Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Dear Vicki, I am well aware of the contents of Mouni Sadhu's book which I love and have read many times. It's just that out of the many excellent pages of that book unfortunately you selected a passage where the author makes a mistake: "Unless leaders of such organizations are true Masters - perfect men - their teachings and books can be little better than the mental speculation of a layman... And until now I have never seen a Master running an organization or a business." Mouni Sadhu gives incorrect guidance here. A Master is not obliged by spiritual law to keep away from organizational work; being unconcerned about it is no yardstick for perfection. On the contrary, some Masters seem to come on Earth with the express purpose of building a spiritual organization, as did Jesus, and Swami Shankara, and Paramahansa Yogananda. To a degree this might also be said of the Buddha. Kindest regards, Michael -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: viorica weissman [viorica] Gesendet: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 18:37 An: Betreff: Re : Mouni Sadhu - Let us not be misguided Dear Michael , I read that selection from Mouni Sadhu's book again and again trying to understand where any single implication against Budha, Jesus, Shankara ...might be and I must admit I am baffled. There is none. As I understood you read the book , so you know he quotes freely Christian mystics,Jesus,Kabbalah ...Not to mention that the book has an apendix which is a very good selection of verses from Viveka Chudamani. Never ever did Mouni Sadhu write in this book anything that could imply what you implied. On the contrary. That selected quote was an answer to somebody who asked him a simple question and Mouni Sadhu answered his opinion. It might be seen as a warning to help a spiritual seeker , who perhaps didn't know whom to trust and whom to trust not. Discriminating is part of the way. Your implications have nothing to do with Mouni Sadhu , nor with me. Very kind regards , vicki. Dear Vicki, it is wonderful that you are attracted to Sri Ramana's perfect simplicity and equanimity (and probably much more than that). I have to admit, though, that I feel a little bit sad about the implication that beings like Buddha, Jesus, Swami Shankara, P. Yogananda, and others who organized or gave instruction to disciples or preached to the multitudes, are not Masters according to your quote. Do you think Masters have to fit into any such molds? I know it is not true. The great advaitist, Swami Shankara, is often referred to in religious literature as the "great organizer". He worked his feet off to revitalize the ancient swami order all over India, teaching and engaging in public disputations, founding the four maths, and laying the organizational basis for a gigantic religious organization from which all swamis derive their legitimacy to this day. According to Mouni Sadhu's quote he could not have been a Master. And yet he was a great Master, revered even by Sri Ramana himself, as you well know. The search for the Divine is ultimately between the soul and God only, and that may be why most of us do not like any organization to interfere. I can understand this very well, because I feel the same way. But if we look around, we see that most teachings have some kind of organization around them, which has been either initiated or at least tolerated by the person that inspired it. This also includes Sri Ramanasramam in Tiruvannamalai; they have now expanded even into the US and Canada. They are also selling books and videos, aren't they, and have a website and get donations etc. And why not? I believe it is good and proper that there be some kind of organization. Otherwise, how would people learn about Sri Ramana? "Organization is the hive, God is the honey." Kindest regards, Michael -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: viorica weissman [viorica] Gesendet: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 22:43 An: Betreff: Re: Mouni Sadhu - Let us not be misguided. Dear Michael, Indeed I owe you the pleasure of having read this book ; at your recommendation I began searching for it and fortunately a friend of mine had it and I read it some months ago. Why I posted this particular paragraph ? You see, when one is attracted by a Master of such a perfect simplicity,equanimity as Ramana Maharshi , it is very hard if not impossible to accept the form of organized teaching whoever might be the leading master. I am sorry to dissapoint you with this , but if you really wish to express your opinion on this theme on those other two lists , you could do so ; At your request I could however forward your reply but I wouldn't be able to answer instead of you if other members would have to say anything to you and would like to hear your answers; so please excuse me for this; Besides, unfortunately, at the level of many great organizations spiritual misguiding is a fact. It is only natural that one who loves Ramana and found one's guru in him to doubt such things. As about others - just playing their worldly roles as kings or beggers or whatever. vicki > Dear Vicki, > > I very much appreciate Mouni Sadhu's book - remember I had recommended it to > you a long time ago on this list, when you did not know it yet. I think it's > a wonderful book of great depth, one of my favorites for more than thirty > years, and I am very glad to know that it has been reprinted in a small > edition recently. > > However, in saying that there has never been a Master who has run an > organization, Mouni Sadhu is sadly misguided himself. I will not speak of my > own Guru, Paramahansa Yogananda. But let us remember that King Janaka, one > of the illumined rishis, ran a whole country; that Sri Krishna, though a > great avatar, performed the duties of a noble ruler and also as the > commander-in-chief in the dreadful battle of Kurukshetra; and that the whole > swami order was completely reorganized in all of India by Swami Shankara. > > I love the wonderful quotes that you are posting here and elsewhere, but > part of this quote is completely amiss. > > Kindest regards, > > Michael > > PS. I would be thankful if you could consider posting my reply on the other > two lists, too. > Thank you very much. > > > > > > You ask : 'What about the numerous initiatory societies existing > in the modern world ?' > > Let us not be misguided. If you want to give me a glass of water, > you must have water to give. Unless leaders of such organizations > are true Masters - perfect men - their teachings and books can be > little better than the mental speculation of a layman. > > The teaching must be supported by the lives of the techers and give > us an unmistakable example of true realizarion. Your own Self will never > accept anything less . And until now I have never seen a Master > running an organization or a business. Think it over and the answer > will come of itself. > > In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 MikeSuesserott wrote: > Dear Vicki, > > I am well aware of the contents of Mouni Sadhu's book which I love and have > read many times. It's just that out of the many excellent pages of that book > unfortunately you selected a passage where the author makes a mistake: > > "Unless leaders of such organizations are true Masters - perfect men - their > teachings and books can be little better than the mental speculation of a > layman... And until now I have never seen a Master running an organization > or a business." > > Mouni Sadhu gives incorrect guidance here. A Master is not obliged by > spiritual law to keep away from organizational work; being unconcerned about > it is no yardstick for perfection. On the contrary, some Masters seem to > come on Earth with the express purpose of building a spiritual organization, > as did Jesus, and Swami Shankara, and Paramahansa Yogananda. To a degree > this might also be said of the Buddha. > > Kindest regards, > > Michael > I agree, leaders of organizations do not have to be "perfect" in order to foster concepts that are eminently superior to the mental speculations of a layman, and I find it highly unlikely that he had, at the time of his statement, never personally seen a Master running an organization or business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 It depends on what is in your mind when talking about organization and business. I think Mouni Sadhu has meant it in a negative sense having something special and negative experiences in mind, but he made the mistake generalizing it. A true master will not look for benefit to enrich himself - for that he will not run a bussiness. But there are masters which built up organizations as they feel there is a need. Also in Zen there is something as "organization" round the Roshi. In wich sense Jesus can be connected with the organization "church" is a question which still caused a lot of controversities in church history. Has he founded the church? Neither "yes" nor "no" is the right answer to this. Ramana can't be brought together with business and organization as such, but he was also interested in the construction of the different buildings even planing them. I think there is a wide field with all thinkable possibilities how a master can be connected with bussiness and organization which goes from no contact at all up to being a planning organizator and businessman. But the real master is the Self and as such has nothing to do with organisation as bussiness. Gabriele , "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote: > Dear Michael, > You associate Jesus with 'organization and business'? > You associate Buddha with 'organization and business'? > You associate Ramana Maharshi with 'organization and business'? > In Ramana Maharshi's case his devotees organized themselves around him. > and continued after his passing. > I could go on like this .... > > My consternation knows no limit. > > vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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