Jill/Jiva/and the gang

[Guest guest]

Hi Jill, Jiva and others who responded to my TM letter,

 

I didn't mean to attack anyone's method. I know there is power in TM. I

do find it hard to imagine that people do things without an awareness of

who is doing it, or why they're doing it, or what they're doing.

 

"Jerry! I am surprised at this! It is aggressive and hostile and

narrow--it seems a very

conscious rudeness to many on this list whose paths and experiences

differ from your own, and

differ very much from the biases you express below." --Jill

 

Thanks for letting me know! I guess harsha's list differs more NDS than

I thought. That's good. We don't want every list to be like NDS. Even

though we're the right ones. But seriously... I'll try to be more

conscious of the differences.

 

Bruce quoted Krishnamurti:

 

"Meditation is not the

repetition of the word, nor

the experiencing of a vision,

nor the cultivating of

silence. The bead and the

word do quieten the

chattering mind, but this is

a form of self-hypnosis. You

might as well take a pill."

 

so who am i to argue with that dude? or with jill? they both scare me!

 

Further, Jill said: "On the path to the Absolute, whether we use the

vehicle of the discursive thought of

self-enquiry or seed thought-form of mantra, some combination, or some

other vehicle, it seems we usually peacefully agree around here that it

is ultimately not the thought that counts."

 

What counts, then? What has meaning? The Absolute, or nondual knowing,

is beyond meaning and meaninglessness, so I'm not sure what should

count. The only thing that counts, that I know of, is the hunger to

know. But to know what? Anyway, sorry if I'm not being peaceful.

 

At some point, whether one is doing TM or anything else, whether one is

a world class philosopher or physicist with one of the generation's

finest minds, at some point in their probing, practicing, meditating,

thinking, a point is going to come in which there is a look into the

nature of who they are. This is often done by looking at attention

itself, because attention is the means by which all probing is done.

 

I guess I find it hard to believe that a person will practice something

and not look at who is practicing or ever look at attention itself.

 

In TM a person may find they've simple disappeared and maybe there is no

typical inquiry. Maybe that could happen. I suppose it does. But that

disappearance would be noted, and in that noting, inquiry is done, if

even for an instant. When is that noting done? After the disappearance,

or loss of ego, a period of adjustment normally occurs. This is the time

when there is 'no mountain'. I don't know anything about TM, but if one

has been chanting a mantra and manages to get to the point of no

mountain, it means one has become the mantra. I suppose TM accounts for

this loss of ego.

 

And Jody said, "It's just as rude to post advertisements for

money-hungry spiritual organizations, which is what Jerry was responding

to."

 

Well, I guess I react to what I see as people standing up for

organizations and claiming what they offer is better something else,

especially inquiry, considering this list was blessed by Ramana. Okay,

so it was Steve Ramana, the guy who owns the corner store and bets on

horses. Nevertheless.

 

Jill said:

>While Jiva's preacherly condescension may have been the

>impetus for Jerry's post, it is not what Jerry responded

>to. Instead he attacked a very broad realm of spiritual

>practice, mantra meditation with the TM practice as his

>focus.

 

'Attack' seems like strong word. But it's true, I think mantra

meditation is valuable as a way to relax and a way to enter into subtle

realms of attention. It's a way to clear the mind. There are probably

countless benefits to mantra meditation.

>Some of us on the list have practiced TM for a long time

>and live with ambivalence about the organization while

>finding the practice itself an important and useful tool in

>the spiritual path.

 

i have no doubt about that.

 

>Jiva's post was just as offensive and

>narrow as Jerry's, and posts like that can contribute to

>giving any spiritual group or organization a bad name.

 

I don't think either post was offensive or narrow. I think they were

honest expressions. Calling for inquiry isn't narrow, that I'm aware of.

 

I'd like to know who some of the enlightened beings are that have come

out of TM, and what they teach now. We went recently to see Sri Sri Ravi

Shankar. He came out of TM and has millions of followers. I love the

guy, but his teaching is about ways to reduce stress, perhaps even ways

to stop the world. He gives a meditation method. He uses chanting,

singing, all these ways of creating a peaceful situation. It may sound

rude, but I call it hypnosis. I know what I see and feel.

 

I'd rather have a nervous jewish guy in a bad suit get on stage and tell

me stop hocking myself, to stop nudging myself, to stop knocking, to

stop making myself get all vertumult, to stop hocking a chainik already.

What? I need peaceful music played by someone with a dot on their

forehead? I need that? What does that have to do with anything? I need a

mantra all of a sudden? allright, NOW I'm being rude. I'm definitely

being rude.

 

Next.

 

Jody said:

>I was initiated into a mantra by my guru, and it was my primary

>mode of meditation, so I think I understand where you're coming

>from. However, I didn't see Jerry's post as an attack on this

>form of meditation as much as a critique of the TM presentation

>of it.

 

I hope I'm not attacking anything. If you feel my letter warrants it,

maybe mantra meditation beyond the TM organization party line could be

discussed. What I've been saying is that when a person does something it

seems like a natural thing to ask why it's being done and who's asking.

That's why I never followed any teacher or teaching, I guess, because I

was always stuck at those questions.

 

When I was a kid my mother always wanted me to join the cub scouts, the

boy scouts, the girl scouts. Anything. Go out, she would say. Join

something. Even my late wife used to tell me to join something. Join the

elks, she would say, the lions, the antelope, the girl scouts. I always

asked why I had to join. There was no reason to join anything.

Everything was okay right here.

 

Now i'm 52 years old and live by myself in a little room and share a

bath with other tenants. (Not at the same time.) And I know this girl

who says, Get out, join something, buy a condo, get married, get a

career, join the girl scouts. I ask why. There's no reason to so I stay

right here. It's all inquiry. Why? Who? I haven't found any reasons to

do anything.

 

Now Jill again:

>Hey you guys!

>I don't wanna be his mother! I wanna be his imaginary

>bitchy girlfriend, slapping him in the gut with my handbag

>whenever he embarrasses me in public! Don't make me an old

>lady before my time!

>Jill (The blonde chick in the back row with the glazed,

>hypnotic look in her eyes) ((Jerry, meet me out back behind

>the satsangh--I got some new mantras I wanna try out on

>you))

 

Alright. Look. Here's what Harsha has to do. Each guy needs an online

girlfriend who will hit him with her pocket book everytime he acts like

a jerk. Harsha needs to do some matchmaking. But Jill, if you start

nudging me about joining the elks club...

 

jerry

(a sucker for a blonde)

[Guest guest]

 

Jerry Katz [umbada]

Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:47 PM

hs

Jill/Jiva/and the gang

Now i'm 52 years old and live by myself in a little room and share a

bath with other tenants. (Not at the same time.) And I know this girl

who says, Get out, join something, buy a condo, get married, get a

career, join the girl scouts. I ask why. There's no reason to so I stay

right here. It's all inquiry. Why? Who? I haven't found any reasons to

do anything.

 

Alright. Look. Here's what Harsha has to do. Each guy needs an online

girlfriend who will hit him with her pocket book everytime he acts like

a jerk. Harsha needs to do some matchmaking. But Jill, if you start

nudging me about joining the elks club...

 

jerry

(a sucker for a blonde)

*************************************

This is great Jerry! I love you man.

You pee all over TM and now give your particulars and tell us you are

looking for a girl friend (who does TM).

Actually I enjoyed what you wrote. Frankly, an honest inquiry is what I see

you doing here. There is no harm in questioning the fundamental assumptions

behind any method, technique, or tradition. Jody and Bruce are pointing to

that questioning. If people are afraid of that, they need to be asking why?

Self-honesty is all we've got.

Love to all

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Hi,

This topic is timely for me as I have often questioned techniques,

teachings and paths. In my own pursuit I have gone from doing up to

3 hours of yoga/mantra/meditation per day for years to doing nothing

except observing and everything in between.

Often during consultations I will suggest a particular technique for

someone based on what is happening in one's chart. I do not know of

anyone who became enlightened through techniques though I have see

many spiral deeper into illusion and ego through doing too much yoga.

However, there is value to chants, asanas, meditations, etc.

Perhaps, as Jerry claims it is a form of hypnosis but if one is using

the techniques to bring oneself away from stress, anger, confusion or

depression into a sense of self than there is an important value in

that.

At this point in my own practice I use yoga to keep my body strong and

my stress levels under control and I will use mantra to

'self-hypnotize' myself away from focusing on how little I like the

circumstances of my current living situation. Years ago I was more

of a yoga purist and believed that it was only through the discipline

of a path that I could achieve the goal. Now I no longer believe that

and know that only staying steady in the true self will get me there

but I also believe that various techniques are necessary to keep the

body and mind operational while I move through some very sticky

karmic situations.

Each path is a bit unique and what the tools have fashioned will be

tested by life. Guess the challenge can be not to sacrifice the

creation in defense of the paintbrush.

Linda

>This is great Jerry! I love you man.>You pee all over TM and now give

your particulars and tell us you are>looking for a girl friend (who

does TM).>Actually I enjoyed what you wrote. Frankly, an honest

inquiry is what I >see>you doing here. There is no harm in

questioning the fundamental >assumptions>behind any method,

technique, or tradition. Jody and Bruce are pointing >to>that

questioning. If people are afraid of that, they need to be asking

>why?>Self-honesty is all we've got.Love to

allHarsha/join

All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to the

[Guest guest]

Hi folks,

 

Yes. I find that most folks do yoga etc. to get somehwere.

 

I often hear people say, 'I do yoga to relax'

I tell folks, 'You relax and yoga does you.'

 

Freedom is not something that happens after 30 years of yoga

practice, lifetimes of self-dicipline or some form of self-hypnosis.

 

Freedom is Free! And it is eternally available Now!

 

Freedom is the first step in yoga And it is the only step - it

is not a going/getting somewhere - it is about here-now. As the

journey unfolds from freedom to freedom to freedom we are already at

the destinaton by honouring the journey.

 

There is no way *to* Love.

Love is The Way.

 

Love,

James

 

 

 

 

, "da" <jyotish@w...> wrote:

> Hi,

>

> This topic is timely for me as I have often questioned techniques,

teachings and paths. In my own pursuit I have gone from doing up to 3

hours of yoga/mantra/meditation per day for years to doing nothing

except observing and everything in between.

>

> Often during consultations I will suggest a particular technique for

someone based on what is happening in one's chart. I do not know of

anyone who became enlightened through techniques though I have see

many spiral deeper into illusion and ego through doing too much yoga.

However, there is value to chants, asanas, meditations, etc.

Perhaps, as Jerry claims it is a form of hypnosis but if one is using

the techniques to bring oneself away from stress, anger, confusion or

depression into a sense of self than there is an important value in

that.

>

> At this point in my own practice I use yoga to keep my body strong

and my stress levels under control and I will use mantra to

'self-hypnotize' myself away from focusing on how little I like the

circumstances of my current living situation. Years ago I was more of

a yoga purist and believed that it was only through the discipline of

a path that I could achieve the goal. Now I no longer believe that

and know that only staying steady in the true self will get me there

but I also believe that various techniques are necessary to keep the

body and mind operational while I move through some very sticky karmic

situations.

>

> Each path is a bit unique and what the tools have fashioned will be

tested by life. Guess the challenge can be not to sacrifice the

creation in defense of the paintbrush.

>

> Linda

>

>

> >This is great Jerry! I love you man.

> >You pee all over TM and now give your particulars and tell us you

are

> >looking for a girl friend (who does TM).

> >Actually I enjoyed what you wrote. Frankly, an honest inquiry is

what I >see

> >you doing here. There is no harm in questioning the fundamental

>assumptions

> >behind any method, technique, or tradition. Jody and Bruce are

pointing >to

> >that questioning. If people are afraid of that, they need to be

asking >why?

> >Self-honesty is all we've got.

> Love to all

> Harsha

Sponsor

>

>

>

----

--

>

>

>

> /join

>

>

>

>

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist

in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are

not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of

the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

Self. Welcome all to a.

>

>

>

> Terms of

Service.

[Guest guest]

snip

> There is no way *to* Love.

> Love is The Way.

>

> Love,

> James

>

 

Well-said, James.

 

There is nothing else to know or do.

 

Love already is the Way.

 

There is nothing apart from the Way.

 

Although appearances may deceive,

there is no deception in this Way,

which alone is.

 

Love,

Dan