Guest guest Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 , "purushaz" <purushaz> wrote: [snip] > > The same reasoning can be said to apply to self-enquiry (inquiry). > It's an intellectual pursuit, by definition, unless one renames > it "self-abidance", a favorite expression of I-Nome's. Who the heck is I-Nome? Is this a commercial for her/her/it? A comparison spot between self-inquiry™ and self-abidance™ brand sadhanas? > I don't see > how you can evaluate TM on the basis of theory, not having tried it. Simple. TM is simple mantra practice. It has been practiced for a long time. > Experientially, what one thinks during TM meditation is irrelevant: > money, food, job, whatever; as long as one returns to the mantra. That's just like vipassana, except you focus on the breath. > The > power in the mantra enables the mind to transcend itself, which is > why they call it TRANSCENDENTAL meditation. Get yours now! Final offer! > Then Self-abidance > occurs, initially for brief moments, then longer. The same occurs with many well practiced meditations. > There is no > expectation that right away, Self-Abidance will be continuous, 24/7, > right from the start of practicing TM, although that is > possible...just not likely. It's as equally likely (or unlikely) with any other number of non-commercial methods. > Thus, TM is a "progressive" path, as > opposed to Ramana's more direct approach. What Ramana knew that you folk don't is that there is no progression. It's not a matter of getting anywhere, it's a matter of seeing where you already are. > Thanks for your response. > It's a typical, logical response from one lacking direct experience > (though appreciated) Sincerely, jiva And yours runs as one long commercial for the most commercial spiritual enterprise ever manifested by Maya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Hillary is the best! I love your Ramana quotes Hillary! You find all the best stuff. For those who may not know, Hillary is the grandma of the HS list. Jai Sri Grandma! Yes, many thanks to our always helpful friend Hillary. The quotes were invaluable. lt sometimes seems that there's an implication that jnana is superior to all other paths. These quotes indicate that Ramana didn't necessarily see it that way (not that one needs to hear Ramana say it to know it's so). jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Simple. TM is simple mantra practice. It has been practiced for a long time. > Experientially, what one thinks during TM meditation is irrelevant: > money, food, job, whatever; as long as one returns to the mantra. That's just like vipassana, except you focus on the breath. l don't want to be nitpicky or overly critical here, , but just to clarify, based on my own expereince. Regarding the above, having practiced vipassana quite a bit before my energy eruption 10 yrs ago, l just wanted to say that it is far different from TM. As Daniel Goleman wrote extensively in his classic THE MEDITATIVE MIND years ago, while TM is a concentration practice, vipassana is both a concentration and insight practice. Also vipassana is one of the most versatile of practices, in that virtually anything can be used as an object of meditation -- not only the breath but also body sensations, emotions, thoughts, sounds, etc. This is not to say that vipassana is superior to TM (okay, l think it is, but l'm biased . > Thus, TM is a "progressive" path, as > opposed to Ramana's more direct approach. What Ramana knew that you folk don't is that there is no progression. It's not a matter of getting anywhere, it's a matter of seeing where you already are. l hope we're not saying the progressive element is necessarily lacking on the spiritual path. l know there's truth in the statement that it's a matter of seeing where you already are, but preparation is also required in many cases. l'm thinking of the ngondro practices in Tibetan Buddhism, and the preparation required for working with kundalini energy (as well as the progression of the energy itself), as examples of preparation (ie progression) involved in some paths. jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 , "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg@a...> wrote: > Dear Hillary: > > Thanks a lot. I liked your clear and one pointed essay. > > Love Bobby G. Dear Bobby, Thanks! ) It's really neat how sometimes it all comes together so neatly! Love, Grandma Hillary > > > > > > But ultimately ) > > > > Maharshi: "Who witnesses the transformation" > > Questioner: "You seem to speak jnana yoga. This is jnana yoga." > > Maharshi: Yes it is. > > Questioner: But surrender is bhakti yoga. > > Marharshi: Both are the same. > > p. 405 > > > > Love, Hillary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 , GCWein1111@a... wrote: [snip] > l don't want to be nitpicky or overly critical here, , but > just to clarify, based on my own expereince. Regarding the above, > having practiced vipassana quite a bit before my energy eruption > 10 yrs ago, l just wanted to say that it is far different from TM. > As Daniel Goleman wrote extensively in his classic THE MEDITATIVE > MIND years ago, while TM is a concentration practice, vipassana is > both a concentration and insight practice. Also vipassana is one of > the most versatile of practices, in that virtually anything can be > used as an object of meditation -- not only the breath but also body > sensations, emotions, thoughts, sounds, etc. This is not to say that > vipassana is superior to TM (okay, l think it is, but l'm biased . Thanks for the insight Jerry. I'd have to agree that vipassana is at least a more versitile practice and probably just as effective. [snip] > l hope we're not saying the progressive element is necessarily > lacking on the spiritual path. l know there's truth in the > statement that it's a matter of seeing where you already are, > but preparation is also required in many cases. l'm thinking > of the ngondro practices in Tibetan Buddhism, and the preparation > required for working with kundalini energy (as well as the > progression of the energy itself), as examples of preparation (ie > progression) involved in some paths. > > jerry There is certainly some kind of transformation that occurs in the mind of the sadhaka. However, the sought after end of that transformation is always right there, closer than our own breath, throughout our practice. It never gets any closer than it already is. Seeing it might require a little house cleaning, but the floor can still be seen even when it remains covered by dirt in some spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 , "nondualguy" <umbada@n...> wrote: > , "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg@a...> wrote: > > Dear Hillary: > > > > Thanks a lot. I liked your clear and one pointed essay. > > > > Love Bobby G. > > It's a good clarification, inquiry vs. surrender. They're the same. > > Each person has to come from their own nature. Pushing TM or anything > else on someone is not encouraging someone to be present in their own > nature. > > I was encouraging questioning. > > The bottom line is that someone come from their own nature and be > encouraged to do so. I didn't see the TM guy doing that and I stood up > for people's freedom. > > Jerry Dear Jerry; It is my understanding that the use of a mantra is essentially breath control and not surrender. The control of the in breath and out breath with the inner or outer sound quietens the mind, improves health and so forth. The mantra I had was this way. I don't know about TM. The belief that one Mantra is objectively better than another is suspect in my opinion. Its strength would depend on the faith one holds in it. That is different than surrender. Surrender is destruction of the ego. Breath control makes the mind submerge but it re-emerges once control is lost and resumes where it left off. Self inquiry requires holding the "I" thought current which causes the mind to submerge. With time this leads to tracing the "I" thought to its source causing the ego to be destroyed not to re- emerge. This would make Self inquiry superior to TM. Don't let 'em git by with nothin'. Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 , "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg@a...> wrote: > , "nondualguy" <umbada@n...> wrote: > > , "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg@a...> wrote: > > > Dear Hillary: > > > > > > Thanks a lot. I liked your clear and one pointed essay. > > > > > > Love Bobby G. > > > > It's a good clarification, inquiry vs. surrender. They're the same. > > > > Each person has to come from their own nature. Pushing TM or > anything > > else on someone is not encouraging someone to be present in their > own > > nature. > > > > I was encouraging questioning. > > > > The bottom line is that someone come from their own nature and be > > encouraged to do so. I didn't see the TM guy doing that and I stood > up > > for people's freedom. > > > > Jerry > > > Dear Jerry; > > It is my understanding that the use of a mantra is essentially breath > control and not surrender. Hi Bobby, Yes, such is what has happened to the mantra. Now, I prefer to speak from my own knowing and experience, and I don't quote. This leaves gaps in my 'arguments' and leaves them less than seamless, but that's okay. I trust the holographic value of speaking only from knowing and that that is more valuable than a tight argument. Of course both experience and a tight argument make for optimum discourse. I'll try. Let me offer that my experience with mantras is that a 'real' mantra arrives like thunder and shakes your world, leaving no choice but to surrender. It awakens the I AM like a sleeping giant that turns and stands all tired and grumpy. You have, like I say, no choice but to surrender. How did this so-called 'real' mantra get parted-out so that everyone gets a little of it but no one gets the original thunder? Why not create conditions where the 'real' mantra can manifest? Those are pretty big questions, I don't want to get into it right now. What seems to have happened is that this 'parting-out' has occurred. Not only that, but the original purpose of the mantra, which is to shake loose all the illusions so that they fall away, has been lost. Now it's purpose is to bring calm, peace, and lowered blood pressure. This only mocks the mantra of power. Give mantras that when uttered rip one apart. Shake foundations. Rock your world. Strip away false living. Then there's no question of surrender. You ain't asking whether you should surrender. You are surrendering for survival. What I've offered is a description of another kind of mantra encounter and how TM and many other practices may be much attenuated versions. The so-called 'real' mantra may be given by an outer or the inner Guru. It is not intended for calm meditation. It's intent is devastation. Some may explain the 'real' mantra with the Kundalini model. I've tried to show how there could be mantras which would demand surrender and that they come from the diehold via the outer or inner Guru. The mantras given by TM and other practices are not from the guru or the diehold. They are much removed from the diehold. >The control of the in breath and out > breath with the inner or outer sound quietens the mind, improves > health and so forth. > The mantra I had was this way. I don't know about TM. The belief > that one Mantra is objectively better than another is suspect in my > opinion. Its strength would depend on the faith one holds in it. > > That is different than surrender. Surrender is destruction of the > ego. Breath control makes the mind submerge but it re-emerges once > control is lost and resumes where it left off. Yes, because you weren't give a mantra of real power. You mention the role of faith. The strength of a weak mantra may depend on faith, but faith gets wiped out by a 'real' mantra. > Self inquiry requires holding the "I" thought current which causes > the mind to submerge. With time this leads to tracing the "I" > thought to its source causing the ego to be destroyed not to re- > emerge. > > This would make Self inquiry superior to TM. Well, I still wouldn't say one thing is superior or inferior to another. The moment is perfect. There's no reason to do anything other than this. I'm just talking about experiences and comparing them. I'm prattling. I'm not giving advice. If one person is dealing with TM and other with a mantra of power, one is not superior or inferior to the other. The moment is everything and all talk is prattle. No one has to do or experience anything. Stillness! > Don't let 'em git by with nothin'. "One look into the eyes of the Master, you can never look away." > Love > Bobby G. Love, Jerry http://nonduality.com/retreat.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 , GCWein1111@a... wrote: > In a message dated 1/31/02 6:52:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, harsha@c... > writes: > To Hillary...whoever (whomever?) you are. Thanks for smoothing things over...Sincerely, jiva, the "TM" guy > > > Hillary is the best! I love your Ramana quotes Hillary! > > > > You find all the best stuff. > > > > For those who may not know, Hillary is the grandma of the HS list. > > > > Jai Sri Grandma! > > > > Yes, many thanks to our always helpful friend Hillary. The quotes > were invaluable. lt sometimes seems that there's an implication that jnana is > superior to all other paths. These quotes indicate that Ramana didn't > necessarily see it that way (not that one needs to hear Ramana say it to know > it's so). jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 Dear Jerry Your description of a 'real' mantra is not new to me. My mantra was presented to me as such and at the time it shook my world. In fact it changed my perspective on the 'world', but it was still an objective 'world' with me somehow standing outside looking in. Since now I do not recognize any world in which their would be any 'thing', mantra included, that would not be relative to my sensing it, I still believe it is one's mentation concerning the mantra that gives it strength. I do think there would be one best mantra for the needs of a person depending on their karma. This makes sense to me, but not one single 'real' mantra that possesses special powers. That sounds too much like the God in Heaven theory. Depending on what needs shaking in one's life, a pre-parted mantra would certainly be nice. Love Bobby G. , "nondualguy" <umbada@n...> wrote: > , "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg@a...> wrote: > > , "nondualguy" <umbada@n...> wrote: > > > , "texasbg2000" <bgbbyg@a...> wrote: > > > > Dear Hillary: > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot. I liked your clear and one pointed essay. > > > > > > > > Love Bobby G. > > > > > > It's a good clarification, inquiry vs. surrender. They're the > same. > > > > > > Each person has to come from their own nature. Pushing TM or > > anything > > > else on someone is not encouraging someone to be present in their > > own > > > nature. > > > > > > I was encouraging questioning. > > > > > > The bottom line is that someone come from their own nature and be > > > encouraged to do so. I didn't see the TM guy doing that and I > stood > > up > > > for people's freedom. > > > > > > Jerry > > > > > > Dear Jerry; > > > > It is my understanding that the use of a mantra is essentially > breath > > control and not surrender. > > Hi Bobby, > > Yes, such is what has happened to the mantra. > > Now, I prefer to speak from my own knowing and experience, and I don't > quote. This leaves gaps in my 'arguments' and leaves them less than > seamless, but that's okay. I trust the holographic value of speaking > only from knowing and that that is more valuable than a tight > argument. Of course both experience and a tight argument make for > optimum discourse. I'll try. > > Let me offer that my experience with mantras is that a 'real' mantra > arrives like thunder and shakes your world, leaving no choice but to > surrender. It awakens the I AM like a sleeping giant that turns and > stands all tired and grumpy. You have, like I say, no choice but to > surrender. > > How did this so-called 'real' mantra get parted-out so that everyone > gets a little of it but no one gets the original thunder? Why not > create conditions where the 'real' mantra can manifest? > > Those are pretty big questions, I don't want to get into it right now. > > What seems to have happened is that this 'parting-out' has occurred. > Not only that, but the original purpose of the mantra, which is to > shake loose all the illusions so that they fall away, has been lost. > Now it's purpose is to bring calm, peace, and lowered blood pressure. > This only mocks the mantra of power. > > Give mantras that when uttered rip one apart. Shake foundations. Rock > your world. Strip away false living. Then there's no question of > surrender. You ain't asking whether you should surrender. You are > surrendering for survival. > > What I've offered is a description of another kind of mantra encounter > and how TM and many other practices may be much attenuated versions. > > The so-called 'real' mantra may be given by an outer or the inner > Guru. It is not intended for calm meditation. It's intent is > devastation. Some may explain the 'real' mantra with the Kundalini > model. > > I've tried to show how there could be mantras which would demand > surrender and that they come from the diehold via the outer or inner > Guru. The mantras given by TM and other practices are not from the > guru or the diehold. They are much removed from the diehold. > > > >The control of the in breath and out > > breath with the inner or outer sound quietens the mind, improves > > health and so forth. > > The mantra I had was this way. I don't know about TM. The belief > > that one Mantra is objectively better than another is suspect in my > > opinion. Its strength would depend on the faith one holds in it. > > > > That is different than surrender. Surrender is destruction of the > > ego. Breath control makes the mind submerge but it re-emerges once > > control is lost and resumes where it left off. > > Yes, because you weren't give a mantra of real power. You mention the > role of faith. The strength of a weak mantra may depend on faith, but > faith gets wiped out by a 'real' mantra. > > > Self inquiry requires holding the "I" thought current which causes > > the mind to submerge. With time this leads to tracing the "I" > > thought to its source causing the ego to be destroyed not to re- > > emerge. > > > > This would make Self inquiry superior to TM. > > Well, I still wouldn't say one thing is superior or inferior to > another. The moment is perfect. There's no reason to do anything other > than this. I'm just talking about experiences and comparing them. > I'm prattling. I'm not giving advice. If one person is dealing with TM > and other with a mantra of power, one is not superior or inferior to > the other. The moment is everything and all talk is prattle. No one > has to do or experience anything. Stillness! > > > Don't let 'em git by with nothin'. > > "One look into the eyes of the Master, you can never look away." > > > Love > > Bobby G. > > Love, > Jerry > http://nonduality.com/retreat.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@h...> wrote: > , "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > > Thanks for asking Garbriele. The process of self-inquiry is > primarily a psychological endeavor. We look at the root of > our experience and discern those personality traits that appear > to be involved, thereby eliminating them as the foundation of > our being. This exposes another layer of personality to be > traversed. Contained within the personality are all sorts of > hidden feelings and memories. Some good and some not so good. > The process itself seeks only discovery and has no preference > for the good or the bad. They both must come to the light and > be recognized for their occluding power to be eliminated. I would add that the process of self inquiry is also an energetic one when the mind has a tendency for Kundalini-Shakti energy. Hitting the right "tone" or "form" of self inquiry, ie not the verbalization of the question but the focusing on the sensation of being and existing in itself, can be felt physically and sets in motion the processes that empties the subconscious. The centering on existence by attention allows other parts of the mind and in particular the subconscious to vanish, so the process of self inquiry becomes one of centering on attention and ignoring the thoughts and oddities that come up in the mean time. This breaking up of mind material can take years but can also be very fast depending on how much material needs to be taken away to unclog the drain so to speak. > > Is it a road of bliss and/or very often the contrary? > > There is certainly bliss on the way, but no pain, no gain. or loss. > Self-inquiry is more than a occasional remedy for one's suffering. > It's a lifestyle, a total committment to self understanding. One must > apply themselves with their whole beings to the process, including > those obstacles and the pain in the mind. Self-inquiry is not some > sort of psychological Prozac, it's a USMC bootcamp. You might get > a 3-day pass to enjoy at the Bliss Bar, but come Monday morning > you're back in the barracks, getting up before dawn to go on a 20 > mile hike through the rain with a 75 pound pack. This is the kind > of regimen that an effective self-inquiry demands. it may look like a remedy at first and it is, but yeah, bootcamp is probably tough, self inquiry can be tough, but both does prepare you well. Love, Amanda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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