Wim, a reminder of list guidelines

[Guest guest]

Wim and Friends,

 

If I may bring to attention here another issue about siddhas. It is

not so much that any siddhis are "wrong" in themselves, as it is the

use to which they are put. Besides the known examples of fraudulent

gurus only tricking people, there is a good reason why even those

with valid gifts will minimize displaying them. That is the use of

them to attract followers.

 

A story is told of Ramana being asked to cure someone to save them

from dying, and while he refused, he admitted privately he was able.

The reason he gave for declining was that it would bring hordes of

people to the ashram with the wrong motivation, nothing to do with

understanding self-realization. Also when stories were told by

others about his appearing to them thru bilocation, he usually denied

any knowledge of being there and said his appearance happened due to

their own faith and was an impersonal event.

 

The stories about Jesus miracles and healing going forth from him,

also include him telling many people their own faith had made them

well, and his asking them not to tell anyone. Many of the stories

were recounted only later by disciples, and it was primarily to those

already followers that such siddhas were demonstrated. So it is

important to consider why they would want to avoid having their

siddhis become widely known, and what is taught by their example.

 

Wanting to generate that faith in oneself personally, in a

self-aggrandizing way, is simply a suspicious motivation. It

distracts from focusing on truth above personalities. Looking at the

purposes for which it has been used here so far, Wim has given his

siddhis as a reason to believe he is enlightened, to believe he

speaks with an authority derived from personal contact with Buddha

and Ramana, and to promote use of his aura machine. Why on earth any

of that should matter to us is beyond me, unless of course one wishes

to use it to solicit more clients from this list? Promotion of one's

personal business is not welcome on list.

 

This discussion has veered far beyond a simple debate about differing

opinions of siddhis. This list is not here to be exploited for

attracting clients, it is not for anyone's self-promotion as a guru,

especially when making money in this way is involved. Speaking as a

moderator, this is a strong suggestion that Wim keep his business

activities and the discussion of them offlist. This would extend to

client endorsements from other list members as well. Such "evidence"

has no further purpose here other than persuasion to a belief in Wim.

This has long ago crossed the line into using the list for business

activities. It is especially pointless to go on personalizing the

debate into who is or is not enlightened. It is no longer even about

enlightenment, tho the idea of proving or imposing such a belief on

anyone is laughable, but it has degenerated into taking cheap shots

and ridiculing.

 

It is the nature of gifts that they are offered freely, and taken or

not taken freely. Gifts such as poetry are offered and people are

free to appreciate them or not. Ideas and beliefs seem to be

endlessly debateable, but a belief in Wim or his siddhis is not

required of anyone on this list. It is a moot point, and it is

personalizing the discussion beyond any hope of a free and open

discussion of siddhas.

 

Please keep these distinctions in mind in order to avoid any semblance

of business promotion in future, Wim.

 

Gloria

[Guest guest]

Well said and needed to be said dear Gloria.

 

papa_swan

>

> Wim and Friends,

>

> If I may bring to attention here another issue about siddhas. It is not so

much that any siddhis are "wrong" in themselves, as it is the use to which they

are put. Besides the known examples of fraudulent gurus only tricking people,

there is a good reason why even those with valid gifts will minimize displaying

them. That is the use of them to attract followers.

>

> A story is told of Ramana being asked to cure someone to save them from dying,

and while he refused, he admitted privately he was able. The reason he gave for

declining was that it would bring hordes of people to the ashram with the wrong

motivation, nothing to do with understanding self-realization. Also when

stories were told by others about his appearing to them thru bilocation, he

usually denied any knowledge of being there and said his appearance happened due

to their own faith and was an impersonal event.

>

> The stories about Jesus miracles and healing going forth from him, also

include him telling many people their own faith had made them well, and his

asking them not to tell anyone. Many of the stories were recounted only later by

disciples, and it was primarily to those already followers that such siddhas

were demonstrated. So it is important to consider why they would want to avoid

having their siddhis become widely known, and what is taught by their example.

>

> Wanting to generate that faith in oneself personally, in a self-aggrandizing

way, is simply a suspicious motivation. It distracts from focusing on truth

above personalities. Looking at the purposes for which it has been used here so

far, Wim has given his siddhis as a reason to believe he is enlightened, to

believe he speaks with an authority derived from personal contact with Buddha

and Ramana, and to promote use of his aura machine. Why on earth any of that

should matter to us is beyond me, unless of course one wishes to use it to

solicit more clients from this list? Promotion of one's personal business is not

welcome on list.

>

> This discussion has veered far beyond a simple debate about differing opinions

of siddhis. This list is not here to be exploited for attracting clients, it is

not for anyone's self-promotion as a guru, especially when making money in this

way is involved. Speaking as a moderator, this is a strong suggestion that Wim

keep his business activities and the discussion of them offlist. This would

extend to client endorsements from other list members as well. Such "evidence"

has no further purpose here other than persuasion to a belief in Wim. This has

long ago crossed the line into using the list for business activities. It is

especially pointless to go on personalizing the debate into who is or is not

enlightened. It is no longer even about enlightenment, tho the idea of proving

or imposing such a belief on anyone is laughable, but it has degenerated into

taking cheap shots and ridiculing.

>

> It is the nature of gifts that they are offered freely, and taken or not taken

freely. Gifts such as poetry are offered and people are free to appreciate them

or not. Ideas and beliefs seem to be endlessly debateable, but a belief in Wim

or his siddhis is not required of anyone on this list. It is a moot point, and

it is personalizing the discussion beyond any hope of a free and open discussion

of siddhas.

>

> Please keep these distinctions in mind in order to avoid any semblance of

business promotion in future, Wim.

>

> Gloria

[Guest guest]

I agree! --Greg

 

At 06:43 PM 1/6/02 +0000, papa_swan wrote:

>Well said and needed to be said dear Gloria.

>

>papa_swan

>

>>

>> Wim and Friends,