Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Just a thought, but don't all multicellular creatures come from an egg, and who is to say when nurturing begins? Now, I see no compassion in an alligator, but I do see instinctual protection (and very tender that can be), for its young. Yet what I see or fail to see in animals may be as much my lack of compassion as theirs. Indeed more so. love eric. Compassion is "default" for many mammal species (probably depending on length of mothering). Species that come from eggs probably won't display what we interpret as "compassion." Tim , "Ed" <eea@a...> wrote: > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22animals+have+compassion% 22&btnG=Google+Search ------------------------ Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial Click Here! ---~-> /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Good points Tim, no, alligators are not my concern here, nor monkey's. Yet I think compasion, like love a much misused word. <Compassion can only be "recognized" as certain behaviors -- nothing more. There is no "inner compassion" just "sitting there" as a quality -- either expressed as behavior "now" or nothing is there.>>>>>>>> I wonder. Is it not a process of non-identification from suffering? Identification being a substitute attachment that might be defined as empathy. And where there is empathy is there not fear? Compassion has the same quality as unconditional love. And has a distance to it. love eric. , ErcAshfrd@a... wrote: > I think there is a danger of confusing compassion with empathy, or > even fear. No danger 'here', but if you sense danger then run ;-). Perhaps the danger is to a concept held as "precious" (that there's something more to compassion, some "mystical, spiritual thing" rather than simple upbringing). > Just a thought, but don't all multicellular creatures come from an > egg, and who is to say when nurturing begins? Generally it could be said "at birth," could it not? The nearest example is in cats mothering a litter of kittens. Immediately upon birth the kitten is given a good tongue bath and allowed a teat. > Now, I see no compassion in an alligator, but I do see > instinctual protection (and very tender that can be), for its > young. Have you studied alligators? Just curious, since i would have some questions :-). > Yet what I see or fail to see in animals may be as much my lack of > compassion as theirs. Indeed more so. Compassion can only be "recognized" as certain behaviors -- nothing more. There is no "inner compassion" just "sitting there" as a quality -- either expressed as behavior "now" or nothing is there. Namaste, Tim ------------------------ Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial Click Here! ---~-> /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Hi Eric, , ErcAshfrd@a... wrote: > I wonder. Is it not a process of non-identification from suffering? How about defining "suffering" first? >>>>>>>>>> Well, we could do, but then we would be defining the egg! Shall we say suffering is attachment. That's the standard answer. It could be said that all identification is suffering -- so "non-identification from suffering?">>>>>>>> Is this a definition of compassion alone. No I think not. > Identification being a substitute attachment that might be defined > as empathy. And where there is empathy is there not fear? Is empathy an issue for the body-mind "eric?">>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I think that is so, and that is why there is fear attached. Compassion being a recognition of an others suffering, yet on a deeper level, not being a part of it. > Compassion has the same quality as unconditional love. True... >And has a distance to it. Not quite understanding the above... if you would like to explain further? (it's up to you). The distance being, non-identification with the suffering. For instance, if your pet alligator up and died, I could shed tears with you (no not crocodile tears, real ones). Yet knowing that there was no Real change in the alligator reality, nor yours, I would not identify with loss on a deeper level. In my humanity I would commiserate, but in my divinity, I would feel the distance knowing there was no Real loss. This only works if there is unconditional love, and that is not a thing to be learned but understood. Conditions are attachments after all. What do you think? Don't expect a reply until later though. There is some football I should like to watch. An interesting subject though. love eric. Love, Tim ------------------------ Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial Click Here! ---~-> /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Compassion is "default" for many mammal species (probably depending on length of mothering). Species that come from eggs probably won't display what we interpret as "compassion." Tim , "Ed" <eea@a...> wrote: > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22animals+have+compassion% 22&btnG=Google+Search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 , ErcAshfrd@a... wrote: > I think there is a danger of confusing compassion with empathy, or > even fear. No danger 'here', but if you sense danger then run ;-). Perhaps the danger is to a concept held as "precious" (that there's something more to compassion, some "mystical, spiritual thing" rather than simple upbringing). > Just a thought, but don't all multicellular creatures come from an > egg, and who is to say when nurturing begins? Generally it could be said "at birth," could it not? The nearest example is in cats mothering a litter of kittens. Immediately upon birth the kitten is given a good tongue bath and allowed a teat. > Now, I see no compassion in an alligator, but I do see > instinctual protection (and very tender that can be), for its > young. Have you studied alligators? Just curious, since i would have some questions :-). > Yet what I see or fail to see in animals may be as much my lack of > compassion as theirs. Indeed more so. Compassion can only be "recognized" as certain behaviors -- nothing more. There is no "inner compassion" just "sitting there" as a quality -- either expressed as behavior "now" or nothing is there. Namaste, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Hi Eric, , ErcAshfrd@a... wrote: > I wonder. Is it not a process of non-identification from suffering? How about defining "suffering" first? It could be said that all identification is suffering -- so "non-identification from suffering?" > Identification being a substitute attachment that might be defined > as empathy. And where there is empathy is there not fear? Is empathy an issue for the body-mind "eric?" > Compassion has the same quality as unconditional love. True... >And has a distance to it. Not quite understanding the above... if you would like to explain further? (it's up to you). Love, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Hi Eric, , ErcAshfrd@a... wrote: > The distance being, non-identification with the suffering. Identification with the suffering of others means you're suffering too. If not identified, then that's one less sufferer, right? > For instance, if your pet alligator up and died, I could shed tears > with you (no not crocodile tears, real ones). Yet knowing that > there was no Real change in the alligator reality, nor yours, I > would not identify with loss on a deeper level. In my > humanity I would commiserate, but in my divinity, I would feel the > distance knowing there was no Real loss. This only works if there > is unconditional love, and that is not a thing to be learned but > understood. Conditions are attachments after all. What do you > think? I think you're making a lot of sense. Love, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 I agree with you, Tim! At 06:21 PM 2/6/02 +0000, fewtch wrote: >Hi Eric, > >, ErcAshfrd@a... wrote: >> The distance being, non-identification with the suffering. > >Identification with the suffering of others means you're suffering >too. If not identified, then that's one less sufferer, right? > >> For instance, if your pet alligator up and died, I could shed tears >> with you (no not crocodile tears, real ones). Yet knowing that >> there was no Real change in the alligator reality, nor yours, I >> would not identify with loss on a deeper level. In my >> humanity I would commiserate, but in my divinity, I would feel the >> distance knowing there was no Real loss. This only works if there >> is unconditional love, and that is not a thing to be learned but >> understood. Conditions are attachments after all. What do you >> think? > >I think you're making a lot of sense. > >Love, > >Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 , ErcAshfrd@a... wrote: > The distance being, non-identification with the suffering. For instance, if > your pet alligator up and died, I could shed tears with you (no not crocodile > tears, real ones). Yet knowing that there was no Real change in the alligator > reality, nor yours, I would not identify with loss on a deeper level. In my > humanity I would commiserate, but in my divinity, I would feel the distance > knowing there was no Real loss. This only works if there is unconditional > love, and that is not a thing to be learned but understood. Conditions are > attachments after all. What do you think? There would be unconditional love, not the intellectual understanding of it, but the being of it, if animals are not separated mentally from the ground state of being ? If separation from the ground state of being includes viewing others apart from oneself, I wonder if animals, at least the invertebrate and non mammalian vertebrates, have minds that separate themselves from other animals and the environment or not. I believe they don't, based on the observation that most animals don't know how to count and don't seem to have even a rudimentary knowledge of numbers and masses (1 cub in the nest is less than 5 cubs say). I take that to mean these animals don't have a sensation of separation (me vs them) from the objects in the environment. So even if an animal does kill and there is a surge of adrenaline and directed aggression in the mindbody, the animal has no separation from that which it kills and hence never lacking in compassion. Or ? Love, Amanda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 , "mumblecat2000" <mumblecat@a...> wrote: > If separation from the ground state of being includes viewing others > apart from oneself, I wonder if animals, at least the invertebrate > and non mammalian vertebrates, have minds that separate themselves > from other animals and the environment or not. > > I believe they don't, We do. When us animals defend something we are quite aware of 'another' (or other force) > even if an animal does kill and there is a surge of adrenaline and > directed aggression in the mindbody, the animal has no separation > from that which it kills and hence never lacking in compassion. Or ? Adrenaline (fight or flight) is the bio-chemistry of fear (separation) and is completely dependent on the sense of some 'other'. (or other force) David (different animal) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 , "david bozzi" <david.bozzi@n...> wrote: > Adrenaline (fight or flight) > is the bio-chemistry of fear (separation) > and is completely dependent > on the sense of some 'other'. > (or other force) A brain biologist would argue that the brain stem controls release of fight-flight chemicals (and it would be backed up with research). In humans (with the huge "thinking brain") it appears conceptual thoughts can 'trigger' fear reactions (or anger reactions, almost the same thing)... fear/anger are no longer a survival requirements in "civilized" society, in fact just the opposite. The smaller the "thinking" brain in a species, the less likely is conceptual thought to be able to 'trigger' fear & anger -- makes sense anyway. BTW, fear doesn't depend on any sense of "other" or even on a sense of "I." Only this -- that such a sense can trigger fear "inappropriately" and may do so regularly. Cheers, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 , "fewtch" <coresite@a...> wrote: > A brain biologist would argue that the brain stem controls release > of fight-flight chemicals (and it would be backed up with > research). Which is triggered by the perception of something else (threatening or exciting). Not every scientist is a materialist... > In humans (with the huge "thinking brain") it appears conceptual > thoughts can 'trigger' fear reactions (or anger reactions, almost > the same thing)... If my cat shits on the carpet and meets my evil eyes he recoils in fear... We animals think, ponder, wonder and fear. > fear/anger are no longer a survival requirements > in "civilized" society, in fact just the opposite. Tell a murderer or a rapist in a dark alley that... Tell it to a terrorist on an airplane... Tell a grizzly bear in the woods... > The smaller the "thinking" brain in a species, the less likely is > conceptual thought to be able to 'trigger' fear & anger -- makes > sense anyway. Fear and anger are not dependent on the specific way a human happens to perceive. (i.e. lots of thinking) > BTW, fear doesn't depend on any sense of "other" or even on a sense > of "I." Only an 'intellect' would assert such a falsehood. David (threat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 , "david bozzi" <david.bozzi@n...> wrote: > > BTW, fear doesn't depend on any sense of "other" or even on a > > sense > > of "I." > > Only an 'intellect' would assert such a falsehood. So would one with 'panic disorder', where the fight-flight response fires off randomly without cause. Only an 'intellect' would assert that there are universal or 'absolute' falsehoods :-) > David > (threat) Tim (love) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 , "fewtch" <coresite@a...> wrote: > , "david bozzi" <david.bozzi@n...> wrote: > > > BTW, fear doesn't depend on any sense of "other" or even on a > > > sense > > > of "I." > > > > Only an 'intellect' would assert such a falsehood. > > So would one with 'panic disorder', where the fight-flight response > fires off randomly without cause. Only an 'intellect' would assert > that there are universal or 'absolute' falsehoods :-) So would one, searching for security or permanency in beliefs, "spiritual" or otherwise. Can't fault that, it's a nearly universal affliction. Love, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 , "fewtch" <coresite@a...> wrote: > So would one, searching for security or permanency in > beliefs, "spiritual" or otherwise. Can't fault that, it's a nearly > universal affliction. Happy you acknowledge that. Marking Territory, Us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 , "david bozzi" <david.bozzi@n...> wrote: > , "fewtch" <coresite@a...> wrote: > > > So would one, searching for security or permanency in > > beliefs, "spiritual" or otherwise. Can't fault that, it's a nearly > > universal affliction. > > Happy you acknowledge that. I always acknowledge emotions, within context. When they come and go quickly, it shows no clinging. When "coddled," they become afflictions and issues, beliefs, grudges, miseries. The human race is saddled with this sort of thing, and it's impossible not to 'have' a sense of compassion for it. > Marking Territory, > Us Cleaned up the urine and went home, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 OK, you drew me out of my deep cave of inner reflection with this topic. There is an excellent book, recently published that details real examples of many animal species behaving both generously and bravely...showing both caring and compassion. One example was of a mare that entered a raging flood to rescue her foal (but wait, there's more!), discovered that a local rancher had fallen into the river and was drowning, and stopped to push him safely to shore BEFORE rescuing her own foal. Thankfully, all survived. I have raised cats who have become orphaned, and found that even MALE cats will protect other kittens, hunt for them, groom them and care for them. Furthermore, they will do so, even when the kittens are MALE and likely to grow up to be competition. We have chickens in our back yard (we are on a 10 acre ranch) and when a cat threatened younger chickens that had slipped out of their fenced area, one of the jays flew down and distracted the cat long enough for me to get the chickens back into the coop. That was both unselfish and brave. I can think of nothing else that would seem to prove "compassion" than simply observation of behavior. We get confused when dealing with humans because they are so verbal. They can claim to be compassionate all the time, but I think we always must observe behavior. That being the case, we need to cease asking the question about animals ("Is is really compassionate behavior? We don't know their real motives...we cannot interrogate them. Maybe it is just a confusion on their part. Maybe it is some instinct. Maybe it was fear reflex.") Balloney. Judge each by the observed behavior. Generosity and compassion are not unique to humans. In fact, common sense would indicate that humans could NOT have compassion or regard for others if our animal relatives had not developed it to some degree first. Namaste & Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 Thanks zenbob, your a dude. Love you. eric. Dear Folks: OK, you drew me out of my deep cave of inner reflection with this topic. There is an excellent book, recently published that details real examples of many animal species behaving both generously and bravely...showing both caring and compassion. One example was of a mare that entered a raging flood to rescue her foal (but wait, there's more!), discovered that a local rancher had fallen into the river and was drowning, and stopped to push him safely to shore BEFORE rescuing her own foal. Thankfully, all survived. I have raised cats who have become orphaned, and found that even MALE cats will protect other kittens, hunt for them, groom them and care for them. Furthermore, they will do so, even when the kittens are MALE and likely to grow up to be competition. We have chickens in our back yard (we are on a 10 acre ranch) and when a cat threatened younger chickens that had slipped out of their fenced area, one of the jays flew down and distracted the cat long enough for me to get the chickens back into the coop. That was both unselfish and brave. I can think of nothing else that would seem to prove "compassion" than simply observation of behavior. We get confused when dealing with humans because they are so verbal. They can claim to be compassionate all the time, but I think we always must observe behavior. That being the case, we need to cease asking the question about animals ("Is is really compassionate behavior? We don't know their real motives...we cannot interrogate them. Maybe it is just a confusion on their part. Maybe it is some instinct. Maybe it was fear reflex.") Balloney. Judge each by the observed behavior. Generosity and compassion are not unique to humans. In fact, common sense would indicate that humans could NOT have compassion or regard for others if our animal relatives had not developed it to some degree first. Namaste & Love, Zenbob /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 Zenbob is great! I miss him! At 02:00 PM 2/8/02 -0500, ErcAshfrd wrote: >Thanks zenbob, your a dude. Love you. eric. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2002 Report Share Posted February 13, 2002 Thanks for the kind words...and Greg...well...I love you, too...but let's keep all that praise and adoration stuff low-key, shall we? :-) Blessings! Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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