Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Dear Vicki, it is wonderful that you are attracted to Sri Ramana's perfect simplicity and equanimity (and probably much more than that). I have to admit, though, that I feel a little bit sad about the implication that beings like Buddha, Jesus, Swami Shankara, P. Yogananda, and others who organized or gave instruction to disciples or preached to the multitudes, are not Masters according to your quote. Do you think Masters have to fit into any such molds? I know it is not true. The great advaitist, Swami Shankara, is often referred to in religious literature as the "great organizer". He worked his feet off to revitalize the ancient swami order all over India, teaching and engaging in public disputations, founding the four maths, and laying the organizational basis for a gigantic religious organization from which all swamis derive their legitimacy to this day. According to Mouni Sadhu's quote he could not have been a Master. And yet he was a great Master, revered even by Sri Ramana himself, as you well know. The search for the Divine is ultimately between the soul and God only, and that may be why most of us do not like any organization to interfere. I can understand this very well, because I feel the same way. But if we look around, we see that most teachings have some kind of organization around them, which has been either initiated or at least tolerated by the person that inspired it. This also includes Sri Ramanasramam in Tiruvannamalai; they have now expanded even into the US and Canada. They are also selling books and videos, aren't they, and have a website and get donations etc. And why not? I believe it is good and proper that there be some kind of organization. Otherwise, how would people learn about Sri Ramana? "Organization is the hive, God is the honey." Kindest regards, Michael -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: viorica weissman [viorica] Gesendet: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 22:43 An: Betreff: Re: Mouni Sadhu - Let us not be misguided. Dear Michael, Indeed I owe you the pleasure of having read this book ; at your recommendation I began searching for it and fortunately a friend of mine had it and I read it some months ago. Why I posted this particular paragraph ? You see, when one is attracted by a Master of such a perfect simplicity,equanimity as Ramana Maharshi , it is very hard if not impossible to accept the form of organized teaching whoever might be the leading master. I am sorry to dissapoint you with this , but if you really wish to express your opinion on this theme on those other two lists , you could do so ; At your request I could however forward your reply but I wouldn't be able to answer instead of you if other members would have to say anything to you and would like to hear your answers; so please excuse me for this; Besides, unfortunately, at the level of many great organizations spiritual misguiding is a fact. It is only natural that one who loves Ramana and found one's guru in him to doubt such things. As about others - just playing their worldly roles as kings or beggers or whatever. vicki > Dear Vicki, > > I very much appreciate Mouni Sadhu's book - remember I had recommended it to > you a long time ago on this list, when you did not know it yet. I think it's > a wonderful book of great depth, one of my favorites for more than thirty > years, and I am very glad to know that it has been reprinted in a small > edition recently. > > However, in saying that there has never been a Master who has run an > organization, Mouni Sadhu is sadly misguided himself. I will not speak of my > own Guru, Paramahansa Yogananda. But let us remember that King Janaka, one > of the illumined rishis, ran a whole country; that Sri Krishna, though a > great avatar, performed the duties of a noble ruler and also as the > commander-in-chief in the dreadful battle of Kurukshetra; and that the whole > swami order was completely reorganized in all of India by Swami Shankara. > > I love the wonderful quotes that you are posting here and elsewhere, but > part of this quote is completely amiss. > > Kindest regards, > > Michael > > PS. I would be thankful if you could consider posting my reply on the other > two lists, too. > Thank you very much. > > > > > > You ask : 'What about the numerous initiatory societies existing > in the modern world ?' > > Let us not be misguided. If you want to give me a glass of water, > you must have water to give. Unless leaders of such organizations > are true Masters - perfect men - their teachings and books can be > little better than the mental speculation of a layman. > > The teaching must be supported by the lives of the techers and give > us an unmistakable example of true realizarion. Your own Self will never > accept anything less . And until now I have never seen a Master > running an organization or a business. Think it over and the answer > will come of itself. > > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu > > > /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold">Dear Vicki, Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold"> Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold">I respect the general intent and spirit of Mouni Sadhu’s comments, as those comments are based on his experience and observations. Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold"> Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold">It should be noted, however, that Sri Ramana never made such statements himself or condoned such sentiments as expressed by Mouni Sadhu. Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold"> Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold">Love to all Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold">Harsha -----Original Message----- viorica weissman [viorica (AT) zahav (DOT) net.il] Tuesday, March 26, 2002 2:32 PM NamoRamana; ; NDS Mouni Sadhu - Let us not be misguided. You ask : color:navy">'What about the numerous initiatory societies existing color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> in the modern world ?' color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> Let us not be misguided. If you want to give me a glass of water, mso-color-alt:windowtext"> you must have water to give. Unless leaders of such organizations color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> are true Masters - perfect men - their teachings and books can be color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> little better than the mental speculation of a layman. mso-color-alt:windowtext"> color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> The teaching must be supported by the lives of the techers and give color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> us an unmistakable example of true realizarion. Your own Self will never color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> accept anything less . And until now I have never seen a Master color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> running an organization or a business. Think it over and the answer color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> will come of itself. color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext"> color:black">/join "Courier New";mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";color:black"> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. mso-color-alt:windowtext"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Dearest Michael, Thanks for this post dear heart. I feel the same as you do in this message. God is the honey, I recall our Gurudeva saying this after the Hollywood temple was completed and they were holding the opening ceremony. Brother Anandamoy said that Master referred to him and the other monks who had done all the work as his "little boys,just think," he said to the congregation, "that my little boys built this." And Brother Anadamoy said, "Til my dying day, I shall always be one of Master's little boys." Thanks again for this sweet Michael. Love, Mazie Dear Vicki, > >it is wonderful that you are attracted to Sri Ramana's perfect simplicity >and equanimity (and probably much more than that). I have to admit, though, >that I feel a little bit sad about the implication that beings like Buddha, >Jesus, Swami Shankara, P. Yogananda, and others who organized or gave >instruction to disciples or preached to the multitudes, are not Masters >according to your quote. Do you think Masters have to fit into any such >molds? I know it is not true. > >The great advaitist, Swami Shankara, is often referred to in religious >literature as the "great organizer". He worked his feet off to revitalize >the ancient swami order all over India, teaching and engaging in public >disputations, founding the four maths, and laying the organizational basis >for a gigantic religious organization from which all swamis derive their >legitimacy to this day. According to Mouni Sadhu's quote he could not have >been a Master. And yet he was a great Master, revered even by Sri Ramana >himself, as you well know. > >The search for the Divine is ultimately between the soul and God only, and >that may be why most of us do not like any organization to interfere. I can >understand this very well, because I feel the same way. But if we look >around, we see that most teachings have some kind of organization around >them, which has been either initiated or at least tolerated by the person >that inspired it. This also includes Sri Ramanasramam in Tiruvannamalai; >they have now expanded even into the US and Canada. They are also selling >books and videos, aren't they, and have a website and get donations etc. >And >why not? I believe it is good and proper that there be some kind of >organization. Otherwise, how would people learn about Sri Ramana? > >"Organization is the hive, God is the honey." > >Kindest regards, > >Michael > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >Von: viorica weissman [viorica] >Gesendet: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 22:43 >An: >Betreff: Re: Mouni Sadhu - Let us not be misguided. > > >Dear Michael, > >Indeed I owe you the pleasure of having read this book ; >at your recommendation I began searching for it and fortunately >a friend of mine had it and I read it some months ago. > >Why I posted this particular paragraph ? >You see, when one is attracted by a Master of such a >perfect simplicity,equanimity as Ramana Maharshi , >it is very hard if not impossible to accept the form of organized >teaching whoever might be the leading master. > >I am sorry to dissapoint you with this , but if you really >wish to express your opinion on this theme on those other two lists , >you could do so ; At your request I could however forward your >reply but I wouldn't be able to answer instead of you >if other members would have to say anything to you and >would like to hear your answers; so please excuse me for this; > >Besides, unfortunately, at the level of many great organizations >spiritual misguiding is a fact. >It is only natural that one who loves Ramana and found one's >guru in him to doubt such things. > >As about others - just playing their worldly roles as kings >or beggers or whatever. >vicki > > > Dear Vicki, > > > > I very much appreciate Mouni Sadhu's book - remember I had recommended >it >to > > you a long time ago on this list, when you did not know it yet. I think >it's > > a wonderful book of great depth, one of my favorites for more than >thirty > > years, and I am very glad to know that it has been reprinted in a small > > edition recently. > > > > However, in saying that there has never been a Master who has run an > > organization, Mouni Sadhu is sadly misguided himself. I will not speak >of >my > > own Guru, Paramahansa Yogananda. But let us remember that King Janaka, >one > > of the illumined rishis, ran a whole country; that Sri Krishna, though a > > great avatar, performed the duties of a noble ruler and also as the > > commander-in-chief in the dreadful battle of Kurukshetra; and that the >whole > > swami order was completely reorganized in all of India by Swami >Shankara. > > > > I love the wonderful quotes that you are posting here and elsewhere, but > > part of this quote is completely amiss. > > > > Kindest regards, > > > > Michael > > > > PS. I would be thankful if you could consider posting my reply on the >other > > two lists, too. > > Thank you very much. > > > > > > > > > > > You ask : 'What about the numerous initiatory societies existing > > in the modern world ?' > > > > Let us not be misguided. If you want to give me a glass of water, > > you must have water to give. Unless leaders of such organizations > > are true Masters - perfect men - their teachings and books can be > > little better than the mental speculation of a layman. > > > > The teaching must be supported by the lives of the techers and give > > us an unmistakable example of true realizarion. Your own Self will >never > > accept anything less . And until now I have never seen a Master > > running an organization or a business. Think it over and the answer > > will come of itself. > > > > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > >/join > > > > > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of >Awareness. >Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is >where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal >Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, >spontaneously >arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > > > > >/join > > > > > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of >Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is >Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality >of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, >spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to >a. > > > >Your use of is subject to > > _______________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Thank you Michael. Your comments are based on both historical facts and common sense. Sri Ramana flatly, consistently, and bluntly contradicted the notion that Self-Realization was related to one's station in life. If I recall correctly, one time a devotee of Sri Ramana made a disparaging remark about the guru of a visitor to the ashram (implying that the visitor's guru was not realized). Sri Ramana's comment was quick and stern and he asked his devotee how he knew that the other Guru was not Realized. Love to all Harsha MikeSuesserott [MikeSuesserott] Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:23 AM Mouni Sadhu - Let us not be misguided. Dear Vicki, it is wonderful that you are attracted to Sri Ramana's perfect simplicity and equanimity (and probably much more than that). I have to admit, though, that I feel a little bit sad about the implication that beings like Buddha, Jesus, Swami Shankara, P. Yogananda, and others who organized or gave instruction to disciples or preached to the multitudes, are not Masters according to your quote. Do you think Masters have to fit into any such molds? I know it is not true. The great advaitist, Swami Shankara, is often referred to in religious literature as the "great organizer". He worked his feet off to revitalize the ancient swami order all over India, teaching and engaging in public disputations, founding the four maths, and laying the organizational basis for a gigantic religious organization from which all swamis derive their legitimacy to this day. According to Mouni Sadhu's quote he could not have been a Master. And yet he was a great Master, revered even by Sri Ramana himself, as you well know. The search for the Divine is ultimately between the soul and God only, and that may be why most of us do not like any organization to interfere. I can understand this very well, because I feel the same way. But if we look around, we see that most teachings have some kind of organization around them, which has been either initiated or at least tolerated by the person that inspired it. This also includes Sri Ramanasramam in Tiruvannamalai; they have now expanded even into the US and Canada. They are also selling books and videos, aren't they, and have a website and get donations etc. And why not? I believe it is good and proper that there be some kind of organization. Otherwise, how would people learn about Sri Ramana? "Organization is the hive, God is the honey." Kindest regards, Michael -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: viorica weissman [viorica] Gesendet: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 22:43 An: Betreff: Re: Mouni Sadhu - Let us not be misguided. Dear Michael, Indeed I owe you the pleasure of having read this book ; at your recommendation I began searching for it and fortunately a friend of mine had it and I read it some months ago. Why I posted this particular paragraph ? You see, when one is attracted by a Master of such a perfect simplicity,equanimity as Ramana Maharshi , it is very hard if not impossible to accept the form of organized teaching whoever might be the leading master. I am sorry to dissapoint you with this , but if you really wish to express your opinion on this theme on those other two lists , you could do so ; At your request I could however forward your reply but I wouldn't be able to answer instead of you if other members would have to say anything to you and would like to hear your answers; so please excuse me for this; Besides, unfortunately, at the level of many great organizations spiritual misguiding is a fact. It is only natural that one who loves Ramana and found one's guru in him to doubt such things. As about others - just playing their worldly roles as kings or beggers or whatever. vicki > Dear Vicki, > > I very much appreciate Mouni Sadhu's book - remember I had recommended it to > you a long time ago on this list, when you did not know it yet. I think it's > a wonderful book of great depth, one of my favorites for more than thirty > years, and I am very glad to know that it has been reprinted in a small > edition recently. > > However, in saying that there has never been a Master who has run an > organization, Mouni Sadhu is sadly misguided himself. I will not speak of my > own Guru, Paramahansa Yogananda. But let us remember that King Janaka, one > of the illumined rishis, ran a whole country; that Sri Krishna, though a > great avatar, performed the duties of a noble ruler and also as the > commander-in-chief in the dreadful battle of Kurukshetra; and that the whole > swami order was completely reorganized in all of India by Swami Shankara. > > I love the wonderful quotes that you are posting here and elsewhere, but > part of this quote is completely amiss. > > Kindest regards, > > Michael > > PS. I would be thankful if you could consider posting my reply on the other > two lists, too. > Thank you very much. > > > > > > You ask : 'What about the numerous initiatory societies existing > in the modern world ?' > > Let us not be misguided. If you want to give me a glass of water, > you must have water to give. Unless leaders of such organizations > are true Masters - perfect men - their teachings and books can be > little better than the mental speculation of a layman. > > The teaching must be supported by the lives of the techers and give > us an unmistakable example of true realizarion. Your own Self will never > accept anything less . And until now I have never seen a Master > running an organization or a business. Think it over and the answer > will come of itself. > > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu > > > /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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