Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Dear Gracie, towards the end of his life, St. Francis of Assisi had become blind. A doctor was called; he recommended cauterizing the nerves with a white-hot iron bar which was to be applied on a half-circular region of the head extending from the eyes to the nape of the neck. There were no anesthetics in those days. The brethren of the order could not stand the sight, but St. Francis told the physician to go on with the treatment. He welcomed Brother Fire with sweet words as another of his beloved God's manifestations, not showing the slightest change of consciousness while the barbaric treatment took its course. So if we really do see everything as of one "substance" - no substance at all, but just a divine play of shadows and light, if we really have that realization, I do not think we can possibly miss noticing it. And I am pretty sure it will not require any proclamation, or any decision, or any acknowledgement through another human being. Warmly, Michael > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: crookedlace [crookedlace] > Gesendet: Sunday, January 06, 2002 15:25 > An: > Betreff: pondering Enlightenment > > > Dear list, > After giving it some thought,I still have a novice question that i > hope you will be so kind as to indulge. > If I am enlightened, who decides that I am so? > Do I decide it for myself and proclaim it to the world? > Do those around me decide it and proclaim it to the world? > Do I decide that i have attained it and bask in my own self > knowledge without sharing it? > Do others decide i have attained it and accept it without verbal > acknowledgement? > If others make that decision, as to my Enlightenment, how do they > come to such a conclusion? By my words? by my actions? by what is > inside my being? > If by my words, how can one know if they are true and not just > dissiminated for the purpose of my own glorification, worn as a > mantle for others to see and proclaim what an Enlightened being i am? > If by my actions, how can there be "no doer"? > If by what is inside my being, how can others know what is inside my > being without reliance upon my words or deeds? > Is it important for others to know and accept that I am Enlightened > and if so why? > I dont say that I am Enlightened. Even if it were true, I can not > phathom what would possess me to share such a highly personal thing. > If I am serene in my own knowledge, in my actions, in my being, then > what more do I need that I should turn outwards to others for > reassurance, acceptance, validation? > ah well, just a few questions that were wandering around my mind this > morning. > Today is a good day. I hope you all enjoy it. > Love Gracie > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, > sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and > exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves > rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from > Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come > and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart > Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A > true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to > a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: [snip] > So if we really do see everything as of one "substance" - no substance at > all, but just a divine play of shadows and light, if we really have that > realization, I do not think we can possibly miss noticing it. And I am > pretty sure it will not require any proclamation, or any decision, or any > acknowledgement through another human being. > > Warmly, > > Michael It would be a mistake imo to hold this example as the paradigm for all cases of enlightenment/realization. First of all, this story could well be the result of the hagiography of the life of St. Francis rather than an accurate rendering of an event. Secondly, if the story is true, it only indicates St. Francis' extraordinary abilities. While abilities such as these *sometimes* indicate enlightenment, there are many examples of people having these kinds of abilities that aren't enlightened, and there are many cases of enlightenment that aren't accompanied by any extraordinary abilities at all. Finally, your idea that St. Francis saw everything as one 'substance' is only a conceptual overlay you've applied to the story. As such it might not be anywhere near what St. Francis' actual state of mind was at the time of the event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Hey Jody and Mike, This is a very good point. To not hold onto conceptual paradigms of other peoples' experiences. Most people don't see these descriptions as conceptual designations - but rather as some kind of literal truth. So they look and look for that same literal thing for themselves. Also, with these conceptual models in mind, it prejudices their own experience - they can start to confabulate and believe they actually experience these things. I've known some students of Muktananda who believe that enlightenment is visually seeing a blue light about a two feet in front of their eyes. Several people have told me they have been able to see it for a whole month (then, alas, it stopped). (That also goes well with their same conceptual model that IT can be found but then lost again.) Remember COLLISION WITH THE INFINITE, Suzanne Segal's book about losing her sense of self when stepping onto the streetcar in Paris? A friend of mine was enthralled by that book. She thought about talking to Suzanne (before S. passed away) for information on which line that streetcar was on. Then taking a trip to Paris and finding the same streetcar! Love, --Greg At 05:59 PM 1/10/02 +0000, jodyrrr wrote: >, MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: > >[snip] > >> So if we really do see everything as of one "substance" - no substance at >> all, but just a divine play of shadows and light, if we really have that >> realization, I do not think we can possibly miss noticing it. And I am >> pretty sure it will not require any proclamation, or any decision, or any >> acknowledgement through another human being. >> >> Warmly, >> >> Michael > >It would be a mistake imo to hold this example as the paradigm for >all cases of enlightenment/realization. First of all, this story >could well be the result of the hagiography of the life of St. >Francis rather than an accurate rendering of an event. Secondly, >if the story is true, it only indicates St. Francis' extraordinary >abilities. While abilities such as these *sometimes* indicate >enlightenment, there are many examples of people having these >kinds of abilities that aren't enlightened, and there are many >cases of enlightenment that aren't accompanied by any extraordinary >abilities at all. Finally, your idea that St. Francis saw everything >as one 'substance' is only a conceptual overlay you've applied to the >story. As such it might not be anywhere near what St. Francis' >actual state of mind was at the time of the event. > > > > >/join > > > > > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > >Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 There's nothing wrong with skepticism as long as it is applied indiscriminately in a unilateral fashion along with equal parts of faith......Then again maybe there is! .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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