Enlightenment Realization

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg et al,

 

Warning, if you easily suffer from verbal diarrhoea delete this post...

 

The following is definitely not 'in a nutshell', better call it, "From the

shell of a nutcase." :-)

 

But may I first thank everyone for accessing my website (3000 hits in 1.5

months). From the number of pages accessed (about 13.700) I notice that most

did not suffer from ADD.

 

Dear Greg,

 

I appreciate your questions, but with all due respect, I can't answer your

post under the subject heading, "RE: Wim's concept of

enlightenment." as I have no concept of or thoughts about "enlightenment".

Enlightenment is NOT a concept, it is NOT conceived.

AS pathological conceptualising ceases through erasure of compulsive self

doubt and obsessive questioning, one's original being is re-membered and

recovered. 'Being', pure and simple, re-emerges (sat chit ananda). 'Being

such' is usually called 'enlightened' or 'realized'.

 

I will answer your two questions, "1. Can people have siddhis and not be

enlightened? 2. Can people be enlightened and not have siddhis? " up front.

However to see my use and meaning of the word 'siddhi(s)', and how I

distinguish between 'enlightenment' and 'realization' see copies of previous

responses below.

So please, read my use of the words 'siddhi', 'enlightenment' and

'realization' from the view as described in the quotes below.

 

You asked:

>>> 1. Can people have siddhis and not be enlightened? <<<

 

No.

A person who has not recovered 'being', lives in and from a state of

conceptuality or obfuscated mentality, fully controlled by manipulative

rules of conditionality ("if... then..." conditioning.) What such persons

call 'powers' are only mind games that are believed to be true. These

persons, often unbeknownst to themselves, are living an illusive state of

surrogate or pseudo reality.

The illusive 'powers' of these mind games feed on:

a. fear for punishment and judgement,

b. satisfaction through rewards and approval.

>>> 2. Can people be enlightened and not have siddhis? <<<

 

No.

Siddhi IS self realization, as Ramana clearly stated. Harsha has quoted him

very correctly on this as follows:

>>> Bhagavan Ramana's simple statement, "Self-Realization is the only True

Siddhi" is very straight forward and leaves no room for misinterpretations.

<<<

 

Again please, read the material below for more clarification.

 

------------------------------

QUOTES FROM YOGINI SAKTI'S POST

 

This thread may have started quite a while ago with a post on the date below

from Yogini Sakti prompted by and commented upon by David Bozzi.

 

hamsayogini [hamsayogini]

Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:28 AM

Re: Sage Wisdom

 

......

"Siddhi" means, "power, accomplishment, perfection". They

are extraordinary powers of the soul, developed through consistent

meditation & deliberate, grueling, often uncomfortable "tapas"

("heat, fire, purification"); or, awakened naturally through

spiritual maturity & yogic sadhana ("effective means of attainment;

religious or spiritual discipline).

 

A few siddhis are:

- clairvoyance,

- clairaudience;

- divination;

- increased auric awareness, or sensitivity;

- awareness of Self & your surroundings.

>From a yogic perspective, the acquisition of such abilities are

sometimes viewed as an obstacle. Mostly because some folk get caught-

up in trying to impress, control, or harm others; or, become involved

in the "I"ness of it all. Becoming blinded by 'being' versus 'doing'.

 

Each of the siddhis is nothing more than heightened

perceptual awareness - something we are all capable of achieving.

There is nothing mystical or magical about them. Just like all our

natural human abilities, that we each display with varying degrees,

they are sense-based (sight, sound, touch, taste, etc). It can also

be said that some folk are 'born' with these talents - meaning, not

needing development. Or, they have a tendency towards such things -

which leads to researching & developing the same (via Rajayoga for

example).

 

Yogini Sakti

 

----------------

WIM'S RESPONSE TO MIKE

 

At some point I hooked into the follow ups on this thread with my following

response to Mike, (mikeSuesserott)

 

....Mike, you wrote to Jody on Dec 12, 2001 re: realization...

>>> (snips...) Is it acquiring some jargon? Is it affirming the dream nature

and denying

the reality of the world? Is it seeing some lights, feeling some kundalini

currents and shaktis, hearing some sounds? Is it having access to the other

world? Is it being able to shut off the senses, or predicting the future?

No, none of these make a person a realized being. That state of full

realization is far, far beyond these things.

Not that I would know this from my own experience, <<<

 

Then, with all due respect and while appreciating your post, what are you

saying? If it is not from your own experience... it is kind of useless, is

it not?

Well, the neat thing is that I know from experience, neat eh!? :-)

>>>...but we can read the list

of attributes of a realized being in Patanjali and also in the Gita. These

attributes encompass omnipresence and omnipotence, as well as other powers

that are part of the natural state of a realized being. Yoganandaji said

that just as a normal human being knows and feels when his body is being

touched, in the same way a realized person knows and feels, as if in his own

body, everything that is going on in all of the universes in all the three

worlds in all creation. Can you ***conceive*** it?<<

 

Actually, Mike, if you would have asserted, "You CAN PERCEIVE it" instead

asking "Can you conceive it?" you would have put Jodi and yourself on the

right track.

 

------------------

ANOTHER RESPONSE

 

The following is an extended version of what I wrote to one of my

correspondents who forwarded me Mike's post.

 

Wim:

Siddhas are 'enlightened' beings with additional actualising or creative

siddhis (gifts or powers, sometimes seen as wondrous or miraculous). These

gifts make them 'realized' and 'realizing' beings. The need to display those

gifts depends on their playful and joyous functionality and functional

playfulness to bring joy.

 

How to tell realization or enlightenment by its signs!

About the distinction between 'devotees', 'enlightened' and 'realized'

beings!

 

The upcoming definitions of devotees, enlightened and realized beings should

be seen in the following light:

The perceived progression in signs, characteristics or marks of dynamic

perfection in a human being, from 'devotee' via 'enlightened being' to

'realized being', is only a matter of self re-discovery and self

re-cognition within every human being. This perceived progression is a

representation only and no more than a manifestation in time, of the return

to one's original human/divine self and being. (What one was supposed to

have been, if something would not have gone 'hay-wire' from the moment of

birth and/or subsequently in life. The progression from devotee to realized

being is really only a matter of recovery of one's original state of dynamic

perfection.

 

Keeping that in mind, and for the sake of elucidation only in order to

recognize 'perceived' stages of progress, I distinguish between devotees,

enlightened and realized beings as follows.

.. Devotees, FOLLOW and BASK so to say, in the divine light and inspiration

of enlightened or realized beings through faith, devotion, piety, diligence,

right action, responsibility, duty and the collection of merit. Pure and

perfected devotees may be seen as the end result of Hinayana Buddhism.

.. Enlightened beings have, so to say, SEEN the divine light and RECEIVED it

as insight, understanding, knowledge and wisdom. Pure and perfected

enlightened beings may be seen as the end result of the Mahayana Buddhism.

.. Realized beings have, so to say, BONDED with and have ABSORBED divine

light and are able to work with it as energy, making the divine light also

available and perceivable to other fellow humans. Pure and perfected

realized beings may be seen as the end result of Vajrayana Buddhism.

 

----------------

ABOUT POWERS AND GIFTS

 

In a post to Gabriele I wrote the following:

 

Thank you for your kind and frank email. You are actually the first list

member on Harsha's to ask freely about 'siddhis'. I have been writing to

this list and similar ones for about 3 years now and many members know me

quite or very well, not all of them all of the time appreciating a certain

quirkiness that others see as humour.

 

Some list members know me very personally and intimately and fully agree

with your quote, having experienced 'shanti' (and more) in the Presence of

Togetherness in mutual unconditional love:

 

"In whose mere presence, one, even without effort, gets spontaneous peace of

mind (Shanti), that one is the real siddha."

 

Please notice that the subject of the last part of your quote is the word

'one'. This obviously refers to the "real siddha." However...

However it also and simultaneously refers to the 'one' who placed him or

herself in the embrace of the 'siddha', thereby 'surrendering to or falling

into a state of reality called Shanti'. While in the presence of a Siddha

one is identical with the Siddha.

 

Shanti actually means "inner and outer peace through physical comfort as

well as compassionate understanding."

That is not the same as "peace of mind," which is too one sided, too much on

the 'mind' side of our integral reality.

 

As I have written so often before, the transmissions, translations and

interpretations of Ramana's sayings come from people who have no full

understanding of Ramana and what he is saying. (If they did, they would not

be with Ramana, would they be?) We can hardly expect truthful renditions

from people who don't yet know what IT IS, and WHO THEY ARE. They are only

considering the question "Who am I," they are actually not answerng to the

question.

The fact that they were with Ramana indicates that they wanted elucidation,

were in need of elucidation. How can we expect 'direct' elucidation from

them... except for well meant, but often weak translations or renditions

conveying Ramana's expression of being.

 

You wrote:

>>> My criticism, which led to Harsha's respond, was more a criticism for

the way you put the others wrong and how you are speaking about yourself.

 

It is only after someone just recently (Dec 12) used the word powers (in a

mildly confrontational conversation between Mike and Jody),

>>> but we can read the list of attributes of a realized being in Patanjali

and also in the Gita. These attributes encompass omnipresence and

omnipotence, as well as other powers that are part of the natural state of a

realized being. <<<

that I felt the urge to speak more in depth about these gifts. I had never

used the word siddhi or siddha in the list before, knowing what avalanche of

reactions it could set off. My explanation of Siddha and siddhis was quite

straightforward and rather neutral, you can probably find it in the

archives, but I will dig it up for you.

It was that email that elicited quite a number of un-receptive responses. It

is not, as you suggest, that I was negative for starters. I was actually

warding off negativity myself... Not that negative responses to my

clarification were unexpected...

 

I cannot help my straightforward enthusiasm about the topics I write about,

some read this as arrogance, some read this as coming from a "know it all,"

some read this as naiveté, some read it as it is... enthusiasm and they

participate in that.

No matter what, it did incite negative reactions but only from some who

write openly to the list. But there is also Tim, such a wonderful

compassionate being, whom I could emulate, but hey, he is Tim and I am...

 

Those gifts or wondrous powers of the Siddhas are signs of a functional and

dynamic realization which works hand in hand with their compassionate

involvement with fellow human beings. The nature of these gifts depends on

the realized being's function in time and space as Bodhisattva, and his or

her FREE and playful acceptance of his or her predilection, with free divine

will and clarity of the mind of light. (Not my will, but thine...)

Those wondrous powers or gifts that Siddhas ***may or may not display***,

are nothing more than signs of realization. (Realization meaning: "Actually

making ideas real and tangible, realizing them. Realization is not a mental

thing, as in, "I realize that" but a transformative thing, as in E = M.c.c)

 

Realized beings do not need those gifts, but the gifts come automatically

and free with the performance of 'duty' or 'god's will'. This

'duty-and-will' (tapas) is self-created-and-accepted in a playful manner.

Siddhas do not need to display them. But sometimes, in their creative play,

the manifestation of those gifts slip through and get noticed.

It is quite an embarrassing thing when that happens..., a heavenly form of

'being caught with one's pants down'. :-)))

 

---------------------------

ANOTHER RESPONSE TO GABRIELE

 

Thank you again, my dear Gabriele, for your response.

 

And again, I concur with much of how you understand ...

Your way of reading is very generous to the way I write and express myself,

therefore you glean my intent very well. Thank you.

 

I am indeed often a 'naughty one' like your Seshadri, or the way Krishna was

so often. There can be great benefit in being the 'hofnar' (Dutch) or

'clown', or... what's the word? Ah...the 'fool' !

>>> You say, that these gifts make them "realized". <<<

 

Let me say a little more are about the meaning of 'gift'. Gifts originally

meant 'givens... data, as in "It is a given that...", or "Given that this is

such... then ..."

The Latin word for giving is 'do' (dedi, datum, dare). 'Do' also points to

the giver 'Da' (Deus, benefactor of deeds) as illustrated by the originating

words from Sanskrit 'da' or 'dha'. (There is much beautiful material on

this.)

 

I was at some point a guru (Oh yes in 1975 :-) with 'Da' (as in 'adi da' or

'da free john') in front of my usual appellation... hehehe.

I was jokingly (?) called "da Wim"

(duh :-)

 

A very beautiful Latin first name is Deodata or Deodatus, to indicate that a

child is a gift of God, and that 'it goes without saying', we just have to

recognize it and express gratitude. Deus (God), Zeus, or Jupiter or 'Dio

Pater'... means 'God is the father' of 'this child' or in a larger view

'humankind'. That is why I put so much emphasis on the fact that we are

reclaiming our divinity... No need to attain it...

It is of course an absolute given that Ma is the mother...

 

One could say that at the moment of ecstasy in intercourse the lover is the

representative of divine gifts and graces... Cupi-do (I give pleasure to

desire, I satisfy desire)

>>> Clearly said, a realized being must have such gifts. <<<

 

It is a 'given' that realized beings have them...

How he or she disperses them, is fully and freely dependant on how they see

fit to urge fellow human beings to 'expeditiously' remember, recover and

reclaim their divinity...

 

The gifts can be seen as signs or marks of realization, but real masters or

mistresses at this, will quickly obliterate those signs, they 'kick the

pedestal' to also prevent dependency by devotees.

>>> To calm the mind of people through mere presence - as in the case of

Ramana - this we can also call a siddhi - in your understanding. Is that

correct? <<<

 

Yes

>>> And this "siddhi" is one of the most rare and to the most benefit for

others. <<<

 

It still depends quite a bit on 'humorous and freeing' expediency and

preparatory work...

But yes... when WE succeed (the giver-gift-and-given, the

lover-love-and-beloved) after some expedient trickery, WE fully merge in the

calmness of one, communion, the glorious dynamic-state of love.

>>> Seshadri was playful (or it seems he was. There is also the opinion,

that he wanted to hide his true realization with his strange behaviour. We

never will know...)- Ramana was not playful. Ramana felt no need to display

this gifts. <<<

 

He allowed Seshadri... one has to prime the pump... choke the motor...

 

One should see that the 'single and enigmatic Ramana' is fully surrounded by

a culture that provides a lot of preparation... A devotee just does not come

out of the blue to see the master..

Here in the West that is so different... I do a lot of the prep myself...

and then... "the harmonious calm" strikes... (hmmm). With some it goes very

fast..., with some not so, it all depends very much on the layers of hurt

that has to be cut through...

>>> He did not He had no intentions. It only happened very naturally. The

power of his being revealed itself. That was all.<<<

 

Of course, but, as I said, do not overlook the surrounding culture...

 

I wrote:

>>> one may as well surrender to me..., it does not matter, in the long run

one will surrender to the real self...<<<

 

You answered:

>>>Well, Wim, hope you have nothing against if I/we keep on to give our

surrender to Sri Ramana and not to you. (LOL)<<<

 

Of course not, hehehe.

But you know I am here... you can touch me... :-)... we can hug...

Ramana? Not...

By the way, the 24th of February is my birthday.

Punarvasu - Bhagavan's Birth Star celebration in 2002 is on Feb 24.

>>> Ah yes, that is what I meant in my criticism: how you are speaking

about yourself. That causes confrontations.<<<

 

There is a method to my madness... as you are starting to see... :-)))

>>>Bhagavan replied sternly: 'Who are you to say who is the right guru for

him? By what power can you make out what a man really is? And are you sure

that the guru counts so much? All depends on the disciple. Even if you

worship a stone with great devotion it will be seen as God." (Ganesan:

Moments Remembered, p. 20) <<<

 

As I wrote to Hellman:

>>> Most people don't even know themselves, how can they possibly tell a

talker and charismatic from a realised? <<<

 

So surrender to a goat, a cow, nandi, me, a lingam or a pissing post... it

makes no difference... as it is self rendering self... eventually 'one falls

in love' again

 

Thank you my dear Gabriele, Wim

 

PS

A bit about your name, there is more, but later...

 

"Gabr"

In Amsterdam Jewish slang a 'gabber' is a 'man'.

Gab is 'strong man'. Gab means strength. Gabriel is "strength of God".

Gabr-El or God-Man, the divine human.

(It is not for nothing that Gabriel was involved with Mary who gave birth to

Jesus (Deodatus, Joshua), Immanuel, 'God is with us' or God / Man)

 

--------------------------------

WIM'S RESPONSE TO XXXX

 

Dear XXXX, I am one of those Siddhas, and there are plenty more like me. You

and some people in Connecticut have attested to that, not that I needed

that, but in my playfulness some of that stuff slipped by...

But, as you know, I remain as normal as I can, keeping my childlike play

going, remaining Krishna dancing.

 

XXXX, play life as child's play. Life is not to be a strategic game of chess

with rules and regulations, the manipulations pawns and victims by 'losers

posing as winners'.

 

Playing becomes easier after one has addressed the issue of trauma and

frustration with the people who stopped or hampered your play. That is why

anger can be freeing... when the pent up spasms in the muscles and blocked

pulses in the nerves get released... best thing is to work that anger out on

inanimate objects... not necessarily the people who deserved your anger

unless... they have discovered compassion... and have understood your anger.

 

-------------------------------

"THE SIDDHI OF OWNING A RED CAR"

 

Someone with a red car is not a better human, but someone with a red car

might just come in handy, because the CAR might come in handy if that

someone has to go somewhere to visit or if that someone wants to carry

someone along.

The car, like a gift or power (siddhi) is just a vehicle to help people

along. In principle only the human beings count, but life and its

accoutrements allows humans to use a car...

It is not important what colour the car is, although choosing the right

colour maybe part of the function to attract people to get into the car.

 

------------------------------

WHAT XXXX WROTE TO ME

> ... Wim,

>

> I have no energy or desire to even get into a debate on all these

> things Michael just posted on Harsha's list... For shoot, my own

> experience cannot even back up or accurately discuss this topic....

>

> Yet, I am convinced that a realized being does not necessary perform

> any of these things to be realized... I dont claim to be realized.

> Heck we both know I still have a ways to go to get rid of all the

> fears.... But I feel that all this he mentioned would be better

> classified under the heading of "purpose" or "function" These

> physical manifestations or appearances of things that are miracle in

> nature... Just like some things Jesus has done, are rather allowed to

> be, due to the being's function.... Not granted to them as super

> powers just because they realize I am..... Such a narrow view of

> reality do the likes of M. present..... When anything is possible, why do

> people deflate the possibilities by such difficult and limiting

standards.?

>

> XXXX

 

 

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[Guest guest]

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> Hi Greg et al,

 

[snip]

 

Such an investment in your self image. You devote an astonishing

amount of time and energy towards its preservation.

[Guest guest]

Dear Jody,

 

You wrote:

>>> Such an investment in your self image. You devote an astonishing amount

of time and energy towards its preservation.<<<

 

Did you ever consider that I spend an astonishing amount of time taking you

seriously (;-) while you keep "thinking" that this is all about me... It IS

about you Jody...

You may find it all 'psycho babble', what I write, but if psycho babble is

indeed my medium, then I am writing my best pieces al because of you. :-)

So Jody, you can take some credit for that (:-)

In fact what a wonderful title would that be for a book:

"Psycho Babble" Language for a New Babylon.

 

Love you, Jody, Wim

 

"Who am I?", did you get any closer to dealing with it?

 

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[Guest guest]

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> Dear Jody,

>

> You wrote:

> >>> Such an investment in your self image. You devote an astonishing amount

> of time and energy towards its preservation.<<<

>

> Did you ever consider that I spend an astonishing amount of time taking you

> seriously (;-) while you keep "thinking" that this is all about me... It IS

> about you Jody...

> You may find it all 'psycho babble', what I write, but if psycho babble is

> indeed my medium, then I am writing my best pieces al because of you. :-)

> So Jody, you can take some credit for that (:-)

> In fact what a wonderful title would that be for a book:

> "Psycho Babble" Language for a New Babylon.

>

> Love you, Jody, Wim

>

> "Who am I?", did you get any closer to dealing with it?

 

I wouldn't be able to prove that I know who I am in the way

you should be able to prove that you have special powers.

[Guest guest]

Dear Jody,

 

You wrote:

>>> I wouldn't be able to prove that I know who I am in the way you should

be able to prove that you have special powers.<<<

 

I only asked the question:

>>> "Who am I?", did you get any closer to dealing with it?

 

Why are you so much into proving, I did not ask for you to prove anything...

Why did you read that into my simple question?

Are you any by chance getting a little closer to seeing that there is a

certain dubiousness surrounding your being? Could that be the reason why you

deal so much with the issue of belief or proof?

 

Why do you try to throw on me that what sticks to you?

 

Love, you Wim.

 

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[Guest guest]

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> Dear Jody,

>

> You wrote:

> >>> I wouldn't be able to prove that I know who I am in the way you should

> be able to prove that you have special powers.<<<

>

> I only asked the question:

> >>> "Who am I?", did you get any closer to dealing with it?

>

> Why are you so much into proving, I did not ask for you to prove anything...

> Why did you read that into my simple question?

> Are you any by chance getting a little closer to seeing that there is a

> certain dubiousness surrounding your being? Could that be the reason why you

> deal so much with the issue of belief or proof?

>

> Why do you try to throw on me that what sticks to you?

>

> Love, you Wim.

 

If I made the statement, "I know who I really am," there is no

way I could convince anyone. To know who one really is has only

its own internal confirmation. While others who know who they

really are might be able to ascertain that I know who I really

am, I would not be able to convince someone who believed I didn't

know who I really am.

 

However, with siddhis, there should be an opportunity for external

confirmation in the face of skepticism.

 

I will say that I do know who I really am. However, it changes

nothing in the way of this discussion, except perhaps to give you

something to deny about me as I am denying your claims of siddhis.

 

So, while I cannot prove to you that I do know who I am, you

should be able to prove to me (and the other readers) that you

have siddhis. I'm not asking you to prove that you know who

you really are, I'm asking you to prove that you have the special

powers you've told us about.

 

However, I only expect another attempt to turn this back around

on me again. This started out as and is supposed to be

about the existence of your supposed siddhis, not about why I

doubt in their existence. It's perfectly reasonable to doubt

fantastic claims, but not so to make them without proof.

[Guest guest]

Dear Jody,

 

I asked you a few times now, if you actually read well enough.

Siddhis need no proof, where do you get that idea from?

 

Doubt can never be overcome with proof, doubt is a pathology... it has to do

with you... not me...

 

Love you, Jody, do not doubt that...

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[Guest guest]

Dear Wim --

 

Please do consider why there

is any importance at all to

Jody's acceptance of you as

a siddha and/or as a capital

"E" enlightened being. See

if you can explain this at a

reasonable length without

implying that your readers

are suffering from "ADD" or

some such, and ixnay on the

ondescensioncay, if you can

manage that. Thanks in

advance. Btw, doubt is in

*no* way "a pathology," it

is a prospective jnani's

best tool, a solvent for all

manner of BS. That which is

factual sheds doubt like a

duck's back sheds water,

that which is fanciful

dissolves with nary a trace.

 

Much love -- Bruce

 

 

On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 11:51:27 -0800 Wim Borsboom <wim

writes:

> Dear Jody,

>

> I asked you a few times now, if you actually read well enough.

> Siddhis need no proof, where do you get that idea from?

>

> Doubt can never be overcome with proof, doubt is a pathology... it

> has to do

> with you... not me...

>

> Love you, Jody, do not doubt that...

> ---

 

 

http://come.to/realization

http://www.atman.net/realization

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

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[Guest guest]

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> Dear Jody,

>

> I asked you a few times now, if you actually read well enough.

> Siddhis need no proof, where do you get that idea from?

 

Common logic. If I say I can fly, I should expect that unless

I do so in the presence of others, I won't be believed.

 

So, if you say you have extraordinary abilities, ones that

other realized people don't appear to have, you should expect

people to question and want proof when there is an absence

of a reliable demonstration.

> Doubt can never be overcome with proof, doubt is a pathology... it has to do

> with you... not me...

>

> Love you, Jody, do not doubt that...

 

The very quintessence of jnana yoga as expounded by Shankara is

based on doubt. The idea is that everything we experience in

the realm of name and form is not real. So, the practice of jnana

yoga is to doubt everything we come to know through the senses,

including the apparent manifestation of siddhis, whether our own

or that of another. It is all to be dismissed using the term

"neti, neti" until we come to recognize the only true reality there

is. That reality is as beyond siddhis as it is the going-ons

of a madhouse or a brothel.

[Guest guest]

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> Dear Jody,

> Are you any by chance getting a little closer to seeing that there

> is a certain dubiousness surrounding your being? Could that be the

> reason why you deal so much with the issue of belief or proof?

>

> Why do you try to throw on me that what sticks to you?

 

Perhaps the dubiousness noted

originated from someone from the past

that betrayed or manipulated

the noter of the dubiousness

and has nothing whatsoever to do with

the seemingly apparent dubiousness noted

now,

and furthermore

that which appears to stick to someone else

is actually stuck to the one who noted it.

 

David

(psycho babbler)

[Guest guest]

Dear List,

 

All 'conditioning' emanates from the speaker. There is nothing you

or I can say that isn't coming directly from memory, whether

categorized as "emotional memory" or "witness memory." Even the

sages are offering regurgitated stuff, however informed by

authenticity that may be.

 

However, the moment "mirror's up!" is stated, whether implicitly or

explicitly, the mirror immediately goes down, and a different one

goes up.

 

Stop, take a moment and look instead of reacting. Be silent a while.

 

Love to everyone,

 

Tim

 

, "david bozzi" <david.bozzi@n...> wrote:

> Perhaps the dubiousness noted

> originated from someone from the past

> that betrayed or manipulated

> the noter of the dubiousness

> and has nothing whatsoever to do with

> the seemingly apparent dubiousness noted

> now,

> and furthermore

> that which appears to stick to someone else

> is actually stuck to the one who noted it.

>

> David

> (psycho babbler)

[Guest guest]

, "fewtch" <coresite@h...> wrote:

>

> Dear List,

>

> All 'conditioning' emanates from the speaker. There is nothing you

> or I can say that isn't coming directly from memory, whether

> categorized as "emotional memory" or "witness memory." Even the

> sages are offering regurgitated stuff, however informed by

> authenticity that may be.

>

> However, the moment "mirror's up!" is stated, whether implicitly or

> explicitly, the mirror immediately goes down, and a different one

> goes up.

>

> Stop, take a moment and look instead of reacting. Be silent a

> while.

 

 

Reaction noted.

[Guest guest]

Hi there, dear David...

smiling at you, appreciated :-)

 

As you wrote:

>>> Perhaps the dubiousness noted originated from someone from the past that

betrayed or manipulated the noter of the dubiousness and has nothing

whatsoever to do with

the seemingly apparent dubiousness noted now, and furthermore that which

appears to stick to someone else is actually stuck to the one who noted it.

David

(psycho babbler) <<<

 

If you would have send your reply to Jody the response would have been:

"Psycho Babble!"

 

Love, David, Wim

 

 

 

 

 

david bozzi [david.bozzi]

Saturday, January 05, 2002 7:20 PM

Re: Enlightenment Realization

 

 

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> Dear Jody,

> Are you any by chance getting a little closer to seeing that there

> is a certain dubiousness surrounding your being? Could that be the

> reason why you deal so much with the issue of belief or proof?

>

> Why do you try to throw on me that what sticks to you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

/join

 

 

 

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

 

 

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