Harsha Satsanghs's preamble was RE: Wim, a reminder of list guidelines

[Guest guest]

Wim:

do with me want you want... Kill the buddha when you mee....

 

Mira:

Yeeehaaaa!!

Since in your own words: "death is not a problem, I have said such many

times before... ", let's get it over with!! Once dead, I'm sure some living

devotee will soon get in touch with you anyway, and will then share with us

the true meaning of the great sage Wim Borsboom's teachings. Make sure to

copyright them before you expire.

 

Most cordially, lovingly and smilingly, (((( )))) hug hug hug, kis kis kis,

love you love you love you,Wim, Mira :-) :-) :-) :-))))))) ;-) ;-) ;-)

[Guest guest]

Dear Wim,

Did you really feel it was necessary to quote the entire preamble at

me? Did you think I had forgotten something?

The joy is going out of the joyous, not saying that is all your fault,

just taking the temperature of the list and it is getting hot, so we

are asking you to cool it.

The "rules" amount to play nice and don't make a pest of yourself to

the list by hogging more than your share of bandwith. People

sometimes say they quit because of too many messages per day and they

can't keep up, or they just quit and say nothing. The moderators

prefer complaints, we welcome complaints, because then there is a

chance we can do something about it. The current complaint is that

the list is becoming all about Wim, it was recently even a subject

heading if you recall. I'm not the first moderator to caution you,

yet you seem to ignore all hints. Teegee asked you to just shut up

and drop it some days ago, Harsha asked how long do you expect us to

look the other way (yes, he mentioned your aura machine before Jody

did), Bruce asked you a couple of very concise and to the main point

questions - that if you would have answered them would bring this

whole siddhas enlightenment issue to a reasonable closure for now. If

you are just being one of those hard-headed Dutchmen, we can get out

the 2x4 to get your attention and show you we really do mean it.

C'mon Wim, you get what this is about, don't give me that "I am

naive" song and dance.

Wim, I'm just the messenger, representing quite a few concerned

moderators. We want this "topic" of your personal siddhas and what

you do for your "work" to end now, regardless of your opinions about

how unjust you may find this. Even tho you may consider your work

very spiritual and thus on topic, it is simply impolite to go on and

on tooting your horn about what you do and how special you are. Wim,

you are very bright, surely you must be able to see we are just tired

of hearing it, and you HAVE spoken your piece already at considerable

length. It's not as tho you haven't had a chance to be heard. What

part of _N O_ did you not understand?

So I will not continue it anymore by responding at length to all your

comments. But please when I am talking to you about what you do,

don't respond by analysing Jody. That is so blatantly manipulative a

move. We are not here to judge between you two, who is doing what to

whom or who started it, or who is right - this is childish. It

doesn't matter how many people have whatever opinions of you, you are

being asked to stop, ok? It doesn't even have anything to do with who

may be "right" about anything, it's just enough said already.

The main concern at this point is that evidently something is still

not clear to you about the previously given business distinctions, in

that you continued describing what is on your business card and how

you work with your clients (and friends) to do whatever you do...

Yes, we already knew that Lynn had invited you, and you held sessions

for others at her house, you both told us before. The warning about

continued testimonials was not saying you had asked her to write one,

it was requesting no more please. Since you yourself do not wish any

"hearsay evidence" (as given by Mark for example) to be mentioned on

list, then it seems only fair to consider Lynn's testimonials equally

off limits to the list. We are none of us in a position to judge, not

that we even want to be, these personal and business matters simply

do not belong on the list. If Lynn is happier, certainly we are

happy for her, and happy to hear about it. Her endorsement and

defense of the aura machine crosses over to a business testimonial.

Here is one last "guideline"... and yes, we are making these rules up

as we go along, we never needed this one before now. Some of us

have met "in real life", most notably was the Zen Center retreat.

- Wim Borsboom

Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:57 PM

satsanghs's preamble was RE: Wim, a reminder of list guidelines

Dear Gloria,You wrote:>>> If I may bring to attention here another

issue about siddhas. It is notso much that any siddhis are "wrong" in

themselves, as it is the use towhich they are put. Besides the known

examples of fraudulent gurus onlytricking people, there is a good

reason why even those with valid gifts willminimize displaying them.

That is the use of them to attract followers. <<<Those are the

vibuthi displays, the lingam tricks, the drama, thefascinations...

etc. You are so right on...>>> A story is told of Ramana being asked

to cure someone to save them fromdying, and while he refused, he

admitted privately he was able.I would not save someone from dying in

the context you mention above...death is not a problem, I have said

such many times before... But you knowwhat, stuff happens..., LIFE is

the miracle, holding someone's hand whilethey are reclaiming life is

not a big thing, while at the same time it is...Holding someone's

hand while they are passing into a state of being withless temporal

and spatial involvement is a most wonderful miracle...Who, though, is

the one who saves him or herself from "dying"... is it notthe subject

of that process themselves, the self...?>>> The stories about Jesus

miracles and healing going forth from him, alsoinclude him telling

many people their own faith had made them well...<<<Yes, indeed,

Gloria, it has to do with their own faith... Did I not try tosteer

this conversation into the realm of doubt and urging to overcome

it...Glad you are bringing this up Gloria... we are getting somewhere

this way...This IS all about restoring faith within oneself and

helping each otherdoing that. The logo printed on my business card is

"Helping each otherreintegrate ourselves"The reason why I do not feel

the need to prove anything is that it is notabout me, that would

indeed be cultic... I only recounted the gifts thatcome with

realization to indicate that realization is about fullintegration...

no holds barred... Function may or may not precludeapplication of

those gifts... and that mostly depends on the faith of theclient in

him or herself... Self doubt is what lies at the root of

mostdis-eases, so it is important that the doubt be recognized by the

client,and it is absolutely important to trace the origin of that self

doubt toexternal forces of illusion and delusion as applied by power

mongers,manipulators and abusers. That is, as I found out in my work,

a mosteffective way to help people exonerate themselves and reach

freedom andemancipation soon and irreversibly.That Jody has trouble

noticing personal self doubt by almost obsessivelyshifting the focus

onto doubting others is fully understandable... Thereason for self

doubt HAS to be found in others rather than in oneself. Itis however

the ORIGINAL perpetrator of that doubt around Jody, who has to

bediscovered. Jody is getting there. I am happy to serve temporarily

as therecipient of that doubt, but as you notice I keep steering the

focus back...it is not me who needs to be dealt with, it is the

original manipulatoraround Jody who needs to be dispelled.About

proof:I did not at anyone point feel compelled to prove anything and

still Idon't... as life needs no proof. LIFE IS THE MIRACLE.But hey,

why not talk about it...? If anything, it should be possibleamongst

people such as us... I feel at home in Harsha's Satsangh and I

havebeen made to feel at home...The preamble to the

list is indeed very good and should beupheld at all cost:>>> This

spiritual discussion group is an open Satsang and is blessed by

SriRamana Maharshi, the great Jnani Sage of Arunachala.

a is inthe best tradition of a joyous spiritual

fellowship for facilitating theRecognition of the Eternal Reality

that is One's Own Self. "I Am That!" Thisis the uncompromising,

simple, and yet Radical Truth proclaimed in a varietyof ways by the

ancient and modern Sages of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, andTaoism.

In Advaita Vedanta, the highest teaching emphasizes the

completeidentity of the Individual Soul with the Supreme Soul. In

Tibetan Buddhism,Dzogchen is considered the supreme teaching and

represents the nondual focuson one's innate wakefulness. How

beautiful the variety of expressions in somany different traditions!

We embrace this variety with great joy and infellowship in

a.No religion or teacher or tradition has a monopoly on

the Essential Truth ofReality which is Our Own Nature. In this

context, a focuses onthe aspirations and experiences of

individuals on the spiritual path.Everyone interested in any of the

Shiva and Shakti traditions, and therelated yogic and tantric paths

as well as those practicing primarily thecognitive methods of the

pure nondual teachings of great Jnanis such asRamana Maharshi are

welcome to join. ***The discussions are typicallyexpected to focus on

Self-Realization, Kundalini Shakti and ItsManifestations,

God-Realization, the Goddess, Enlightenment,*** and varioustypes of

Samadhis (Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa). Discussion of various

teachersand teachings can also be enriching as long as there is

mutual respect and afeeling of amity in the conversation. Humor and

poetry and other artisticexpressions of the spiritual life are

encouraged and supported. May GodBless everyone with Peace, Joy, and

Understanding. May we all nourish andheal each other in the spirit of

Compassion, Wisdom and Love. OM Shanti,Shanti, Shanti. Peace to all

living beings. <<<Whatever I have written about falls totally within

the freedom and opennessas outlined above. I keep to that, I stick to

that and I expect from themoderators to promote thatand safeguard

that..What Jody does, and what Mark did, actually does not fit... and

hey, lo andbehold, Wim is chastised... That is quite OK with me, I

understand that,that happens... And I am so free as to turn that bust

into an boon.Sure I am direct and I am in your face... No denying

that... Why skatingaround the issues, beating around the bush, do we

have any 'sacred cows' toprotect?Anyway, initially, and quite

naively, although enthusiastically, I recountedsome of the things

that came with Self-Realization... and "Kundalini Shaktiand Its

Manifestations" as some people requested me to do. (No, this was

notLynette... Most of this material, I wrote about some years ago

(and you canfind it all in the archives), when Lynette and Jody had

not even appeared onthe scene. If anything, I have always been

totally upfront... I have noissues with fear and the "preservation of

sacred cows." and I am not afraidto make a fool of myself... as that

serves quite a purpose as well...Periodically, in previous cultures,

religions or spiritual traditions, these"things" used to be anathema.

Not that it helped any, when they were nottalked about... life and its

intrinsic miracles still did happen, no amountof conceptualizing and

judging will make that go away.This is a group of quite enlightened

people in the more common sense meaningof that word. This is also a

group of quite some enlightened people in themore specific sense as

well. The climate in this satsangh can bear this...and it has shown

that many times. We are benevolent to each other... aren'twe!As I

said before, when one gives someone the benefit of the doubt one

startswith love and one does not ever stop with that, love to

eventually overcomethat doubt and self doubt, as it stands in the way

of Self Realization.In this rather enlightened environment, where ego

issues are being dealtwith constantly, this, what we do here is

possible, has to be possible. Andin fact the preamble as written

expects it.About proof:The last thing we need is proof... reality

needs no proof... but thecharacteristics of reality as evidenced in

Sat Chit Ananda have a tendencyof spilling over...Do we need proofs

as pushed for by Jody... Do we need, like we still see inIndia, one

more person stuck alive in a covered hole in the ground, with hishand

sticking out to prove a point. Of course not... That is

fascination,drama, it could be in the realm of charlatans, why would

Jody keepinsisting... Do we want a display of fortune telling.Is this

what Jody would like me to do?... Hhmmm that would be silly indeed.>>>

The reason he gave for declining was that it would bring hordes

ofpeople to the ashram with the wrong motivation, nothing to do

withunderstanding self-realization. Also when stories were told by

others abouthis appearing to them thru bilocation, he usually denied

any knowledge ofbeing there and said his appearance happened due to

their own faith and wasan impersonal event. <<<How true that is, and

I know this well...>>> Wanting to generate that faith in oneself

personally, in aself-aggrandizing way, is simply a suspicious

motivation. <<<Of course it is...>>> It distracts from focusing on

truth above personalities. Looking at thepurposes for which it has

been used here so far, Wim has given his siddhisas a reason to

believe he is enlightened, to believe he speaks with anauthority

derived from personal contact with Buddha and Ramana, and topromote

use of his aura machine.<<<If that is how you read this, I have no

control over that... and you maypersist in that... I simply accounted

stories that fully fit within theliberating 'confines' of the Harsha's

preamble, it is the doubt that Jodydisplays does not fit the preamble.

I never promoted the use of my biofeedback apparatus on the list for

business purposes... It was only mentioned byJody, who obviously

referenced my web site and tried to bring it to thetable as an

example for some ridicule.And again that is OK with me, but it did

not start with me...>>> Why on earth any of that should matter to us

is beyond me, unless ofcourse one wishes to use it to solicit more

clients from this list? <<<This list in no way added to an increase

in my clientele. Lynette, Iactually met through a different

list...and she is not my client she is adear friend of mine...>>>

Promotion of one's personal business is not welcome on list. <<<Of

course not.>>> This discussion has veered far beyond a simple debate

about differingopinions of siddhis. This list is not here to be

exploited for attractingclients, it is not for anyone's

self-promotion as a guru, especially whenmaking money in this way is

involved. Speaking as a moderator, this is astrong suggestion that

Wim keep his business activities and the discussionof them offlist.

<<<I did not bring my business activities to the list. It was Mark,

Jody andyou, Gloria who actually did, it was they who mixed in

references from mysite and brought them in here create that business

perspective around it...But yes, the visits to my website, did not

suffer from that.. Turningsomething disadvantageous into a boon is

what transformation is all about...>>> This would extend to client

endorsements from other list members aswell.<<<Lynette is not a

client, never was, never will be..., but she has seen me atwork with

clients... and that is what she attested, as the believability

andintegrity of my work was being called into question. I have at no

pointprompted her to do that.>>> ... but it has degenerated into

taking cheap shots and ridiculing.<<<Yep, and why should I be the

recipient of that!. But... do I mind? Nope.And why not, as it show

the dynamics of manipulation the way I havedescribed such in my other

posts, it gives us hands on, real lifeexamples...>>>It is the nature

of gifts that they are offered freely, and taken or nottaken

freely.Absolutely, I have used the exact same words, Gloria>>> ...

Ideas and beliefs seem to be endlessly debateable, but a belief inWim

or his siddhis is not required of anyone on this list. It is a

mootpoint, and it is personalizing the discussion beyond any hope of

a free andopen discussion of siddhas. <<<Any discussion of siddhis

without reference to the real thing is justconceptual, stuff of

books.I happen to have some experience and thought that I would bring

it in, "getit from the horse's mouth" sort of thing, and one can take

it or leave it.But it is the way this issue is processed, the kind of

taking or leavingthat is indicative of how a person impedes or regains

his or her liberation.Jody decided to doubt it, so I am dealing with

the issue of doubt...You brought in the word 'faith' so there you

go...>>> Please keep these distinctions in mind in order to avoid any

semblanceof business promotion in future, Wim.<<<Appreciated, but

also...let no one bring my business to the tableinappropriately, I

did not initially... and I never intended to...Gosh, the

Magazine website / hasa

link to my website. You may take it off if you want to... If you

thinkthat I stand in the way of liberation... do with me want you

want...Kill the buddha when you mee....Lovingly, WimOver and

out...Gloria

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All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to the

[Guest guest]

Dear Gloria,

 

Did I not finish my last email to you with:

>>> Kill the buddha when you mee....

Lovingly, Wim

Over and out...<<<

 

Notice that you are opening it up again!

 

The first sign of "doubt" wherever it came from, should never have been

allowed to carry on past the first email expressing it, the same with the

"slander" thing. It is the moderator's job to stop that in the bud. That did

not happen. That is where the onus is, do not shift it to me.

What is the preamble about... Do I need to quote from it again, word by word

with asterisks?

 

It is actually that simple...

 

Oh and by the way, did you forget to snip? (lengthy preamble and ramble

included), I say this with humour...

 

Lovingly and with humour, Wim

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[Guest guest]

Dear Wim,

I can't see any humour in this any more! Why can't you simply stop!

This would really be a great thing!

Gabriele

 

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> Dear Gloria,

>

> Did I not finish my last email to you with:

>

> >>> Kill the buddha when you mee....

> Lovingly, Wim

> Over and out...<<<

>

> Notice that you are opening it up again!

>

> The first sign of "doubt" wherever it came from, should never have

been

> allowed to carry on past the first email expressing it, the same

with the

> "slander" thing. It is the moderator's job to stop that in the bud.

That did

> not happen. That is where the onus is, do not shift it to me.

> What is the preamble about... Do I need to quote from it again,

word by word

> with asterisks?

>

> It is actually that simple...

>

> Oh and by the way, did you forget to snip? (lengthy preamble and

ramble

> included), I say this with humour...

>

> Lovingly and with humour, Wim

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001