Harsha Satsanghs's preamble was RE: Wim, a reminder of list guidelines

[Guest guest]

Dear Gloria,

 

You wrote:

>>> If I may bring to attention here another issue about siddhas. It is not

so much that any siddhis are "wrong" in themselves, as it is the use to

which they are put. Besides the known examples of fraudulent gurus only

tricking people, there is a good reason why even those with valid gifts will

minimize displaying them. That is the use of them to attract followers. <<<

 

Those are the vibuthi displays, the lingam tricks, the drama, the

fascinations... etc. You are so right on...

>>> A story is told of Ramana being asked to cure someone to save them from

dying, and while he refused, he admitted privately he was able.

 

I would not save someone from dying in the context you mention above...

death is not a problem, I have said such many times before... But you know

what, stuff happens..., LIFE is the miracle, holding someone's hand while

they are reclaiming life is not a big thing, while at the same time it is...

Holding someone's hand while they are passing into a state of being with

less temporal and spatial involvement is a most wonderful miracle...

 

Who, though, is the one who saves him or herself from "dying"... is it not

the subject of that process themselves, the self...?

>>> The stories about Jesus miracles and healing going forth from him, also

include him telling many people their own faith had made them well...<<<

 

Yes, indeed, Gloria, it has to do with their own faith... Did I not try to

steer this conversation into the realm of doubt and urging to overcome it...

Glad you are bringing this up Gloria... we are getting somewhere this way...

This IS all about restoring faith within oneself and helping each other

doing that. The logo printed on my business card is "Helping each other

reintegrate ourselves"

 

The reason why I do not feel the need to prove anything is that it is not

about me, that would indeed be cultic... I only recounted the gifts that

come with realization to indicate that realization is about full

integration... no holds barred... Function may or may not preclude

application of those gifts... and that mostly depends on the faith of the

client in him or herself... Self doubt is what lies at the root of most

dis-eases, so it is important that the doubt be recognized by the client,

and it is absolutely important to trace the origin of that self doubt to

external forces of illusion and delusion as applied by power mongers,

manipulators and abusers. That is, as I found out in my work, a most

effective way to help people exonerate themselves and reach freedom and

emancipation soon and irreversibly.

 

That Jody has trouble noticing personal self doubt by almost obsessively

shifting the focus onto doubting others is fully understandable... The

reason for self doubt HAS to be found in others rather than in oneself. It

is however the ORIGINAL perpetrator of that doubt around Jody, who has to be

discovered. Jody is getting there. I am happy to serve temporarily as the

recipient of that doubt, but as you notice I keep steering the focus back...

it is not me who needs to be dealt with, it is the original manipulator

around Jody who needs to be dispelled.

 

About proof:

I did not at anyone point feel compelled to prove anything and still I

don't... as life needs no proof. LIFE IS THE MIRACLE.

But hey, why not talk about it...? If anything, it should be possible

amongst people such as us... I feel at home in Harsha's Satsangh and I have

been made to feel at home...

 

The preamble to the list is indeed very good and should be

upheld at all cost:

>>> This spiritual discussion group is an open Satsang and is blessed by Sri

Ramana Maharshi, the great Jnani Sage of Arunachala. a is in

the best tradition of a joyous spiritual fellowship for facilitating the

Recognition of the Eternal Reality that is One's Own Self. "I Am That!" This

is the uncompromising, simple, and yet Radical Truth proclaimed in a variety

of ways by the ancient and modern Sages of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and

Taoism. In Advaita Vedanta, the highest teaching emphasizes the complete

identity of the Individual Soul with the Supreme Soul. In Tibetan Buddhism,

Dzogchen is considered the supreme teaching and represents the nondual focus

on one's innate wakefulness. How beautiful the variety of expressions in so

many different traditions! We embrace this variety with great joy and in

fellowship in a.

 

No religion or teacher or tradition has a monopoly on the Essential Truth of

Reality which is Our Own Nature. In this context, a focuses on

the aspirations and experiences of individuals on the spiritual path.

Everyone interested in any of the Shiva and Shakti traditions, and the

related yogic and tantric paths as well as those practicing primarily the

cognitive methods of the pure nondual teachings of great Jnanis such as

Ramana Maharshi are welcome to join. ***The discussions are typically

expected to focus on Self-Realization, Kundalini Shakti and Its

Manifestations, God-Realization, the Goddess, Enlightenment,*** and various

types of Samadhis (Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa). Discussion of various teachers

and teachings can also be enriching as long as there is mutual respect and a

feeling of amity in the conversation. Humor and poetry and other artistic

expressions of the spiritual life are encouraged and supported. May God

Bless everyone with Peace, Joy, and Understanding. May we all nourish and

heal each other in the spirit of Compassion, Wisdom and Love. OM Shanti,

Shanti, Shanti. Peace to all living beings. <<<

 

Whatever I have written about falls totally within the freedom and openness

as outlined above. I keep to that, I stick to that and I expect from the

moderators to promote thatand safeguard that..

What Jody does, and what Mark did, actually does not fit... and hey, lo and

behold, Wim is chastised... That is quite OK with me, I understand that,

that happens... And I am so free as to turn that bust into an boon.

 

Sure I am direct and I am in your face... No denying that... Why skating

around the issues, beating around the bush, do we have any 'sacred cows' to

protect?

Anyway, initially, and quite naively, although enthusiastically, I recounted

some of the things that came with Self-Realization... and "Kundalini Shakti

and Its Manifestations" as some people requested me to do. (No, this was not

Lynette... Most of this material, I wrote about some years ago (and you can

find it all in the archives), when Lynette and Jody had not even appeared on

the scene. If anything, I have always been totally upfront... I have no

issues with fear and the "preservation of sacred cows." and I am not afraid

to make a fool of myself... as that serves quite a purpose as well...

 

Periodically, in previous cultures, religions or spiritual traditions, these

"things" used to be anathema. Not that it helped any, when they were not

talked about... life and its intrinsic miracles still did happen, no amount

of conceptualizing and judging will make that go away.

 

This is a group of quite enlightened people in the more common sense meaning

of that word. This is also a group of quite some enlightened people in the

more specific sense as well. The climate in this satsangh can bear this...

and it has shown that many times. We are benevolent to each other... aren't

we!

 

As I said before, when one gives someone the benefit of the doubt one starts

with love and one does not ever stop with that, love to eventually overcome

that doubt and self doubt, as it stands in the way of Self Realization.

In this rather enlightened environment, where ego issues are being dealt

with constantly, this, what we do here is possible, has to be possible. And

in fact the preamble as written expects it.

 

About proof:

 

The last thing we need is proof... reality needs no proof... but the

characteristics of reality as evidenced in Sat Chit Ananda have a tendency

of spilling over...

 

Do we need proofs as pushed for by Jody... Do we need, like we still see in

India, one more person stuck alive in a covered hole in the ground, with his

hand sticking out to prove a point. Of course not... That is fascination,

drama, it could be in the realm of charlatans, why would Jody keep

insisting... Do we want a display of fortune telling.

 

Is this what Jody would like me to do?... Hhmmm that would be silly indeed.

>>> The reason he gave for declining was that it would bring hordes of

people to the ashram with the wrong motivation, nothing to do with

understanding self-realization. Also when stories were told by others about

his appearing to them thru bilocation, he usually denied any knowledge of

being there and said his appearance happened due to their own faith and was

an impersonal event. <<<

 

How true that is, and I know this well...

>>> Wanting to generate that faith in oneself personally, in a

self-aggrandizing way, is simply a suspicious motivation. <<<

 

Of course it is...

>>> It distracts from focusing on truth above personalities. Looking at the

purposes for which it has been used here so far, Wim has given his siddhis

as a reason to believe he is enlightened, to believe he speaks with an

authority derived from personal contact with Buddha and Ramana, and to

promote use of his aura machine.<<<

 

If that is how you read this, I have no control over that... and you may

persist in that... I simply accounted stories that fully fit within the

liberating 'confines' of the Harsha's preamble, it is the doubt that Jody

displays does not fit the preamble. I never promoted the use of my biofeed

back apparatus on the list for business purposes... It was only mentioned by

Jody, who obviously referenced my web site and tried to bring it to the

table as an example for some ridicule.

 

And again that is OK with me, but it did not start with me...

>>> Why on earth any of that should matter to us is beyond me, unless of

course one wishes to use it to solicit more clients from this list? <<<

 

This list in no way added to an increase in my clientele. Lynette, I

actually met through a different list...and she is not my client she is a

dear friend of mine...

>>> Promotion of one's personal business is not welcome on list. <<<

 

Of course not.

>>> This discussion has veered far beyond a simple debate about differing

opinions of siddhis. This list is not here to be exploited for attracting

clients, it is not for anyone's self-promotion as a guru, especially when

making money in this way is involved. Speaking as a moderator, this is a

strong suggestion that Wim keep his business activities and the discussion

of them offlist. <<<

 

I did not bring my business activities to the list. It was Mark, Jody and

you, Gloria who actually did, it was they who mixed in references from my

site and brought them in here create that business perspective around it...

But yes, the visits to my website, did not suffer from that.. Turning

something disadvantageous into a boon is what transformation is all about...

>>> This would extend to client endorsements from other list members as

well.<<<

 

Lynette is not a client, never was, never will be..., but she has seen me at

work with clients... and that is what she attested, as the believability and

integrity of my work was being called into question. I have at no point

prompted her to do that.

>>> ... but it has degenerated into taking cheap shots and ridiculing.<<<

 

Yep, and why should I be the recipient of that!. But... do I mind? Nope.

And why not, as it show the dynamics of manipulation the way I have

described such in my other posts, it gives us hands on, real life

examples...

>>>It is the nature of gifts that they are offered freely, and taken or not

taken freely.

 

Absolutely, I have used the exact same words, Gloria

>>> ... Ideas and beliefs seem to be endlessly debateable, but a belief in

Wim or his siddhis is not required of anyone on this list. It is a moot

point, and it is personalizing the discussion beyond any hope of a free and

open discussion of siddhas. <<<

 

Any discussion of siddhis without reference to the real thing is just

conceptual, stuff of books.

I happen to have some experience and thought that I would bring it in, "get

it from the horse's mouth" sort of thing, and one can take it or leave it.

But it is the way this issue is processed, the kind of taking or leaving

that is indicative of how a person impedes or regains his or her liberation.

Jody decided to doubt it, so I am dealing with the issue of doubt...

You brought in the word 'faith' so there you go...

>>> Please keep these distinctions in mind in order to avoid any semblance

of business promotion in future, Wim.<<<

 

Appreciated, but also...let no one bring my business to the table

inappropriately, I did not initially... and I never intended to...

Gosh, the Magazine website / has

a link to my website. You may take it off if you want to... If you think

that I stand in the way of liberation... do with me want you want...

 

Kill the buddha when you mee....

 

Lovingly, Wim

 

Over and out...

 

 

 

 

Gloria

 

 

 

 

 

/join

 

 

 

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

 

 

 

 

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 12/4/2001