely i am not a game player , > > vicki. ______________________ > ______________________ > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2001 Report Share Posted December 31, 2001 .....gassho....it encourages the heart to know that other's travel the same path up the holy mountain as there are ten thousand ways to ascend the ever arising mountain......we are wayfarers but we are not alone on the journey beyond the transparent edge into the godhead.....i follow my beloved.....^^~~~~~~ further up and further in, white wolfe > Dearest White Wolf, your words are beautiful and open doorways within that > captures the light of dawn. You are a wonderful Being of Light . I do > enjoy all you say, such beauty. Thank you from my heart of hearts. > love > Jeannie > a Wayfarer > - > <> > <> > Sunday, December 30, 2001 5:10 PM > Digest Number 1537 > > > > /join > > > > > > > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > > > ------ > > > > There are 25 messages in this issue. > > > > Topics in this digest: > > > > 1. Jumping Into the River of Life > > Julie Isaac <jei > > 2. Re: A Prayer to God > > Julie Isaac <jei > > 3. Bliss - remaining as the Self > > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > > 4. Re: A Prayer to God > > "vioricail" <viorica > > 5. to Vicki: the newcomers look > > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > > 6. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > "vioricail" <viorica > > 7. SURRENDER > > "vioricail" <viorica > > 8. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg > > 9. prayer to Sri Ramana > > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > > 10. Re: SURRENDER > > "White Wolfe" <valemar.1 > > 11. Re: SURRENDER > > "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert > > 12. Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > > "White Wolfe" <valemar.1 > > 13. Re: SURRENDER > > "fewtch" <coresite > > 14. Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > > "vioricail" <viorica > > 15. RE: Re: SURRENDER > > Wim Borsboom <wim > > 16. Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > > "vioricail" <viorica > > 17. Re: SURRENDER > > "vioricail" <viorica > > 18. Re: SURRENDER - serious > > "vioricail" <viorica > > 19. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > "vioricail" <viorica > > 20. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > "fewtch" <coresite > > 21. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > "fewtch" <coresite > > 22. Re: Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > leteegee > > 23. Re: A Prayer to God > > Julie Isaac <jei > > 24. Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > "vioricail" <viorica > > 25. Re: A Prayer to God > > "vioricail" <viorica > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 1 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:44:27 -0800 > > Julie Isaac <jei > > Jumping Into the River of Life > > > > Well gang, I'm on a roll tonight. Here's another one: > > > > While debate points still pop easily to mind, I find that the desire to > > defend my own beliefs is fading. They're only beliefs, after all. Shadows > on > > the screen of consciousness that obscure the truth more than reveal it. > The > > only way to remove these shadows is to remove the beliefs. > > > > What are beliefs, but memories of past thoughts and conclusions. What > would > > it be like to meet every moment with the innocence of a newborn baby? > > Without expectation or preconception? To erase knowledge from the mind and > > meet life from a place of openness and wonder? To "not know" and revel in > > not knowing? To embrace Mystery? > > > > More and more I long for this. Not as an escape (because knowing is the > > safer choice), but as a desire for authenticity. Truth is not what is seen > > or heard or known, it's the ground of being. Yes, that's a belief!! But, > > it's also a longing. A longing to dive straight into what is. To dance > > directly with life. I'm tired of the middleman, the gatekeeper, my > thoughts. > > I want to jump into the river of life and let the current carry me. No, it > > won't carry me away; it's not a means of escape. It's the end of > resistance. > > Letting go. Surrender. > > > > Namaste, > > Julie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 2 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:01:48 -0800 > > Julie Isaac <jei > > Re: A Prayer to God > > > > Hi Vicki, > > > > Beliefs aren't damage, they're just beliefs. On this, or any other > spiritual > > path, it's easy to mistake what you've studied and gained some insight > about > > for realization. But, at some point, even non-dual philosophy is seen as > > merely another set of beliefs. Another "thing" to let go of. > > > > At times, I skim the surface of Advaita; my fascination with its > philosophy > > blocking me from really resting in what is. While at other times, Advaita > > pulls me deep into my own heart. How do I know the difference? I don't. > I'm > > constantly aware that my perception is faulty; that what "feels" true, may > > not be true. So, I simply do my best to be honest and open and not worry > > about coming to conclusions about whether any particular insight is > ABSOLUTE > > TRUTH or not. I try to stay alert and aware, but with a light touch. I'm > not > > as interested in claiming any particular insight as THE TRUTH, as I am in > > saying that this is where I'm at--in this moment. I trust the truth of my > > experience, always. It's my perception about my experience that isn't > always > > trustworthy. > > > > Running a quote list, myself, I worry about leading others astray in the > > same way that you do. I know how easy it is to get lost in philosophy. But > I > > feel right doing what I'm doing and I trust that my members are exactly > > where they need to be. Is this wisdom or naivete? Beats the heck out of > me. > > > > Namaste, > > Julie > > > > > > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 3 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:12:54 +0100 > > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > > Bliss - remaining as the Self > > > > THE HEART > > > > Questioner: How is the mind to dive into the Heart? > > > > Bhagavan Ramana: The mind now sees itself diversified in the universe. > > If the diversity is not manifest, it remains in its own essence. That is > > the Heart. The Heart is the only truth. Mind is only a transient phase. > > Because people identify with the body, they see the world as separate from > > themselves. This wrong identification arises because they have lost their > > moorings and swerved from their original state. You are now advised to > > give up all these false ideas, and to trace your source and remain as the > > Self. In that state there are no differences and no questions will arise. > > All the Sastras are intended simply to make us retrace our steps to the > > original source. There is no need to gain anything. We must simply give > > up false ideas and useless accretions. Instead of doing this, we try to > > catch hold of something strange and mysterious, believing that happiness > > lies elsewhere. That is the mistake. If one remains as the Self, there > is > > Bliss. People probably think that being quiet does not bring about the > > state of Bliss. That is due to their ignorance. > > > > > > >From the section: "THE HEART" (page 36-37) in the book, "MORE DOUBTS AND > > 100 MORE ANSWERS ," compiled and edited by A.R. Natarajan. Published by > > Ramana Maharshi Centre for Learning, Bangalore, India. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 4 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:12:19 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > Re: A Prayer to God > > > > Hi Julie , > > > > thank you for your answer ; > > > > i am sure there are many who understand what i mean; > > actually i was not talking about running lists and how to behave to > > people and how to consider their attitudes , > > it is all about truth , isn't it ? > > it is about the egos on these lists who don't consider themselves > > egos anymore , but the other one is the ego ; > > > > what about this ? > > > > i wouldn't like to bring Ramana's name in this , but i know > > he didn't like those who installed themselves as teachers > > and weren't Selfrealized. > > To bring quotes about that ? > > I am sure who has to find something will find. > > > > i am speaking about this aspect -the false Self-realized teachers on > > the net .it is flourishing . how do you deal with it ? > > the intellectual understanding makes victims. > > > > i might have only reacted against this phenomena as a human. > > > > and if my way is 'astray' as you say then that is what has to be and > > it is alright with me. > > > > there is a way to get out nicely of this kind of interactions with > > the false teachers - diplomacy ? wisdom ? how do you call this ? > > > > but i know people that have been hurt in the name of diplomacy > > and wisdom of this kind. > > what about that ? > > what about being truely to oneself ? > > > > what about devotion and love for Ramana and praying to him > > on a list dedicated to his teachings ? > > And blessed by him ? > > > > do you find this astray ? > > does Harsha find this astray ? > > do the moderators find this astray ? > > > > My prayers are addressed to Sri Ramana Maharshi as my guru. > > > > If this is found astray on this list , i am ready to . > > > > thank you , > > > > vicki. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 5 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:49:58 +0100 > > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > > to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > > Dear Vicki, > > I am deeply moved about this sharing of you. As a newcomer one has perhaps > a certain freshness of sight and impressions, something like an astonished > child and is not yet too much involved. But the more I move here I also see > the complexity of this kind of interaction, the different needs of people > and also the "double-edged razors". > > I see the crux in revealing oneself to others and suddenly and > unwillingly - in the beginning perhaps unnoticed - playing a certain kind of > ego-game. But nevertheless sharings are always human and a mostly > unmoderated and unrestricted list with such a great number of members as > Harshas will always be a kind of "spiritual potpourri". > > > > I do not like to judge over anyone's state of mind or realization or > whatever. Simply I can't! Maybe some see themselves as realized and want to > share their insights and teach others. In the beginning I also was more > negative and quick in pressing the delete-botton, but meanwhile I see I can > learn something. At moment I am learning to have a closer look - to read > more carefully - and sometimes in the second reading things are not as they > seem to be in the first reading. There is always the possibility to question > back: what are you meaning? What is it what you really want to say? There is > always the possibility that I have misunderstood something or not fully > understood or that I see someone in a wrong light. The ways of expression > are manyfold. Everyone is free to take what is of use for him/her and leave > the rest aside. > > > > Dear Vicki, is it really as bad as you tell? That you must pray: "Please > help me not to delude myself and others...." There may be misleadings and > ego-games and .... You can't exclude such things or prevent that they may > happen. Even in Sri Ramana's sorroundings there was a lot of it. One only > can try to have a close look and question one's own mind and heart. And - in > the end - being a Ramana devotee - we are at home. We also have every > protection. Our part is more to be in touch with the inner silence. > Everything else is not so much important. > > > > None prevents you from praying to God, to Ramana... - not even the > "non-dualists" (if they are real ones). Praying is human. Devotees always > prayed to Sri Ramana - what a lot of prayer is and was there! And why not? > (I also like to pray to Ramana - sometimes very childlike.) > > > > Oh yes, I know, I have not your experiences with mailing-lists and perhaps > a too positive sight. But this is still the newcomers look. > > > > Love and peace to you and everyone here > > Gabriele > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 6 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:03:51 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > > > > thank you , Gabriele ; > > it never happened to me to read one of your answers and not > > feel your kindness; > > > > i use to pray to Ramana , and i was sincere when i brought this > > here ,however childish that might sound ; > > and my pray to Ramana was brought on a Ramana devotee list, > > i am not going on other lists with my devotion and thoughts > > were i know how strange they might sound. > > > > so i would kindly wish to ask Harsha to let me know > > whether i might continue to express freely my love and devotion > > to my guru , as knowing that this would be considered > > astray creates me a problem - am i in the right place ? > > > > i know that among the devotees it is not astray at all > > to pray to one's guru and i do this occasionally. > > > > if i take this list as a generally Advaita list , > > alright , o.k., i know. but i take it as Ramana's home. > > > > i may be wrong , it might have a more general character , > > and then i am misunderstanding , and then i can decide by myself > > what is to be done. > > > > in my way i wanted to bring to people's attention the > > existing fact of false Selfrealized teachers on the net . > > > > it might be that i was wrong and should have bring in > > the subject with more delicacy . > > that doesn't mean i don't continue to pray to > > Ramana in my heart - please take care of me , please don't let > > me be false , please keep my way to you clean of what is untrue. > > > > i shall always continue to pray to Ramana in my heart , > > my question is again - if this is found astray here , > > then i find myself in front of a problem - where am i wrong ? > > > > i am in touch with many people , private and on other lists, > > who find these things correct , and they retired actually to > > meditation and self-enquiry and contemplating the words of the > > sages , and find praying to Ramana, devotion and self-enquiry > > perfectly alright; urrender to one's guru it is perfectly alright > > and this subject is much discussed and approved in all ancient > > scriptures. the love for one's guru it is only very natural. > > > > i find this also perfectly alright on a Ramana list and not perfectly > > alright on an Astrology list , let's say. > > > > so where am i wrong ? > > > > should i retire to a devotees list as RamanaMaharshi only ? > > > > i know i always wanted to share and be in touch with like-minded > > people , i might be mistaken , and i am asking myself again , > > is really a Ramana Maharshi's devotee's place on this list ? > > are we a family of like-minded people here loving truth ? > > i do not want debates , contradictions , phylosophical > > interpretations , i find all this unnecessary ; other enjoys them ? > > alright ; i love Ramana , i trust him and want to share his words. > > i never wanted more than that , then i wanted to share a worry, > > about the intelectual understanding danger , which exists. > > > > > > Asking apologizes to Harsha , i trust he understands me > > and will try to explain , as i know i am where i am and where my > > destiny wanted me to be , and i trust Harsha knows that > > for a devotee there is never a left or a right when it is > > about Ramana ; as it is Ramana who decides , not me , > > and he will not let go of me .Call this faith , or belief , whatever. > > "If you let go of Bhagavan , Bhagavan will never let go of you", > > he said , and this is true, guru Ramana never lets go of any > > of his devotees. > > > > Dear Harsha , > > I sincerely consider that my love , devotion and surrender > > to Ramana is not at all astray on another Ramana Maharshi' devotee's > > list. i might make mistakes , kindly please correct, > > thank you , > > vicki. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vicki, > > > I am deeply moved about this sharing of you. As a newcomer one has > > perhaps a certain freshness of sight and impressions, something like > > an astonished child and is not yet too much involved. But the more I > > move here I also see the complexity of this kind of interaction, the > > different needs of people and also the "double-edged razors". > > > I see the crux in revealing oneself to others and suddenly and > > unwillingly - in the beginning perhaps unnoticed - playing a certain > > kind of ego-game. But nevertheless sharings are always human and a > > mostly unmoderated and unrestricted list with such a great number of > > members as Harshas will always be a kind of "spiritual potpourri". > > > > > > I do not like to judge over anyone's state of mind or realization > > or whatever. Simply I can't! Maybe some see themselves as realized > > and want to share their insights and teach others. In the beginning I > > also was more negative and quick in pressing the delete-botton, but > > meanwhile I see I can learn something. At moment I am learning to > > have a closer look - to read more carefully - and sometimes in the > > second reading things are not as they seem to be in the first > > reading. There is always the possibility to question back: what are > > you meaning? What is it what you really want to say? There is always > > the possibility that I have misunderstood something or not fully > > understood or that I see someone in a wrong light. The ways of > > expression are manyfold. Everyone is free to take what is of use for > > him/her and leave the rest aside. > > > > > > Dear Vicki, is it really as bad as you tell? That you must > > pray: "Please help me not to delude myself and others...." There may > > be misleadings and ego-games and .... You can't exclude such things > > or prevent that they may happen. Even in Sri Ramana's sorroundings > > there was a lot of it. One only can try to have a close look and > > question one's own mind and heart. And - in the end - being a Ramana > > devotee - we are at home. We also have every protection. Our part is > > more to be in touch with the inner silence. Everything else is not so > > much important. > > > > > > None prevents you from praying to God, to Ramana... - not even > > the "non-dualists" (if they are real ones). Praying is human. > > Devotees always prayed to Sri Ramana - what a lot of prayer is and > > was there! And why not? (I also like to pray to Ramana - sometimes > > very childlike.) > > > > > > Oh yes, I know, I have not your experiences with mailing-lists and > > perhaps a too positive sight. But this is still the newcomers look. > > > > > > Love and peace to you and everyone here > > > Gabriele > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 7 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:21:14 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > SURRENDER > > > > > > > > Surrender to the Master can be found in this century books as well in > > the Upanishads , surrender to one's guru can be found in books and in > > real life also , it happenes during one Master's bodily life and it > > happens after his bodily life ; it happened to many , and it > > happened to me. I dedicate my life , my mind , my thoughts, > > my body ,my feelings ,my heart , my energy , my present , my future > > and everything I might appear to have to the one of the most perfect > > God incarnation that humankind has ever had; > > I bow in devotion and love to Sri Ramana Maharshi > > for the rest of my life and for ever. > > His Grace for accepting me as one of his humble disciples is the > > greatest reward that i was offered in this lifetime. > > Loving You for ever ! > > > > _____________ > > > > > > Surrender > > ======== > > > > Surrender is the state of consciousness which is a condition > > of discipleship . When the disciple realizes that his 'ego' - > > personality - is only a small ripple on the surface of the infinite > > ocean of the Self - or 'Overself' - which is reality , he > > deliberately > > begins to turn his attention away from it and tries to merge in > > that 'all' which generally takes the form of the Master. > > > > That is why surrender to the Master is a necessary step towards > > the ultimate goal , for it means the realization of the true Self or > > God. > > > > =============================== > > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu > > =============================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 8 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:01:42 -0000 > > "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg > > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > > Dear Vicki: > > In the past few days I have wondered how to say some of the things > > you have said so well in your post this morning. Not so much > > wondering about correctness on the list as i know Harsha loves Ramana > > as much as I do, but about people proclaiming self realization. > > > > I like this list because I believe their are several people that are > > far enough along to give inspiration truthfully and their honest > > kindness and willingness assure me. > > > > Ramana's life was so beautiful and beyond reproach that to use his > > name for hyprocrasy and self promotion thus leading others away from > > his true nature is a great sin no matter how one intellectualizes > > concerning it. > > > > The few moments a day that i have with him are the best that can be. > > I love Sri Ramana and He fills my heart. > > > > Love, > > Bobby G. > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 9 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:39:26 +0100 > > "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert > > prayer to Sri Ramana > > > > Dear Vicki, > > I can't let you be like this. I hope you did not understand something > wrong what I wrote. The point was not at all the fact that you pray to Sri > Ramana. I say it very openly and clearly once again: I am also praying to > Sri Ramana with words and without - sometimes very childlike. But the > deepest prayer is the silence in the heart. > > The point was, I felt so sorry for you, that you must pray like this to > Sri Ramana: > > "please help me not to dellude myself and others , please help me not to > deceive > > myself and others; i want nothing , nothing , nothing , i'd rather die > alone > > but please don't let me be like those people who take themselves for > Selfrealized and > > they are not, please help me not to end like any one of them." > > > > I see, dear Vicki, you are struggling against "false teachers" or teachers > who think they are realized and are not. There may be many. There may also > be many teachers, who say they are realized and really are! There may be > others who say they are realizes and are partially, if that is possible. How > can we judge? Only a Jnani can clearly see who is a Jnani and who not. But > what is the problem for you personally? You are in the fold of Sri Ramana - > one of the greatest teachers the world ever has seen - so nothing, really > nothing can happen to you. It is alright to warn others to be careful. One > really can get lost in the "internet-teacher-jungle". But is there any need > to struggle like this ? And why need you pray: "help me not to end like > any one of them?" Why should you end this way? Is there any serious danger > for you to end this way? That it was what I meant. Not the fact that you are > praying to Sri Ramana. > > > > Dear Vicki, your devotion to Ramana is very welcome here! Please > believe!!! True, this list is more open as the Ramana-Maharshi-List and > others and there are different opinions and ways. There are discussions and > interpretations here, yes, sometimes even "struggles" and a kind of a > "spiritual battlefield". Sometimes a good sense of humour is demanded. But > this list is dedicated to Ramana and Harsha is one of the most serious > Ramana-devotees. He surely will assure you, when he is back, that you are > right here and your quotes, your devotion and surrender to Ramana are very > welcome. > > > > And here is my prayer to Ramana: > > > > I bow to you, > > my true Self, > > Ramana. > > Lead me back the way I came > > so that you and I are one. > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya > > > > Love to you, Vicki > > Gabriele > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 10 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:45:31 +0100 > > "White Wolfe" <valemar.1 > > Re: SURRENDER > > > > ....ah yes....st. paul said, "i die daily".....i start each morning with > the > > words....beloved, i surrender to you....i surrender my knowledge, > realizing > > that i lack wisdom; i surrender my desire, realizing that it is in need of > > refinement; and i surrender my past, realizing that your forgiveness > grants > > me the grace to travel further up the sacred mountain one breath at a > > time....^^~~~~~~ > > > > further up and further in, > > > > white wolfe > > > > - > > "vioricail" <viorica > > <> > > Sunday, December 30, 2001 3:21 PM > > SURRENDER > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surrender to the Master can be found in this century books as well in > > > the Upanishads , surrender to one's guru can be found in books and in > > > real life also , it happenes during one Master's bodily life and it > > > happens after his bodily life ; it happened to many , and it > > > happened to me. I dedicate my life , my mind , my thoughts, > > > my body ,my feelings ,my heart , my energy , my present , my future > > > and everything I might appear to have to the one of the most perfect > > > God incarnation that humankind has ever had; > > > I bow in devotion and love to Sri Ramana Maharshi > > > for the rest of my life and for ever. > > > His Grace for accepting me as one of his humble disciples is the > > > greatest reward that i was offered in this lifetime. > > > Loving You for ever ! > > > > > > _____________ > > > > > > > > > Surrender > > > ======== > > > > > > Surrender is the state of consciousness which is a condition > > > of discipleship . When the disciple realizes that his 'ego' - > > > personality - is only a small ripple on the surface of the infinite > > > ocean of the Self - or 'Overself' - which is reality , he > > > deliberately > > > begins to turn his attention away from it and tries to merge in > > > that 'all' which generally takes the form of the Master. > > > > > > That is why surrender to the Master is a necessary step towards > > > the ultimate goal , for it means the realization of the true Self or > > > God. > > > > > > =============================== > > > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu > > > =============================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /join > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside > > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. > > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously > > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 11 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:48:08 -0000 > > "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert > > Re: SURRENDER > > > > Very beautiful, Vicki, thank you > > Gabriele > > > > , "vioricail" <viorica@z...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Surrender to the Master can be found in this century books as well > > in > > > the Upanishads , surrender to one's guru can be found in books and > > in > > > real life also , it happenes during one Master's bodily life and it > > > happens after his bodily life ; it happened to many , and it > > > happened to me. I dedicate my life , my mind , my thoughts, > > > my body ,my feelings ,my heart , my energy , my present , my future > > > and everything I might appear to have to the one of the most > > perfect > > > God incarnation that humankind has ever had; > > > I bow in devotion and love to Sri Ramana Maharshi > > > for the rest of my life and for ever. > > > His Grace for accepting me as one of his humble disciples is the > > > greatest reward that i was offered in this lifetime. > > > Loving You for ever ! > > > > > > _____________ > > > > > > > > > Surrender > > > ======== > > > > > > Surrender is the state of consciousness which is a condition > > > of discipleship . When the disciple realizes that his 'ego' - > > > personality - is only a small ripple on the surface of the infinite > > > ocean of the Self - or 'Overself' - which is reality , he > > > deliberately > > > begins to turn his attention away from it and tries to merge in > > > that 'all' which generally takes the form of the Master. > > > > > > That is why surrender to the Master is a necessary step towards > > > the ultimate goal , for it means the realization of the true Self > > or > > > God. > > > > > > =============================== > > > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu > > > =============================== > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 12 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:01:32 +0100 > > "White Wolfe" <valemar.1 > > Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > > > > .....prayer is one of the dharma doors we are given....if, while in > prayer, you meet a lamb on the road, slay it and make of it a penitential > sacrifice and so find freedom from the past....eventually, the lamb will > reveal itself to be a wolfe in sheep's clothing come to deceive you yet one > more time.....if you meet a buddha on the road, kill him.....the only true > teacher is found in the mirror of the beloved who resides in the empty cave > of the sacred heart.....look within for the beloved.....then you will see > that love manifests itself in all creation.....not in just this rose one or > in just that bright stallion.....love is the archer, love is the bow, love > is arrow, love is the fugitive hart....the sacred heart of the beloved is > the source and ground of all creation....^^~~~~~~ > > > > further up and further in, > > > > white wolfe > > - > > Gabriele Ebert > > > > Sunday, December 30, 2001 4:39 PM > > prayer to Sri Ramana > > > > > > Dear Vicki, > > I can't let you be like this. I hope you did not understand something > wrong what I wrote. The point was not at all the fact that you pray to Sri > Ramana. I say it very openly and clearly once again: I am also praying to > Sri Ramana with words and without - sometimes very childlike. But the > deepest prayer is the silence in the heart. > > The point was, I felt so sorry for you, that you must pray like this to > Sri Ramana: > > "please help me not to dellude myself and others , please help me not to > deceive > > myself and others; i want nothing , nothing , nothing , i'd rather die > alone > > but please don't let me be like those people who take themselves for > Selfrealized and > > they are not, please help me not to end like any one of them." > > > > I see, dear Vicki, you are struggling against "false teachers" or > teachers who think they are realized and are not. There may be many. There > may also be many teachers, who say they are realized and really are! There > may be others who say they are realizes and are partially, if that is > possible. How can we judge? Only a Jnani can clearly see who is a Jnani and > who not. But what is the problem for you personally? You are in the fold of > Sri Ramana - one of the greatest teachers the world ever has seen - so > nothing, really nothing can happen to you. It is alright to warn others to > be careful. One really can get lost in the "internet-teacher-jungle". But is > there any need to struggle like this ? And why need you pray: "help me not > to end like any one of them?" Why should you end this way? Is there any > serious danger for you to end this way? That it was what I meant. Not the > fact that you are praying to Sri Ramana. > > > > Dear Vicki, your devotion to Ramana is very welcome here! Please > believe!!! True, this list is more open as the Ramana-Maharshi-List and > others and there are different opinions and ways. There are discussions and > interpretations here, yes, sometimes even "struggles" and a kind of a > "spiritual battlefield". Sometimes a good sense of humour is demanded. But > this list is dedicated to Ramana and Harsha is one of the most serious > Ramana-devotees. He surely will assure you, when he is back, that you are > right here and your quotes, your devotion and surrender to Ramana are very > welcome. > > > > And here is my prayer to Ramana: > > > > I bow to you, > > my true Self, > > Ramana. > > Lead me back the way I came > > so that you and I are one. > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya > > > > Love to you, Vicki > > Gabriele > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > /join > > > > > > > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 13 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:03:57 -0000 > > "fewtch" <coresite > > Re: SURRENDER > > > > > > This seems all well and good, but doesn't the "I" which is > > surrendering stick around, no matter how surrendered it may be? > > > > There is a non-surrendered "I" before, and a surrendered "I" after... > > what real difference is there? > > > > Just wondering, > > > > Tim > > > > , "White Wolfe" <valemar.1@h...> wrote: > > > ....ah yes....st. paul said, "i die daily".....i start each morning > > > with the words....beloved, i surrender to you....i surrender my > > > knowledge, realizing that i lack wisdom; i surrender my desire, > > > realizing that it is in need of refinement; and i surrender my > > > past, realizing that your forgiveness grants me the grace to travel > > > further up the sacred mountain one breath at a > > > time....^^~~~~~~ > > > > > > further up and further in, > > > > > > white wolfe > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 14 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:44:35 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > > > > > > > Dear Vicki, > > > I can't let you be like this. > > > > dear Gabriele , > > you are so nice with this 'I can't let you like this.' ! > > don't worry , i didn't misunderstand you ; > > that is alright , i suppose that my past struggles with people > > wishing to play the master with me tired me , that is all; > > there are plenty ; people enjoying ; they are enjoying , > > but i was never enjoying , and i was waiting there > > in my way for the moment when those people realized that they were > > wrong ; and this never happened ; so i had to struggle to free > > myself from a hypothetical master-disciple relationship > > that never existed in the first place, not only once. > > they tired me and made my Ramana postings on lists that were not > > for devotees quite an unpleasant event ; > > > > the Master is always the same for me , Ramana of course ; > > > > who is happy ? you know who ? > > Me! > > > > I love you , > > vicki. > > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 15 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:45:14 -0800 > > Wim Borsboom <wim > > RE: Re: SURRENDER > > > > After surrender... one is done > > > > one is oneself, all in one, one in all > > > > So get it done and over with, do not hold yourself back, there is no > reason > > to find anything so objectionable as to not surrender to it. > > > > One finds oneself in any thing, > > > > 'what-and-who-so-ever' > > > > "As long as one is convinced that one has a special and personal reason to > > hold on to one's difficulties, one will not recover one's innate freedom." > > > > If you need to, surrender to the 'pissing pole' :-) > > > > It is the hardest, but it is also the end of it... > > > > Without it there is no surrender whatsoever...only a semblance... > > > > Love, Wim > > (The tiniest chip on the shoulder can go, has to, not one of them is worth > > holding... That is, if you say, that you want moksha.) > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001 > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 16 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:02:53 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > Re: prayer to Sri Ramana > > > > > who is happy ? you know who ? > > > Me! > > > > and the 'who am I?' is of course self-enquiry > > as Sri Ramana taught it in the first place . > > the self-enquiry that I am supposed to practice , > > not that another is supposed to enquire an another > > and ask back over the net " who is happy ?" . > > No. > > It is Sri Ramana Maharshi's self enquiry method , > > true, pure,clean , perfect ,powerful. no game. > > ever since i am an active member on this list and > > others as well, the enquirers never noticed i do not > > do this to people , but what i did was to post Sri Ramana's > > teachings on self-enquiry only. > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 17 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:12:41 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > Re: SURRENDER > > > > > If you need to, surrender to the 'pissing pole' :-) > > > > > > It is the hardest, but it is also the end of it... > > > > > > > > Love, Wim > > > > Hi Wim , > > > > may i ask you whom you sent to that place you sent ? > > > > whether it is me or somebody else , > > you sent him/her with all your "Love," > > > > is this serious ? is this a game ? > > is this a joke ? > > is this you thinking this way ? > > sincerely wishing to understand , > > as of course i begin to wonder again > > whether my place is still here as long as i see no connection > > between Ramana's teachings and your answer , > > > > vicki. > > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 18 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:35:55 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > Re: SURRENDER - serious > > > > , "vioricail" <viorica@z...> wrote: > > > > If you need to, surrender to the 'pissing pole' :-) > > > > > > > > It is the hardest, but it is also the end of it... > > > > > > > > > > > Love, Wim > > > > > > > I use this opportunity to remind with all the > > boring seriousity that i am able of sometimes , > > that there exist a Ramana Maharshi list for devotees > > where people are not answered the way Wim did. > > > > URL: RamanaMaharshi > > > > But they are answered in the spirit of the scriptures > > and with all the care ,delicacy and concern. > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 19 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:42:05 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > > Hi Bobby , > > > > i always knew there are on this list members who feel like you ! > > Yes, yes, those to whom Ramana fills their heart , > > those who really love the postings with his teachings; > > > > i am a little puzzled by those who do not love his teachings > > and to a list dedicated to Ramana's teachings anyway , > > that is something that i want to understand ... > > > > do you know why ? > > > > thank you Bobby... > > > > > > > Ramana's life was so beautiful and beyond reproach that to use his > > > name for hyprocrasy and self promotion thus leading others away > > from > > > his true nature is a great sin no matter how one intellectualizes > > > concerning it. > > > > > > The few moments a day that i have with him are the best that can > > be. > > > I love Sri Ramana and He fills my heart. > > > > > > Love, > > > Bobby G. > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 20 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:19:06 -0000 > > "fewtch" <coresite > > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > > > > Hi Vicki, > > > > My understanding is that is a Satsangh of a devotee to > > Ramana's teachings (Harsha), but isn't specifically dedicated solely > > to the teachings of Ramana -- isn't there a RamanaMaharshi group with > > that purpose? > > > > Somebody please correct me if i'm wrong... > > > > Love, > > > > Tim > > > > , "vioricail" <viorica@z...> wrote: > > > i am a little puzzled by those who do not love his teachings > > > and to a list dedicated to Ramana's teachings anyway , > > > that is something that i want to understand ... > > > > > > do you know why ? > > > > > > thank you Bobby... > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 21 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:18:11 -0000 > > "fewtch" <coresite > > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > > > > Hi Vicki, > > > > My understanding is that is a Satsangh of a devotee to > > Ramana's teachings (Harsha), but isn't specifically dedicated solely > > to the teachings of Ramana -- isn't there a RamanaMaharshi group with > > that purpose? > > > > Somebody please correct me if i'm wrong... > > > > Love, > > > > Tim > > > > , "vioricail" <viorica@z...> wrote: > > > i am a little puzzled by those who do not love his teachings > > > and to a list dedicated to Ramana's teachings anyway , > > > that is something that i want to understand ... > > > > > > do you know why ? > > > > > > thank you Bobby... > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 22 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:30:47 EST > > leteegee > > Re: Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > > In a message dated 12/30/2001 1:56:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > viorica writes: > > > > > > > i am a little puzzled by those who do not love his teachings > > > and to a list dedicated to Ramana's teachings anyway , > > > that is something that i want to understand ... > > > > > > do you know why ? > > > > Hi Vicki... > > > > I'm here because I love being around Harsha and other good friends I've > made > > through-out the years. > > > > You also wrote in another post: > > > i shall always continue to pray to Ramana in my heart , > > > my question is again - if this is found astray here , > > > then i find myself in front of a problem - where am i wrong ? > > > > > > You aren't wrong! If you can't pray freely to Ramana, > > then I don't want to be here either. > > > > I'm not a Ramana devotee > > but I've so much enjoyed getting to know him > > and his wisdom and grace > > through you, Harsha, and others. > > > > I have no books of his to directly quote, > > but I do recall he said, something to the effect of... > > > > Don't look for truth; look for your fears, your illusions. > > Those are what is standing in the way to what is true. > > > > You are doing exactly that... and I hope we all still are! > > > > So glad you are here. > > > > Love, > > xxxtg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 23 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:46:17 -0800 > > Julie Isaac <jei > > Re: A Prayer to God > > > > Hi Vicki, > > > > Yes, I understood that you were concerned with those who consider > themselves > > Self-Realized, but who are not. And I know how easily one can use the > > "philosophy" of non-duality to support this self-delusion. Most of these > > people are well-meaning and passionate about spirituality. Personally, I'm > > wary of anyone who announces that they are AWAKE and KNOW THE TRUTH. They > > may or may not. I rarely ever know, unless their love and peace are so > > strong, so obvious, that it never even occurs to me to doubt them. And > that > > is RARE indeed!!!! > > > > Whenever I'm at Satsang, whenever I'm listening to a "teacher," while > > listening to their words, I'm listening even more closely for my heart's > > response. I let the teacher within my own heart tell me if there is > anything > > I can learn from this person. If there is, I stay, for as long as my heart > > tells me to. I don't feel that I can, or that's its even my place to judge > > someone else's state of awareness. I can only judge whether I believe > > someone has something to teach me. And that someone doesn't always have to > > be Self-realized. I accept truth wherever I find it. And if I look and > > listen closely enough, I find that there's truth all around me. > > > > Yes, I know that one should be able to trust one's teacher. They are > > claiming to share TRUTH with us. And we are thirsting for the truth. Are > > they giving us water or sand? I don't know. All I know is, if I accept > their > > gift, I accept responsibility for it. My inner guidance takes me to a > > teacher for the wisdom that they share (even if a teacher is only > expressing > > intellectual understanding, if their wisdom opens my heart then I've > > benefited greatly) or to more deeply learn to look within my own Self for > > truth. Perhaps I'm being too easy on these false teachers, but if there > > truly are no mistakes, then maybe they have something to teach the > students > > who come to them, even if what they have to teach is not pure or deeply > > realized. Maybe they are here to teach discernment. Maybe not. I don't > know. > > > > It is interesting to note how different all the teachers are who "teach" > > Advaita Vedanta. (I'm sure it applies to other teachings as well, but this > > is the path I know.) When you look at those who claim to be Self-Realized > > in Sri Ramana Maharshi's lineage, and you see how incredibly different > their > > expression of this path, it becomes clear that some semblance of the > > personality remains. Individuality lives within oneness. Perhaps it's this > > remaining individuality that attracts us to a teacher, to someone who > seems > > to "speak our language." Perhaps that's why we may be attracted to a false > > teacher. But if our thirst for truth is strong enough then we, at some > > point, will recognize that the false teacher is not quenching our thirst, > > and we will go deeper within ourselves, and, at the same time, find an > outer > > teacher who is more worthy of our respect and devotion. > > > > I know it took me a lot of years and many false steps to be ready to open > to > > Ramana and this way of being. I honor my journey. All of it. Every mistake > > I've made. Every bit of wisdom that has been gifted to me. Every teacher, > > false and true. > > > > <<and if my way is 'astray' as you say then that is what has to be and > > it is alright with me.>> > > > > I'm sorry that you took my words this way. I never meant to imply in any > way > > that you've gone astray. I don't believe that for a second. I'm not > telling > > you WHAT IS, I'm simply sharing my experience with you, for whatever it's > > worth. > > > > Namaste, > > Julie > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 24 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:58:02 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > Re: to Vicki: the newcomers look > > > > > > Hi Tim , > > > > i understand this the same way as you do now , > > but there was a time when i made no distinction > > between this list and the devotees list ; > > > > promissing everybody to respect the distinction, > > > > nevertheless i would like to ask your > > understanding that i always loved posting Ramana's words and > > i always had to fight my way out of discussions > > and controverses , as Ramana's words are enough to me the way > > they are, and i feel i don't want my participation to have > > anything in common with struggle,fighting and unpleasant > > feelings on this list,on any part , > > > > there are people who can accept and there are people > > who doubt, they have the right to doubt as > > i know my way is to fully trust Ramana, > > > > i respect other people's doubts,beliefs,faith,understanding, > > insight,realization, please respect mine , > > > > vicki. > > > > > > > Hi Vicki, > > > > > > My understanding is that is a Satsangh of a devotee > > to > > > Ramana's teachings (Harsha), but isn't specifically dedicated > > solely > > > to the teachings of Ramana -- isn't there a RamanaMaharshi group > > with > > > that purpose? > > > > > > Somebody please correct me if i'm wrong... > > > > > > Love, > > > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 25 > > Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:40:14 -0000 > > "vioricail" <viorica > > Re: A Prayer to God > > > > > > Hi Julie, > > thank you for your answer ; > > that clarifies a lot of things and makes me feel > > that there was a point where we misunderstood each other > > and that point is overcome. > > > > it is not that we do not have what to learn from > > a teacher who is not Self-realized in the strict sense > > of the scriptures , there can be much common sense and wisdom > > in a human being and we can learn much from such a teacher ; > > > > > > but i had some exchanges & experiences with people > > who literally caught my emails and played the teacher > > with their context and they caused me at the time > > unpleasantness ; i am posting on the list of devotees and i am > > posting sometimes on lists who are not for devotees, > > and in my beginnings i was unprepared to make any differences > > between lists; > > Ramana devotees are happy to see his words again and again, > > don't doubt, don't debate, don't make interpretations, > > don't analyze his words , but read again and again with love, > > and fully accept,having chosen a path - self enquiry , surrender > > or both. > > On the other side , here i am , expecting the same attitude > > on any list on which Ramana Maharshi appears on the > > group presentation. So i had to learn to differentiate between > > lists , as i took that by default Ramana's teachings are > > absolutely and fully accepted without questioning on any list > > as the case is with the devotees. > > > > when i understood where i was mistaking , i was still > > making another mistake: i considered that any member of that list > > had to know that i have already accepted everything as Ramana > > said and i needed no debates about it . so i always entered > > dialogs about Ramana's teachings only from reasons of courtesy > > to answer and not because i had any doubt or wanted the debate > > or wanted to convince somebody to think as i do or to accept > > what i do. > > > > and trying to be polite in my way , not only posting and > > dissapearing ,i found myself trapped in endless dialog that > > to me was unnecessary so it became a struggle to get out of it; > > i suppose i should have told those people on the spot - > > "why do you enquire me ? why do you not enquire yourself ? > > why do you enquire other ? i do not wish to play , > > to me this teaching is my life , not a game , please skip > > me out of it." but instead of saying , i struggled to go out > > someway and i found myself asking myself - why i am doing > > this ? i want only to share with whomever feels that loves > > this words and find them useful,why do i have to pass this ? > > > > and other interactions too that clearly showed that > > that individual wanted to display his knowledge,understanding, > > superiority; so i had to 'swim' among such 'teachers' > > not only once ; > > > > so at the end of this year , i might feel a little tired by > > posting Ramana on lists not dedicated to devotees; > > > > i might feel a little tired by these repeated declarations > > that i am one of his devotees , as i thought that people > > understood that that means 'peace ! peace ! give me peace! > > i chosed already , i have my Master , please leave me alone, > > we can be friends , but forget about a master-disciple > > relationship, it is already decided and you cannot change it . > > you can only annoy and bring damage to our relationship. > > i am not doing this to you .why are you doing this to me?' > > > > so dear Julie , i was bringing in my experience of this year , > > with assertive teachers that don't give up easily ; > > > > may they have peace and let other go peacefully on their ways > > too, and may each one of us self-enquire oneself in one's > > privacy and not turn this beautiful teaching into a game , > > > > surely i am not a game player , > > > > vicki. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > ______________________ > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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