Self-enquiry is bliss all the way

[Guest guest]

-

Gabriele Ebert

MillionPaths ;

Monday, January 28, 2002 7:02 PM

Self-enquiry is bliss all the way

 

 

"It is bliss all the way. Self-enquiry makes one dive right into the source of

ove. How wonderful then every relationship is. How beautiful every person one

comes across. Then every sorrow moves, yet like being moved when one cries with

a character on the screen.

 

The tears are true but leave no car behind, for beneath flows the continuous

river of fullness, the fullness one plunges into, through self-enquiry. The sky

is then a fresh, clear blue, the clouds a sparkling white tinged with softest

greys, the leaves on trees are gold and baby green as they play with the breeze

and dancing sunbeams.

 

When the hozx of identity has been called through self enquiry the magic

awareness that one is nothing brings the flood of freedom. Then one dances with

the winds. This awakening of humility brings a song to the lips and laughter

gushes forth ever so often. The absolute simplicity, the perfect clarity of the

self that ever is, tested through self- enquiry, makes all complexity and

confusion, it is not unbroken so long as one is still on the way.Only, this

marvel ios not continuus, it is not unbroken so long as one is still on the way.

It plays hide and seek.

 

The truth reveals itself and then seems lost a while. Yet as A.R. Natarajan

points once more to Bhagavans assurance, if one holds on to the twin enquires

who am I? and Whence am I? ones destination is unfailingly The Abode of Bliss.

Besides, as we have seen, the journey itself is more enjoyable, and adventure ,

a dedication, a quest a fulfillment, an unravelling, a recognition of the

simple, pure of joy of being. For self-enquiry affords us glimpses of the abode

along the journey. There is no doubt, my Friend, it is bliss all the way.

 

For the delight of the wise, the conversation between Daivarata and Acharya

Ramana is recorded in this chapter. 'Bhagavan, what is the paramount duty of a

human being caught up in the cycle of births and deaths? Please decide on one

and expound it to me.' Bhagavan replied, 'For those desiring the highest,

discovering ones own true nature is most important. It is the basis of all

actions and their fruits.' Ramana Gita, Verses 1 to 3 Chapter-3."

 

 

 

(Dr. Sarada in: The Ramana Way, November 1998)

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/28/02 12:59:42 PM Mountain Standard Time,

jodyrrr writes:

 

<< You might get

a 3-day pass to enjoy at the Bliss Bar, but come Monday morning

you're back in the barracks, getting up before dawn to go on a 20

mile hike through the rain with a 75 pound pack. This is the kind

of regimen that an effective self-inquiry demands.

> What are the experiences of others? >>

 

This made me laugh! Yet, I'll add a few other kinds of pains on the path:

 

The first dark night of the soul when one feels completely abandoned by God,

or the Ground, or whatever you call it (I agree with B. Roberts who describes

this as a falling away of ego).

 

The first glimpse of the terrible loneliness implicit in the vision of "all

is one."

 

The pain of not having anywhere to rest one's head.

 

The intense sorrow felt for the world.

 

The sadness, during the psychological roto-rootering, of letting your issues

go.

 

I might agree with "bliss all the way" if bliss were VERY broadly and

abstractly defined as something like a constant context. Holly

[Guest guest]

"It is bliss all the way. Self-enquiry makes one dive right into the

source of ove. How wonderful then every relationship is. How

beautiful every person one comes across. Then every sorrow moves, yet

like being moved when one cries with a character on the screen.

The tears are true but leave no car behind, for beneath flows the

continuous river of fullness, the fullness one plunges into, through

self-enquiry. The sky is then a fresh, clear blue, the clouds a

sparkling white tinged with softest greys, the leaves on trees are

gold and baby green as they play with the breeze and dancing

sunbeams.

When the hozx of identity has been called through self enquiry the

magic awareness that one is nothing brings the flood of freedom. Then

one dances with the winds. This awakening of humility brings a song to

the lips and laughter gushes forth ever so often. The absolute

simplicity, the perfect clarity of the self that ever is, tested

through self- enquiry, makes all complexity and confusion, it is not

unbroken so long as one is still on the way.Only, this marvel ios not

continuus, it is not unbroken so long as one is still on the way. It

plays hide and seek.

The truth reveals itself and then seems lost a while. Yet as A.R.

Natarajan points once more to Bhagavans assurance, if one holds on to

the twin enquires who am I? and Whence am I? ones destination is

unfailingly The Abode of Bliss. Besides, as we have seen, the journey

itself is more enjoyable, and adventure , a dedication, a quest a

fulfillment, an unravelling, a recognition of the simple, pure of joy

of being. For self-enquiry affords us glimpses of the abode along the

journey. There is no doubt, my Friend, it is bliss all the way.

For the delight of the wise, the conversation between Daivarata and

Acharya Ramana is recorded in this chapter. 'Bhagavan, what is the

paramount duty of a human being caught up in the cycle of births and

deaths? Please decide on one and expound it to me.' Bhagavan replied,

'For those desiring the highest, discovering ones own true nature is

most important. It is the basis of all actions and their fruits.'

Ramana Gita, Verses 1 to 3 Chapter-3."

 

(Dr. Sarada in: The Ramana Way, November 1998)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

, "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote:

 

[snip]

> The truth reveals itself and then seems lost a while. Yet as A.R.

> Natarajan points once more to Bhagavans assurance, if one holds on to

> the twin enquires who am I? and Whence am I? ones destination is

> unfailingly The Abode of Bliss. Besides, as we have seen, the journey

> itself is more enjoyable, and adventure , a dedication, a quest a

> fulfillment, an unravelling, a recognition of the simple, pure of joy

> of being. For self-enquiry affords us glimpses of the abode along the

> journey. There is no doubt, my Friend, it is bliss all the way.

 

[snip]

 

Dr. Sarada's breathless prose might lead one to believe that

self-inquiry is a path always delightful with generous helpings

of peaches and creme. It leaves one with the impression that the

good Doctor doesn't have a clue as to what he's talking about,

despite the side dish of Indian hyperbole.

 

The activity of self-inquiry requires a fearless and unrelenting

journey into the heart of our own darkness. One cannot avoid this

fate if they are to come to the understanding they seek. Very often

there are many things hidden in our psyches that are very painful to

confront, but confront them we must, unsparingly.

 

There are formidible obstacles on the road to bliss. While we

may encounter a billboard every now and then reminding us of

our destination, the project of self-inquiry is a very difficult

one indeed. If you're looking for a primrose path, you aren't

going to get anywhere on the road to personal transformation.

 

We need to be in tanks, not palanquins, if we're to arrive at

that point where we come to the place we've never left.

[Guest guest]

Interesting statement, Jody. Is it your experience?

Is it a road of bliss and/or very often the contrary?

My limited experience is this:

If I am not following the path of self-enquiry there are a lot of

obstacles and painfulness in the mind, in the circumstances and

everywhere. If I turn to the path / or if it happens by grace, there

is a bliss independent of everything. So I would more agree with Dr.

Sarada that Self-enquiry is bliss all the way.

What are the experiences of others?

Gabriele

-

-- In , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@h...> wrote:

> , "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote:

>

> [snip]

>

> > The truth reveals itself and then seems lost a while. Yet as A.R.

> > Natarajan points once more to Bhagavans assurance, if one holds

on to

> > the twin enquires who am I? and Whence am I? ones destination is

> > unfailingly The Abode of Bliss. Besides, as we have seen, the

journey

> > itself is more enjoyable, and adventure , a dedication, a quest a

> > fulfillment, an unravelling, a recognition of the simple, pure of

joy

> > of being. For self-enquiry affords us glimpses of the abode along

the

> > journey. There is no doubt, my Friend, it is bliss all the way.

>

> [snip]

>

> Dr. Sarada's breathless prose might lead one to believe that

> self-inquiry is a path always delightful with generous helpings

> of peaches and creme. It leaves one with the impression that the

> good Doctor doesn't have a clue as to what he's talking about,

> despite the side dish of Indian hyperbole.

>

> The activity of self-inquiry requires a fearless and unrelenting

> journey into the heart of our own darkness. One cannot avoid this

> fate if they are to come to the understanding they seek. Very often

> there are many things hidden in our psyches that are very painful to

> confront, but confront them we must, unsparingly.

>

> There are formidible obstacles on the road to bliss. While we

> may encounter a billboard every now and then reminding us of

> our destination, the project of self-inquiry is a very difficult

> one indeed. If you're looking for a primrose path, you aren't

> going to get anywhere on the road to personal transformation.

>

> We need to be in tanks, not palanquins, if we're to arrive at

> that point where we come to the place we've never left.

[Guest guest]

, "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote:

> Interesting statement, Jody. Is it your experience?

 

Thanks for asking Garbriele. The process of self-inquiry is

primarily a psychological endeavor. We look at the root of

our experience and discern those personality traits that appear

to be involved, thereby eliminating them as the foundation of

our being. This exposes another layer of personality to be

traversed. Contained within the personality are all sorts of

hidden feelings and memories. Some good and some not so good.

The process itself seeks only discovery and has no preference

for the good or the bad. They both must come to the light and

be recognized for their occluding power to be eliminated.

> Is it a road of bliss and/or very often the contrary?

 

There is certainly bliss on the way, but no pain, no gain.

> My limited experience is this:

> If I am not following the path of self-enquiry there are a lot of

> obstacles and painfulness in the mind, in the circumstances and

> everywhere. If I turn to the path / or if it happens by grace, there

> is a bliss independent of everything. So I would more agree with Dr.

> Sarada that Self-enquiry is bliss all the way.

 

You have a lot obstactles and painfulness in your mind. Aren't

these included on your journey to self discovery? While you may

find relief in your self-inquiry, isn't it the pain that causes

your mind to turn to this relief? Aren't the obstacles and pain

a dynamic process that changes and is transformed by your applying

self-inquiry?

 

Self-inquiry is more than a occasional remedy for one's suffering.

It's a lifestyle, a total committment to self understanding. One must

apply themselves with their whole beings to the process, including

those obstacles and the pain in the mind. Self-inquiry is not some

sort of psychological Prozac, it's a USMC bootcamp. You might get

a 3-day pass to enjoy at the Bliss Bar, but come Monday morning

you're back in the barracks, getting up before dawn to go on a 20

mile hike through the rain with a 75 pound pack. This is the kind

of regimen that an effective self-inquiry demands.

> What are the experiences of others?

> Gabriele

[Guest guest]

Good points Jody and Gabriele. Bliss and self-inquiry are different, and there

are definite boot-camp aspects to the inquiry, as Jody points out. If it's only

blissful, ya aren't going far enough. It is to be pursued at one's limits and

edges, not just where it's safe and comfy. (Who am I? The latte drinker. To

whom does he appear? To me, the office worker.) It's not an aspirin tablet or

mantra.

 

When the inquiry it gets deep enough, to one's limits, it feels scary,

tumultuous, disorienting, like you're turning upside down and in and out. Which

is precisely what happens when who you have taken yourself for begins to chip

away.

 

Love,

 

--Greg

 

At 07:57 PM 1/28/02 +0000, jodyrrr wrote:

>, "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote:

>

>> Interesting statement, Jody. Is it your experience?

>

>Thanks for asking Garbriele. The process of self-inquiry is

>primarily a psychological endeavor. We look at the root of

>our experience and discern those personality traits that appear

>to be involved, thereby eliminating them as the foundation of

>our being. This exposes another layer of personality to be

>traversed. Contained within the personality are all sorts of

>hidden feelings and memories. Some good and some not so good.

>The process itself seeks only discovery and has no preference

>for the good or the bad. They both must come to the light and

>be recognized for their occluding power to be eliminated.

>

>> Is it a road of bliss and/or very often the contrary?

>

>There is certainly bliss on the way, but no pain, no gain.

>

>> My limited experience is this:

>> If I am not following the path of self-enquiry there are a lot of

>> obstacles and painfulness in the mind, in the circumstances and

>> everywhere. If I turn to the path / or if it happens by grace, there

>> is a bliss independent of everything. So I would more agree with Dr.

>> Sarada that Self-enquiry is bliss all the way.

>

>You have a lot obstactles and painfulness in your mind. Aren't

>these included on your journey to self discovery? While you may

>find relief in your self-inquiry, isn't it the pain that causes

>your mind to turn to this relief? Aren't the obstacles and pain

>a dynamic process that changes and is transformed by your applying

>self-inquiry?

>

>Self-inquiry is more than a occasional remedy for one's suffering.

>It's a lifestyle, a total committment to self understanding. One must

>apply themselves with their whole beings to the process, including

>those obstacles and the pain in the mind. Self-inquiry is not some

>sort of psychological Prozac, it's a USMC bootcamp. You might get

>a 3-day pass to enjoy at the Bliss Bar, but come Monday morning

>you're back in the barracks, getting up before dawn to go on a 20

>mile hike through the rain with a 75 pound pack. This is the kind

>of regimen that an effective self-inquiry demands.

>

>> What are the experiences of others?

>> Gabriele

[Guest guest]

my experience, Transcendental Meditation is superior to

Self-Enquiry since one need not Enquire as to anything

intellectually. The mantra cuts right through the mind and the self

resides in the Self. Once the mind is dispensed with through cutting

through it, it's no longer a bother and one can unrelentingly abide

in Bhagavan's Bliss. The Self-Enquiry aspect to what

Bhagavan has to offer is a reflection of his short

Sadhana period before realizing the Self, combined with

the fact that he was already 99.999999....% of the way

"there". For ordinary folks, a more powerful

mode of transportation is needed to cut

through the mind and abide in the source of

thought: the Self. What makes this possible is

the power in the mantra which enlivens it as

a vehicle; thus making any intellectual

Enquiry as to the "I-I" a second rate

technique. However, only those people

reading this post who have made the

experiential comparison test are truly

qualified to judge the truth of my

statements, for themselves. Others are

onlookers. Sincerely, jiva

> , "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote:

>

> > Interesting statement, Jody. Is it your experience?

>

> Thanks for asking Garbriele. The process of self-inquiry is

> primarily a psychological endeavor. We look at the root of

> our experience and discern those personality traits that appear

> to be involved, thereby eliminating them as the foundation of

> our being. This exposes another layer of personality to be

> traversed. Contained within the personality are all sorts of

> hidden feelings and memories. Some good and some not so good.

> The process itself seeks only discovery and has no preference

> for the good or the bad. They both must come to the light and

> be recognized for their occluding power to be eliminated.

>

> > Is it a road of bliss and/or very often the contrary?

>

> There is certainly bliss on the way, but no pain, no gain.

>

> > My limited experience is this:

> > If I am not following the path of self-enquiry there are a lot of

> > obstacles and painfulness in the mind, in the circumstances and

> > everywhere. If I turn to the path / or if it happens by grace,

there

> > is a bliss independent of everything. So I would more agree with

Dr.

> > Sarada that Self-enquiry is bliss all the way.

>

> You have a lot obstactles and painfulness in your mind. Aren't

> these included on your journey to self discovery? While you may

> find relief in your self-inquiry, isn't it the pain that causes

> your mind to turn to this relief? Aren't the obstacles and pain

> a dynamic process that changes and is transformed by your applying

> self-inquiry?

>

> Self-inquiry is more than a occasional remedy for one's suffering.

> It's a lifestyle, a total committment to self understanding. One

must

> apply themselves with their whole beings to the process, including

> those obstacles and the pain in the mind. Self-inquiry is not some

> sort of psychological Prozac, it's a USMC bootcamp. You might get

> a 3-day pass to enjoy at the Bliss Bar, but come Monday morning

> you're back in the barracks, getting up before dawn to go on a 20

> mile hike through the rain with a 75 pound pack. This is the kind

> of regimen that an effective self-inquiry demands.

>

> > What are the experiences of others?

> > Gabriele

[Guest guest]

, "purushaz" <purushaz> wrote:

> my experience, Transcendental Meditation is superior to

> Self-Enquiry since one need not Enquire as to anything

> intellectually. The mantra cuts right through the mind and the self

> resides in the Self. Once the mind is dispensed with through cutting

> through it, it's no longer a bother and one can unrelentingly abide

> in Bhagavan's Bliss. The Self-Enquiry aspect to what

> Bhagavan has to offer is a reflection of his short

> Sadhana period before realizing the Self, combined with

> the fact that he was already 99.999999....% of the way

> "there". For ordinary folks, a more powerful

> mode of transportation is needed to cut

> through the mind and abide in the source of

> thought: the Self. What makes this possible is

> the power in the mantra which enlivens it as

> a vehicle; thus making any intellectual

> Enquiry as to the "I-I" a second rate

> technique. However, only those people

> reading this post who have made the

> experiential comparison test are truly

> qualified to judge the truth of my

> statements, for themselves. Others are

> onlookers. Sincerely, jiva

 

Shameless plug for yet another spiritual ponzi scheme noted.

[Guest guest]

> Wed, 30 Jan 2002 05:47:10 -0000

> "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr

> Re: Self-enquiry is bliss all the way

>

> , "purushaz" <purushaz> wrote:

> > my experience, Transcendental Meditation is superior to

> > Self-Enquiry since one need not Enquire as to anything

> > intellectually. The mantra cuts right through the mind and the self

> > resides in the Self. Once the mind is dispensed with through cutting

> > through it, it's no longer a bother and one can unrelentingly abide

> > in Bhagavan's Bliss. The Self-Enquiry aspect to what

> > Bhagavan has to offer is a reflection of his short

> > Sadhana period before realizing the Self, combined with

> > the fact that he was already 99.999999....% of the way

> > "there". For ordinary folks, a more powerful

> > mode of transportation is needed to cut

> > through the mind and abide in the source of

> > thought: the Self. What makes this possible is

> > the power in the mantra which enlivens it as

> > a vehicle; thus making any intellectual

> > Enquiry as to the "I-I" a second rate

> > technique. However, only those people

> > reading this post who have made the

> > experiential comparison test are truly

> > qualified to judge the truth of my

> > statements, for themselves. Others are

> > onlookers. Sincerely, jiva

>

> Shameless plug for yet another spiritual ponzi scheme noted.

 

If you're doing some mantra someone gave you, and you don't have the individual

instinct to ask, "Who is repeating the mantra?", you lack the spiritual chops to

even be on this list. You're not aware.

 

And this really sounds wrong to my ear, making a sales pitch for abiding in the

Self. That really sounds 'off' to me.

 

Some mantras are sung or chanted by crowds and you get a very nice hypnotic

effect. I nice atmosphere is created in which a Guru can step in and seem very

wonderful and make his sales pitch.

 

If you're talking about Bhagavan's Bliss, you can get it by chanting a mantra.

It's called h-y-p-n-o-s-i-s.

 

If your spiritual hunger is for more than peace, low blood pressure, clear

thinking, health, bliss, and even abiding in the Self (how can a person hunger

for that?!), then you need inquiry, Who am I?.

 

Doing TM or anything at all, one needs to know who is doing it. To simply do the

mantra is to hypnotize yourself. It's fine for relaxation, lowering blood

pressure, bliss and something called abiding in the Self, whatever you think

that is.

 

I don't know of any activity that excuses anyone from doing inquiry. And while

enlighenment may be described as abiding in the Self, or abiding in nondual

awareness, it's not something you can set as a goal or go for, like lowering

your blood pressure or feeling bliss. It takes a different quality of hunger.

It's an objective of a different order, because it isn't achieved. It's what is,

it's what remains. It's already achieved.

 

Having said that, I understand TM is beneficial to the health. Beyond that, it's

mind control.

 

Jerry

http://nonduality.com/retreat.htm

[Guest guest]

Jerry! I am surprised at this! It is aggressive and hostile and narrow--it

seems a very conscious rudeness to many on this list whose paths and experiences

differ from your own, and differ very much from the biases you express below.

 

Jill

>>> umbada 01/30/02 09:23 AM >>>

 

If you're doing some mantra someone gave you, and you don't have the

individual instinct to ask, "Who is repeating the mantra?", you lack the

spiritual chops to even be on this list. You're not aware.

 

And this really sounds wrong to my ear, making a sales pitch for abiding

in the Self. That really sounds 'off' to me.

 

Some mantras are sung or chanted by crowds and you get a very nice

hypnotic effect. I nice atmosphere is created in which a Guru can step in

and seem very wonderful and make his sales pitch.

 

If you're talking about Bhagavan's Bliss, you can get it by chanting a

mantra. It's called h-y-p-n-o-s-i-s.

 

If your spiritual hunger is for more than peace, low blood pressure,

clear thinking, health, bliss, and even abiding in the Self (how can a

person hunger for that?!), then you need inquiry, Who am I?.

 

Doing TM or anything at all, one needs to know who is doing it. To simply

do the mantra is to hypnotize yourself. It's fine for relaxation,

lowering blood pressure, bliss and something called abiding in the Self,

whatever you think that is.

 

I don't know of any activity that excuses anyone from doing inquiry. And

while enlighenment may be described as abiding in the Self, or abiding in

nondual awareness, it's not something you can set as a goal or go for,

like lowering your blood pressure or feeling bliss. It takes a different

quality of hunger. It's an objective of a differentorder, because it

isn't achieved. It's what is, it's what remains. It's already achieved.

 

Having said that, I understand TM is beneficial to the health. Beyond

that, it's mind control.

[Guest guest]

You may be right, Jill, but

Jerry's post does remind me

of a favorite from

J. Krishnamurti:

_____

 

"Meditation is not the

repetition of the word, nor

the experiencing of a vision,

nor the cultivating of

silence. The bead and the

word do quieten the

chattering mind, but this is

a form of self-hypnosis. You

might as well take a pill."

_____

 

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:57:24 -0500 "Jill Eggers" <eggersj

writes:

> Jerry! I am surprised at this! It is aggressive and hostile and

> narrow--it seems a very conscious rudeness to many on this list

> whose paths and experiences differ from your own, and differ very

> much from the biases you express below.

>

> Jill

>

> >>> umbada 01/30/02 09:23 AM >>>

>

> If you're doing some mantra someone gave you, and you don't have

> the

> individual instinct to ask, "Who is repeating the mantra?", you

> lack the

> spiritual chops to even be on this list. You're not aware.

>

> And this really sounds wrong to my ear, making a sales pitch for

> abiding

> in the Self. That really sounds 'off' to me.

>

> Some mantras are sung or chanted by crowds and you get a very nice

> hypnotic effect. I nice atmosphere is created in which a Guru can

> step in

> and seem very wonderful and make his sales pitch.

>

> If you're talking about Bhagavan's Bliss, you can get it by

> chanting a

> mantra. It's called h-y-p-n-o-s-i-s.

>

> If your spiritual hunger is for more than peace, low blood

> pressure,

> clear thinking, health, bliss, and even abiding in the Self (how

> can a

> person hunger for that?!), then you need inquiry, Who am I?.

>

> Doing TM or anything at all, one needs to know who is doing it. To

> simply

> do the mantra is to hypnotize yourself. It's fine for relaxation,

> lowering blood pressure, bliss and something called abiding in the

> Self,

> whatever you think that is.

>

> I don't know of any activity that excuses anyone from doing

> inquiry. And

> while enlighenment may be described as abiding in the Self, or

> abiding in

> nondual awareness, it's not something you can set as a goal or go

> for,

> like lowering your blood pressure or feeling bliss. It takes a

> different

> quality of hunger. It's an objective of a differentorder, because

> it

> isn't achieved. It's what is, it's what remains. It's already

> achieved.

>

> Having said that, I understand TM is beneficial to the health.

> Beyond

> that, it's mind control.

>

______________

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[Guest guest]

, "Jill Eggers" <eggersj@g...> wrote:

> Jerry! I am surprised at this! It is aggressive and hostile and

> narrow--it seems a very conscious rudeness to many on this list

> whose paths and experiences differ from your own, and differ very

> much from the biases you express below.

>

> Jill

 

It's just as rude to post advertisements for money-hungry

spiritual organizations, which is what Jerry was responding to.

[Guest guest]

Dear Jody,

 

While Jiva'a preacherly condescension may have been the impetus for Jerry's

post, it is not what Jerry responded to. Instead he attacked a very broad realm

of spiritual practice, mantra meditation with the TM practice as his focus.

 

Some of us on the list have practiced TM for a long time and live with

ambivalence about the organization while finding the practice itself an

important and useful tool in the spiritual path. Jiva's post was just as

offensive and narrow as Jerry's, and posts like that can contribute to giving

any spiritual group or organization a bad name. Some people seem to have a role

on this list to teach us lessons of patience and forbearance, and others have a

more mature contribution to make. I have always counted Jerry among the latter

and felt the need to jump on this.

 

On the path to the Absolute, whether we use the vehicle of the discursive

thought of self-enquiry or seed thought-form of mantra, some combination, or

some other vehicle, it seems we usually peacefully agree around here that it is

ultimately not the thought that counts.

 

Thank you for listening to MY rant!

 

Jill

 

 

>>> jodyrrr 01/30/02 04:10PM >>>

, Jill Eggers<eggersj@g...> wrote:

> Jerry! I am surprised at this! It is aggressive and hostile and

> narrow--it seems a very conscious rudeness to many on this list

> whose paths and experiences differ from your own, and differ very

> much from the biases you express below.

>

> Jill

 

It's just as rude to post advertisements for money-hungry

spiritual organizations, which is what Jerry was responding to.

 

 

/join

 

 

 

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean,

all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does

not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is.

Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee

relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into

It Self. Welcome all to a.

 

 

 

Terms of Service

[Guest guest]

 

Jill Eggers [eggersj]

Wednesday, January 30, 2002 4:45 PM

Re: Self-enquiry is bliss all the way

 

Dear Jody,

 

While Jiva'a preacherly condescension may have been the impetus for Jerry's

post, it is not what Jerry responded to. Instead he attacked a very broad

realm of spiritual practice, mantra meditation with the TM practice as his

focus.

 

Some of us on the list have practiced TM for a long time and live with

ambivalence about the organization while finding the practice itself an

important and useful tool in the spiritual path. Jiva's post was just as

offensive and narrow as Jerry's, and posts like that can contribute to

giving any spiritual group or organization a bad name. Some people seem to

have a role on this list to teach us lessons of patience and forbearance,

and others have a more mature contribution to make. I have always counted

Jerry among the latter and felt the need to jump on this.

 

On the path to the Absolute, whether we use the vehicle of the discursive

thought of self-enquiry or seed thought-form of mantra, some combination, or

some other vehicle, it seems we usually peacefully agree around here that it

is ultimately not the thought that counts.

 

Thank you for listening to MY rant!

 

Jill

 

 

I love your ranting Jill. You are such an incredibly deep, compassionate,

and a loving person. Jerry is also in his own way. We gotta let Tom be Tom

and Jerry be Jerry. It's all a cat and mouse game, it seems, just like the

cartoons. Somebody has to play the cat and someone has to play the mouse.

At the end of the show the mouse is still alive and giggling.

Jill, your aura of kindness and goodness must be covering most of the

Midwest along with the snow. By the way, this is not a cue for Wim to get

his Aura Machine out! .

Lots of love to everyone!

Harsha

[Guest guest]

, "Jill Eggers" <eggersj@g...> wrote:

> Dear Jody,

>

> While Jiva'a preacherly condescension may have been the impetus for

> Jerry's post, it is not what Jerry responded to. Instead he attacked

> a very broad realm of spiritual practice, mantra meditation with the

> TM practice as his focus.

 

I wouldn't say he attacked it as much as characterized it as similar

to hypnosis when practiced in large groups.

 

[snip]

> Some people seem to have a role on this list to teach us lessons of

> patience and forbearance, and others have a more mature contribution

> to make. I have always counted Jerry among the latter and felt the

> need to jump on this.

 

He defied your expectations, but that doesn't make you his parent.

 

It is perfectly normal (in my view) to exhibit displeasure and

frustration with those who come off as jiva did.

> On the path to the Absolute, whether we use the vehicle of the

> discursive thought of self-enquiry or seed thought-form of mantra,

> some combination, or some other vehicle, it seems we usually

> peacefully agree around here that it is ultimately not the thought

> that counts.

>

> Thank you for listening to MY rant!

>

> Jill

 

I was initiated into a mantra by my guru, and it was my primary

mode of meditation, so I think I understand where you're coming

from. However, I didn't see Jerry's post as an attack on this

form of meditation as much as a critique of the TM presentation

of it.

[Guest guest]

 

jodyrrr [jodyrrr]

Wednesday, January 30, 2002 6:57 PM

Re: Self-enquiry is bliss all the way

 

> Some people seem to have a role on this list to teach us lessons of

> patience and forbearance, and others have a more mature contribution

> to make. I have always counted Jerry among the latter and felt the

> need to jump on this.

 

He defied your expectations, but that doesn't make you his parent.

********************************************

Jill has a very nurturing personality. You don't have to have kids to be a

good mom. Jill is a great mom!

Jerry, say Mama. Mama. Mama! .

OOOOOOOO Mama!

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Ha! You guys are cracking me up!

love

oedipus.

>>> harsha (AT) cox (DOT) net 01/30/02 19:04 PM >>>

Some people seem to have a role on this list to teach us lessons of

> patience and forbearance, and others have a more mature contribution

> to make. I have always counted Jerry among the latter and felt the

> need to jump on this.

He defied your expectations, but that doesn't make you his parent.

********************************************

Jill has a very nurturing personality. You don't have to have kids to be

a

good mom. Jill is a great mom!

Jerry, say Mama. Mama. Mama! .

OOOOOOOO Mama!

Harsha

Hey you guys!

I don't wanna be his mother! I wanna be his imaginary bitchy

girlfriend, slapping him in the gut with my handbag whenever he

embarrasses me in public! Don't make me an old lady before my time!

Jill

(The blonde chick in the back row with the glazed, hypnotic look in her eyes)

((Jerry, meet me out back behind the satsangh--I got some new mantras I wanna try out on you))

------------------------ Sponsor ---------------------~-->

Access Your PC from Anywhere

Full setup in 2 minutes! - Free Download

Click Here!

---~->

/join

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of

the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

Self. Welcome all to a.

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

, Jerry Katz <umbada@n...> wrote:

> > Wed, 30 Jan 2002 05:47:10 -0000

> > "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@h...>

> > Re: Self-enquiry is bliss all the way

> >

> > , "purushaz" <purushaz> wrote:

> > > my experience, Transcendental Meditation is superior to

> > > Self-Enquiry since one need not Enquire as to anything

> > > intellectually. The mantra cuts right through the mind and the

self

> > > resides in the Self. Once the mind is dispensed with through

cutting

> > > through it, it's no longer a bother and one can unrelentingly

abide

> > > in Bhagavan's Bliss. The Self-Enquiry aspect to what

> > > Bhagavan has to offer is a reflection of his short

> > > Sadhana period before realizing the Self, combined with

> > > the fact that he was already 99.999999....% of the way

> > > "there". For ordinary folks, a more powerful

> > > mode of transportation is needed to cut

> > > through the mind and abide in the source of

> > > thought: the Self. What makes this possible is

> > > the power in the mantra which enlivens it as

> > > a vehicle; thus making any intellectual

> > > Enquiry as to the "I-I" a second rate

> > > technique. However, only those people

> > > reading this post who have made the

> > > experiential comparison test are truly

> > > qualified to judge the truth of my

> > > statements, for themselves. Others are

> > > onlookers. Sincerely, jiva

> >

> > Shameless plug for yet another spiritual ponzi scheme noted.

>

> If you're doing some mantra someone gave you, and you don't have

the individual instinct to ask, "Who is repeating the mantra?", you

lack the spiritual chops to even be on this list. You're not aware.

>

> And this really sounds wrong to my ear, making a sales pitch for

abiding in the Self. That really sounds 'off' to me.

>

> Some mantras are sung or chanted by crowds and you get a very nice

hypnotic effect. I nice atmosphere is created in which a Guru can

step in and seem very wonderful and make his sales pitch.

>

> If you're talking about Bhagavan's Bliss, you can get it by

chanting a mantra. It's called h-y-p-n-o-s-i-s.

>

> If your spiritual hunger is for more than peace, low blood

pressure, clear thinking, health, bliss, and even abiding in the Self

(how can a person hunger for that?!), then you need inquiry, Who am

I?.

>

> Doing TM or anything at all, one needs to know who is doing it. To

simply do the mantra is to hypnotize yourself. It's fine for

relaxation, lowering blood pressure, bliss and something called

abiding in the Self, whatever you think that is.

>

> I don't know of any activity that excuses anyone from doing

inquiry. And while enlighenment may be described as abiding in the

Self, or abiding in nondual awareness, it's not something you can set

as a goal or go for, like lowering your blood pressure or feeling

bliss. It takes a different quality of hunger. It's an objective of a

different order, because it isn't achieved. It's what is, it's what

remains. It's already achieved.

>

> Having said that, I understand TM is beneficial to the health.

Beyond that, it's mind control.

> The same reasoning can be said to apply to self-enquiry (inquiry).

It's an intellectual pursuit, by definition, unless one renames

it "self-abidance", a favorite expression of I-Nome's. I don't see

how you can evaluate TM on the basis of theory, not having tried it.

Experientially, what one thinks during TM meditation is irrelevant:

money, food, job, whatever; as long as one returns to the mantra. The

power in the mantra enables the mind to transcend itself, which is

why they call it TRANSCENDENTAL meditation. Then Self-abidance

occurs, initially for brief moments, then longer. There is no

expectation that right away, Self-Abidance will be continuous, 24/7,

right from the start of practicing TM, although that is

possible...just not likely. Thus, TM is a "progressive" path, as

opposed to Ramana's more direct approach. Thanks for your response.

It's a typical, logical response from one lacking direct experience

(though appreciated) Sincerely, jiva

> Jerry

> http://nonduality.com/retreat.htm

[Guest guest]

, "Harsha" wrote:

> say Mama. Mama. Mama! .

> OOOOOOOO Mama!

 

"Mama," today,

"Can I have the keys to the car

and eighty dollars for shoes,"

tomorrow.

[Guest guest]

Jerry writes:

>I guess I find it hard to believe that a person will practice something

>and not look at who is practicing or ever look at attention itself.

 

Dear Jerry, list,

 

Perhaps what is at issue here is the different ways of attaining realisation.

Some use inquiry, and some use surrender. Perhaps mantras and guru worship

aid in serving the path of surrender. Perhaps there is also a cultural

difference here between what is easier for women and for men.

 

When asked "what is unconditional surrender?" Sri Ramana Maharshi said "If

one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask questions or to be thought

of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on to the root-thought 'I'

or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the Higher Power. These are the

only two ways for Realisation. p. 285 [All quotes from Talks with Sri

Ramana Maharshi]

 

When asked "kindly instruct me as to how the mind may be controlled," Sri

Ramana Maharshi replied "There are two methods. The one is to see what the

mind is; then it subsides. The second is to fix your attention on something;

then the mind remains quiet."p. 49

 

And again: "Surrender to Him...Leave everything entirely to Him. His is the

burden: you have no longer any cares. All your cares are His. Such is

surrender. This is bhakti.

 

Or, enquire to whom these questions arise. Dive deep in the Heart and remain

as the Self. One of these two ways is open to the aspirant. p. 425

 

And again: Surrender is Bhakti Yoga. To reach the source of the 'I'-thought

is the destruction of the ego, is the attainment of the goal, is prapatti

(surrender), jnana, etc. p.115

 

But ultimately )

 

Maharshi: "Who witnesses the transformation"

Questioner: "You seem to speak jnana yoga. This is jnana yoga."

Maharshi: Yes it is.

Questioner: But surrender is bhakti yoga.

Marharshi: Both are the same.

p. 405

 

Love, Hillary

[Guest guest]

Dear Hillary:

 

Thanks a lot. I liked your clear and one pointed essay.

 

Love Bobby G.

 

 

, druout@a... wrote:

> Jerry writes:

>

> >I guess I find it hard to believe that a person will practice

something

> >and not look at who is practicing or ever look at attention itself.

>

> Dear Jerry, list,

>

> Perhaps what is at issue here is the different ways of attaining

realisation.

> Some use inquiry, and some use surrender. Perhaps mantras and

guru worship

> aid in serving the path of surrender. Perhaps there is also a

cultural

> difference here between what is easier for women and for men.

>

> When asked "what is unconditional surrender?" Sri Ramana Maharshi

said "If

> one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask questions or to

be thought

> of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on to the root-

thought 'I'

> or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the Higher Power.

These are the

> only two ways for Realisation. p. 285 [All quotes from Talks with

Sri

> Ramana Maharshi]

>

> When asked "kindly instruct me as to how the mind may be

controlled," Sri

> Ramana Maharshi replied "There are two methods. The one is to see

what the

> mind is; then it subsides. The second is to fix your attention on

something;

> then the mind remains quiet."p. 49

>

> And again: "Surrender to Him...Leave everything entirely to Him.

His is the

> burden: you have no longer any cares. All your cares are His.

Such is

> surrender. This is bhakti.

>

> Or, enquire to whom these questions arise. Dive deep in the Heart

and remain

> as the Self. One of these two ways is open to the aspirant. p. 425

>

> And again: Surrender is Bhakti Yoga. To reach the source of

the 'I'-thought

> is the destruction of the ego, is the attainment of the goal, is

prapatti

> (surrender), jnana, etc. p.115

>

> But ultimately )

>

> Maharshi: "Who witnesses the transformation"

> Questioner: "You seem to speak jnana yoga. This is jnana yoga."

> Maharshi: Yes it is.

> Questioner: But surrender is bhakti yoga.

> Marharshi: Both are the same.

> p. 405

>

> Love, Hillary

[Guest guest]

, "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg@a...> wrote:

> Dear Hillary:

>

> Thanks a lot. I liked your clear and one pointed essay.

>

> Love Bobby G.

 

It's a good clarification, inquiry vs. surrender. They're the same.

 

Each person has to come from their own nature. Pushing TM or anything

else on someone is not encouraging someone to be present in their own

nature.

 

I was encouraging questioning.

 

The bottom line is that someone come from their own nature and be

encouraged to do so. I didn't see the TM guy doing that and I stood up

for people's freedom.

 

Jerry

> , druout@a... wrote:

> > Jerry writes:

> >

> > >I guess I find it hard to believe that a person will practice

> something

> > >and not look at who is practicing or ever look at attention

itself.

> >

> > Dear Jerry, list,

> >

> > Perhaps what is at issue here is the different ways of attaining

> realisation.

> > Some use inquiry, and some use surrender. Perhaps mantras and

> guru worship

> > aid in serving the path of surrender. Perhaps there is also a

> cultural

> > difference here between what is easier for women and for men.

> >

> > When asked "what is unconditional surrender?" Sri Ramana Maharshi

> said "If

> > one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask questions or to

> be thought

> > of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on to the root-

> thought 'I'

> > or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the Higher Power.

> These are the

> > only two ways for Realisation. p. 285 [All quotes from Talks

with

> Sri

> > Ramana Maharshi]

> >

> > When asked "kindly instruct me as to how the mind may be

> controlled," Sri

> > Ramana Maharshi replied "There are two methods. The one is to see

> what the

> > mind is; then it subsides. The second is to fix your attention on

> something;

> > then the mind remains quiet."p. 49

> >

> > And again: "Surrender to Him...Leave everything entirely to Him.

> His is the

> > burden: you have no longer any cares. All your cares are His.

> Such is

> > surrender. This is bhakti.

> >

> > Or, enquire to whom these questions arise. Dive deep in the Heart

> and remain

> > as the Self. One of these two ways is open to the aspirant. p.

425

> >

> > And again: Surrender is Bhakti Yoga. To reach the source of

> the 'I'-thought

> > is the destruction of the ego, is the attainment of the goal, is

> prapatti

> > (surrender), jnana, etc. p.115

> >

> > But ultimately )

> >

> > Maharshi: "Who witnesses the transformation"

> > Questioner: "You seem to speak jnana yoga. This is jnana yoga."

> > Maharshi: Yes it is.

> > Questioner: But surrender is bhakti yoga.

> > Marharshi: Both are the same.

> > p. 405

> >

> > Love, Hillary

[Guest guest]

 

nondualguy [umbada]

Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:10 PM

Re: Self-enquiry is bliss all the way

 

It's a good clarification, inquiry vs. surrender. They're the same.

 

Each person has to come from their own nature. Pushing TM or anything

else on someone is not encouraging someone to be present in their own

nature.

 

I was encouraging questioning.

 

The bottom line is that someone come from their own nature and be

encouraged to do so. I didn't see the TM guy doing that and I stood up

for people's freedom.

 

Jerry

 

Thanks Jerry.

We (the people) salute you!

Love

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Hillary is the best! I love your Ramana quotes Hillary!

 

You find all the best stuff.

 

For those who may not know, Hillary is the grandma of the HS list.

 

Jai Sri Grandma!

 

Love

Harsha

 

 

 

druout [druout]

Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:50 PM

RE: Re: Self-enquiry is bliss all the way

 

Jerry writes:

>I guess I find it hard to believe that a person will practice something

>and not look at who is practicing or ever look at attention itself.

 

Dear Jerry, list,

 

Perhaps what is at issue here is the different ways of attaining

realisation.

Some use inquiry, and some use surrender. Perhaps mantras and guru worship

aid in serving the path of surrender. Perhaps there is also a cultural

difference here between what is easier for women and for men.

 

When asked "what is unconditional surrender?" Sri Ramana Maharshi said "If

one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask questions or to be

thought

of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on to the root-thought

'I'

or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the Higher Power. These are

the

only two ways for Realisation. p. 285 [All quotes from Talks with Sri

Ramana Maharshi]

 

When asked "kindly instruct me as to how the mind may be controlled," Sri

Ramana Maharshi replied "There are two methods. The one is to see what the

mind is; then it subsides. The second is to fix your attention on

something;

then the mind remains quiet."p. 49

 

And again: "Surrender to Him...Leave everything entirely to Him. His is

the

burden: you have no longer any cares. All your cares are His. Such is

surrender. This is bhakti.

 

Or, enquire to whom these questions arise. Dive deep in the Heart and

remain

as the Self. One of these two ways is open to the aspirant. p. 425

 

And again: Surrender is Bhakti Yoga. To reach the source of the

'I'-thought

is the destruction of the ego, is the attainment of the goal, is prapatti

(surrender), jnana, etc. p.115

 

But ultimately )

 

Maharshi: "Who witnesses the transformation"

Questioner: "You seem to speak jnana yoga. This is jnana yoga."

Maharshi: Yes it is.

Questioner: But surrender is bhakti yoga.

Marharshi: Both are the same.

p. 405

 

Love, Hillary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/join

 

 

 

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to