Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Hi Jody, You wrote: >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet suits over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage called the world. My role seems to be ... [snip]<<< What do you mean? "Mother Shakti" "Her little actors" "My role seems to be..." Please elaborate... Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Jody, you wrote: >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet suits over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage called the world. My role seems to be ... [snip]<<< What do you mean? "Mother Shakti" "Her little actors" "My role seems to be..." Please elaborate...I mean, Jody, please elaborate on how a "Mother Shakti" figures in all this and how she (?) plays these little puppets as "illusory individuals on the illusory world-plane." "Mother Shakti" ??? I don't get it... Wim mother shakti jodyrrr [jodyrrr] Friday, May 31, 2002 10:27 AM Re: Hi Jody , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Jody, > > You wrote: > >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet > suits over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage > called the world. My role seems to be ... [snip]<<< > > What do you mean? > "Mother Shakti" > "Her little actors" > "My role seems to be..." > > Please elaborate... > > Wim The illusory individual on the illusory world-plane. /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Hi Jody, You wrote: >>> Then I'm afraid I cannot help you. <<< What made you think that you were asked to help me? It is you wrote: >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet suits over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage called the world. My role seems to be ... [snip]<<< So, why not just simply elaborate on the term "Mother Shakti,Her little actors,My role seems to be..." That would be nice. Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Hi Jody, I hope we can have some kind of conversation... Here is your paragraph that I originally responded to: >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet suits over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage called the world. My role seems to be to tilt at the montrosity of expectations that have collected in the context of spiritual culture. <<< Indeed I did say, "I don't get it", that is why I asked for elaboration. After all you used the words 'Mother Shakti', a respected term that I know, but have never seen a need for to use yet in my life. You also used 'puppet suits' and 'little actors', words that I could not see to fit in the context of my understanding of 'Mother Shakti'. It is your description of Mother Shakti throwing puppet suits over little actors, however delightfully graphic a scene that may be, and humorous :-)... such an event...the why, how and when eludes me... so far... So, I was hoping that you would elaborate. Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Hi Jody, You wrote: >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet suits over us... <<< >>> ...just a cartoon rendering of Maya. <<< Self and Maya This reminds me of some medieval discussions about Satan and God which at times discussed the following: "Could Satan be more powerful than God if God is really God?" I found this intriguing 'Battleground God' website that covers similar conundrums as we are dealing with here: http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm Have fun with it... Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 > on 5/30/02 8:27 PM, jodyrrr at jodyrrr wrote: > > , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > > [snip] > >> Saniel is supposedly awakening people faster than you >> can say rutabegga > > I guess he learned a few of the same tricks his boss uses. > > ================================= I don't know what that means....care to elaborate? =========================== > Harshaji has brought together a living community of > spiritual brothers and sisters. Like siblings we may > have our spats, but in the end it's understood we stand > together as those who seek to know themselves as we > really are. > > So enjoy. > > --jody. ====================== Thanks Jody and Hi. How are you....or should I say ..WHO are you? Blessings, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 Hi Shawn, I like your freshness, Shawn, don't let anyone extinguish your fire, don't let anyone stop you from bringing up any topic on this list that you want to see in the light of truth. Over time we have seen a lot of themes on this list become anathema, it is so good to see new members like you... It feels like a reboot... You wrote: >>> ...there is growing documentation that the awakening force, if allowed to move freely in an individual, changes the bio-chemical makeup of the individual. <<< OK, I have observed it like this Shawn. Let me explain. Typically, when most of are born, it happens to be a shocking event. (You might know that Franklin Jones, alias Adi Da, talks about that as well, does he not also use the word 'recoil'.) This recoil at birth is not supposed to happen, but it does and it is quite a let-down for a new-born. Understandably it has tremendous repercussions for the rest of someone's life. (By the way, the bio-energy imaging apparatus that I use in my work with clients can register that moment as well as subsequent traumatic episodes. It helps tremendously, when one sees it graphed out and depicted. Early traumas affect certain organs very badly for the remainder of one's life. To see this depicted provides physical evidence, that the traumas of birth or early life, 'jucky' stuff that was suspected or which arose from the sub-conscious, that it indeed took place. Confirmation thus starts a process that gets the client back on their own original path, on their way to restore themselves physically, creatively, emotionally, mentally and spiritually to what they were to be if nothing disadvantageous had taken place.) Anyway during this shocking event of our birth, unexpected as it is, most of us humans lose much of that energy that you call 'the awakening force'. It diminishes. We then live on, on nothing more than a pilot flame, in an undernourished state. When a human starts his or her self-restoration process, and that could happen in many ways, and you have been mentioning some possibilities, that force gets rekindled, the life fire gets re-lit. You call it an 'awakening force', but it is actually a 're-awakening force'. Energetically then, we get restored on various subtle levels, but also on grosser physical levels. That helps us then to also get our organs to restore the functionality that they were supposed to have from the beginning of our life. (Do not expect miracles, it is a lot audacious work, and it often involves conventional as well as alternative healing modalities. It all depends.) We can call this whole process self re-clamation, self restoration, reintegration, rebirth, etc. It is actually the same process as Kundalini. (I have written about this at length, most on this list are familiar with my views on this.) This restoration process reboots, so to say, our innate creative energies. For some this can be sexual or erotic at first, it all depends on the original traumas, but it always culminates on the individual heart level in unconditional and universal love. And yes, physically it changes us as well, thus the proof you are talking about, that our bio-chemistry changes. The imbalances from birth and subsequent traumas get restored. So when humans at some point start to work at themselves, one way or another, (there is a whole array of approaches open to us) life force gets restored to its original vigour which changes our bio-chemical make-up. One can feel this energetically, one can see this physically. We can give this energy many names, prana, life force, the force of love, shakti, chi, ki or kundalini. I have done some daring and outrageous experiments with myself, which took me some thirteen years, to see if this self healing process could indeed be activated, not to test it but to know the dynamics of it, how and when it kicks in, all the ins and outs. I have written about this at length, much through this medium. We have all heard of elixir, ambrosia, nectar, amrita, food of the gods, soma... You know what, Shawn, that is actually a physical substance that gets restored. When the flow of that substance is back to what it was just before we were born we are ourselves again and... and it is irreversible... There is so much hope, we live in such good times... There is more to this of course. Ah, to live for this, to help each other to recover our original state! Do we matter? Oh yes, if only to remind each other that unconditional love is indeed the secret, but not to keep it a secret. Love, the very thing that was so unexpectedly withheld or made conditional in early life. Universal love, ah, to remember and recover the unconditional reality of it... to know it again and to re-cognize it in and with one-another. Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > > on 5/30/02 8:27 PM, jodyrrr at jodyrrr wrote: > > > > , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > >> Saniel is supposedly awakening people faster than you > >> can say rutabegga > > > > I guess he learned a few of the same tricks his boss uses. > > > > ================================= > > I don't know what that means....care to elaborate? Well, one person awakening another. How does that happen? There are various ideas about that. It's common to believe that the teacher has some kind of "power" due to their being Self realized. The expectation is that Self realization comes with magical abilities that allow one to magically awaken those around them. It's as if the teacher has a bubble of infinity around them, and when others come into the sphere, they somehow "catch" the infinity in themselves. I say hogwash. What's really happening, imo, is that the students are projecting their own inner power on to the teacher, and because they believe the power is in the teacher, they mediate their own awakening by agency of a placebo effect that is produced by their belief. It's more akin to hysteria than magic. That's not to say that the awakenings produced are any less real. They aren't. It's just that the credit goes to the teacher's power rather than the student's. The student is led to believe the teacher did it, and the "trick" the teacher uses is to encourage this belief. The fact is that we are all the Self, equally. No being is "more" the Self than another. Some may live in an experiential recognition of this and some may not, but that quality doesn't really make them any different than anybody else. As the teacher takes his/her satsang to different places, posters go up promising magical results. People come expecting those results. If the teacher is able to meet the students (incorrect) expectations about what a Self realized person is like, they open themselves to their own Self in the context of believing the teacher is doing it. Bunches of people get awakened and become students by this "trick." The teacher can naively believe he/she is doing it too. That is, sometimes the trick is being played on the teacher as well. The end result is some people get started on the path, but the unfortunate part of it is that they've now been led to believe they need the teacher, or that the teacher can do it for them. > =========================== > > > Harshaji has brought together a living community of > > spiritual brothers and sisters. Like siblings we may > > have our spats, but in the end it's understood we stand > > together as those who seek to know themselves as we > > really are. > > > > So enjoy. > > > > --jody. > ====================== > > Thanks Jody and Hi. How are you....or should I say ..WHO are you? > > Blessings, Shawn We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet suits over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage called the world. My role seems to be to tilt at the montrosity of expectations that have collected in the context of spiritual culture. So many people have come to believe so many things about Self-realization, yet Self-realization has never been anything other than Itself. It always defies these expectations, but due to the exceedingly subtle nature of the Self, it invariably gets covered up by them. That is, to believe something about the Self prevents the Self from being recognized as it is covered up by the belief. That's the problem with the transmission teacher phenomenon. People come to expect that their Self-realization will render them capable of the same miracles. Their Self-realization is with them at all times, but how will they see it if it isn't accompanied by magical powers? The responsible teacher does what they can to prevent these expectations from forming in their students. The best teachers are the ones who stand on the same floor as their students, making every effort to let them know we all brush our teeth the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Jody, > > You wrote: > >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet > suits over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage > called the world. My role seems to be ... [snip]<<< > > What do you mean? > "Mother Shakti" > "Her little actors" > "My role seems to be..." > > Please elaborate... > > Wim The illusory individual on the illusory world-plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Jody, you wrote: > >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet > suits over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage > called the world. My role seems to be ... [snip]<<< > > What do you mean? > "Mother Shakti" > "Her little actors" > "My role seems to be..." > > Please elaborate...I mean, Jody, please elaborate on how a "Mother Shakti" > figures in all this and how she (?) plays these little puppets as "illusory > individuals on the illusory world-plane." > "Mother Shakti" ??? I don't get it... > > Wim Then I'm afraid I cannot help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Jody, > > You wrote: > >>> Then I'm afraid I cannot help you. <<< > What made you think that you were asked to help me? You said: "I don't get it..." > It is you wrote: > >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet suits > over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage called the world. > My role seems to be ... [snip]<<< > > So, why not just simply elaborate on the term "Mother Shakti,Her little > actors,My role seems to be..." > That would be nice. > > Wim It would be nice for you. However, it holds little interest for me at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Jody, > > I hope we can have some kind of conversation... > > Here is your paragraph that I originally responded to: > >>> We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet suits > over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage called the world. > My role seems to be to tilt at the montrosity of expectations that have > collected in the context of spiritual > culture. <<< > > Indeed I did say, "I don't get it", that is why I asked for elaboration. > After all you used the words 'Mother Shakti', a respected term that I know, > but have never seen a need for to use yet in my life. You also used 'puppet > suits' and 'little actors', words that I could not see to fit in the context > of my understanding of 'Mother Shakti'. It is your description of Mother > Shakti throwing puppet suits over little actors, however delightfully > graphic a scene that may be, and humorous :-)... such an event...the why, > how and when eludes me... so far... So, I was hoping that you would > elaborate. > > Wim It was just a cartoon rendering of Maya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 on 5/31/02 6:29 AM, jodyrrr at jodyrrr wrote: snip Well, one person awakening another. How does that happen? There are various ideas about that. ============ First of all, Saniel would be the first one to say he didn't do it. But he was the instigator or he helped.... I admit to phrasing that badly, although i think that transmission, shaktipat , reiki, chi , the spirit is more active in some people and why should n't it be? We are not all endowed with the same physical strengths, are we? ======================= It's common to believe that the teacher has some kind of "power" due to their being Self realized. The expectation is that Self realization comes with magical abilities that allow one to magically awaken those around them. It's as if the teacher has a bubble of infinity around them, and when others come into the sphere, they somehow "catch" the infinity in themselves. I say hogwash. What's really happening, imo, is that the students are projecting their own inner power on to the teacher, and because they believe the power is in the teacher, they mediate their own awakening by agency of a placebo effect that is produced by their belief. It's more akin to hysteria than magic. ===================== Shaktipat is well documented and I believe a genuine although yet unprovable phenomenon. Generally it used to facilitate a temporary initiatory opening in the energy field of a human. ========================= snip Some may live in an experiential recognition of this and some may not, but that quality doesn't really make them any different than anybody else. ============================ I disaggree, there is growing documentation that the awakening force, if allowed to move freely in an individual, changes the bio-chemical makeup of the individual. ===================== Blessings, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 5/31/02 6:29 AM, jodyrrr at jodyrrr wrote: > snip > > > Well, one person awakening another. How does that happen? > There are various ideas about that. > > ============ > > First of all, Saniel would be the first one to say he didn't do it. But he > was the instigator or he helped.... By being the focal point which provides a suitable framework of belief in the attendee's minds. At any rate, it's nice to hear he's not trying to set himself up as the next coming of Christ. > I admit to phrasing that badly, although i think that transmission, > shaktipat , reiki, chi , the spirit is more active in some people and why > should n't it be? We are not all endowed with the same physical strengths, > are we? If you care to believe such things have anything to do with the Self. > ======================= > > It's common to believe > that the teacher has some kind of "power" due to their > being Self realized. The expectation is that Self realization > comes with magical abilities that allow one to magically > awaken those around them. It's as if the teacher has a > bubble of infinity around them, and when others come into > the sphere, they somehow "catch" the infinity in themselves. > > I say hogwash. What's really happening, imo, is that the > students are projecting their own inner power on to the > teacher, and because they believe the power is in the > teacher, they mediate their own awakening by agency of > a placebo effect that is produced by their belief. > It's more akin to hysteria than magic. > ===================== > > Shaktipat is well documented and I believe a genuine although yet unprovable > phenomenon. Generally it used to facilitate a temporary initiatory opening > in the energy field of a human. But the "energy field" of a human is no closer to the Self than any other body part. The Self is always the foundation of being. Changing an energy field won't bring it any closer. It is always closer to us than our own breath. There is certainly something going on between realized teachers and their students, and while there may be tons on anecdotal evidence that indicates something seems to be "transmitted", the actual chain of causation can only be speculated about. My speculation about the placebo-like effect of the teacher may not be very glamorous, but it seems a more likely explanation to this mind after months of observing a transmission guru from the perspective of being his "right-hand man." > ========================= > snip > > Some may live in an > experiential recognition of this and some may not, but > that quality doesn't really make them any different than > anybody else. > ============================ > > I disaggree, there is growing documentation that the awakening force, if > allowed to move freely in an individual, changes the bio-chemical makeup of > the individual. > ===================== > > Blessings, Shaw Belief in such a force only moves one away from the immediate truth of their own nature. If I'm to wait for an "awakening force" to act, how can I be what I already am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 on 5/31/02 6:33 PM, jodyrrr at jodyrrr wrote: , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 5/31/02 6snip although i think that transmission, > shaktipat , reiki, chi , the spirit is more active in some people and why > should n't it be? We are not all endowed with the same physical strengths, > are we? ======================== If you care to believe such things have anything to do with the Self. ============================= Such things have to do with an awakened human being. Is not the Self incarnating AS A HUMAN? =================================== snip > Shaktipat is well documented and I believe a genuine although yet unprovable > phenomenon. Generally it used to facilitate a temporary initiatory opening > in the energy field of a human. =============================== But the "energy field" of a human is no closer to the Self than any other body part. The Self is always the foundation of being. Changing an energy field won't bring it any closer. It is always closer to us than our own breath. ========================== no action at all can be said to "bring it closer." I believe the Self radiates as a kind of conscious love ENERGY. And it is felt physicly.... ======================================= There is certainly something going on between realized teachers and their students, and while there may be tons on anecdotal evidence that indicates something seems to be "transmitted", the actual chain of causation can only be speculated about. ===================== This is true of even so called scientific "proof." ==================================== My speculation about the placebo-like effect of the teacher may not be very glamorous, but it seems a more likely explanation to this mind after months of observing a transmission guru from the perspective of being his "right-hand man." > ========================= ....but it IS glamorous, you're saying a false belief in a thing causes magic. It is interesting, you say, "to this mind!" What about feelings? Sometimes I find the whole concept of Maya to be not only utterly useless, but dangerous also. Everything is real AND devine. ============================== > Some may live in an > experiential recognition of this and some may not, but > that quality doesn't really make them any different than > anybody else. > ============================ > > I disaggree, there is growing documentation that the awakening force, if > allowed to move freely in an individual, changes the bio-chemical makeup of > the individual. > ===================== Belief in such a force only moves one away from the immediate truth of their own nature. If I'm to wait for an "awakening force" to act, how can I be what I already am +++++++++++++++++++ How can you move away? or toward? Isn't this force, like everything else not seperate from the Self. Did I say "wait?" Namaste, Shawn Sponsor /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: [snip] > Such things have to do with an awakened human being. Is > not the Self incarnating AS A HUMAN? These things (prana, chi, etc.) are found in *any* human being. An awakened human being is no different than any other aside from the fact that they are awakened. We are always the Self. The conditions of awakening exist in everyone at all times. The only difference is in the recognition of this. Some haven't recognized it, some are striving to recognize it, and some have already recognized it, but the recognition or non-recognition of it doesn't change the fact of it in every human being. [snip] > no action at all can be said to "bring it closer." > I believe the Self radiates as a kind of conscious > love ENERGY. > > And it is felt physicly.... No action does nothing, but that doesn't change the fact that we are already the Self. There is no becoming, only uncovering that which already exists. But if you're feeling something, that is not the Self. "Not by speech, not by mind, Not by sight can He be apprehended." --Katha Upanishad That's not to say all feelings are insignificant. As the mind undergoes the rigors of sadhana, there are many feelings present. They may indicate ongoing transformation, or not. But the Self is always present throughout any spiritual practices. We might feel something akin to bliss, but if it's mediated by the senses then it's of the senses. The Self is ever beyond the senses, yet feelings are always limited to them. [snip] > ...but it IS glamorous, you're saying a false belief in a > thing causes magic. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that a person's belief in another's ability to awaken loosens their own bonds psychologically. We are always the Self, but as individuals we've developed in this life entirely within the context of being an individual. Our only touchstone in life has been back to our being an individual. We've never forgotten who we are, it's just that we've never *noticed* who we are because the basis of our experience has always been from the regard of the individual. When we decide to find ourselves again, it is from within the *assumption* that we don't yet know ourselves. The fact is that we exist in the constant knowledge of ourselves, we just don't see it. When we go to a so-called transmission teacher, we go with the belief that they will be able to show us who we are. Since we exist in the knowledge of who we are anyway (just not believing we do,) by going to someone we believe can help us, we just start believing we *can* know ourselves, and as a result, some may come to indeed do so. There's nothing magic about it. It's all purely psychological. However, there are still questions about the authenticity of these awakenings. I know in my experience many of what were being called awakenings were just emotional experiences labeled as awakening. By calling these experiences awakenings, the person who supposedly provides them is assured of the continued attendance of those who were supposedly awakened. > It is interesting, you say, "to this mind!" > What about feelings? My definition of the mind includes feelings. > Sometimes I find the whole concept of Maya to be not only > utterly useless, but dangerous also. Everything is real > AND devine. Absolutely true. However, that's not to say it isn't Maya as well. It's usually understood that "Maya" is a concept employed to describe differentiated manifestation. It exists and we give it a name. We know the Self is undifferentiated, yet we appear to be surrounded by the different, and that's been given the name "Maya" by the rishis. You may not like the concept, but it forms the foundation of Shankara's philosophy and it has its uses in these discussions. [snip] > How can you move away? or toward? Isn't this force, like > everything else not seperate from the Self. Did I say "wait?" You cannot move away or toward, yet the idea of an awakening force seems to suggest that something pushes you toward awakening. If there is an "awakening force", then it's just the psychological movement inherent in spiritual practice. Those engaging in sadhana are cultivating certain states of mind. The cultivation of these states seems to assist in coming to the recognition known as Self realization. During this process it appears to the mind that progress is being made. The movement of this progress could be called an awakening force I suppose. However, that doesn't change the fact that we are always awake in the knowledge of our own being, whether or not we've come to see it from our standpoint as individuals. > Namaste, Shawn Take care. --jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2002 Report Share Posted June 2, 2002 Well-said, Jody. Thanks, and namaste. As long as there is assumed the experience of two separable beings with space between, and with one doing something to or for the other, then the conceptuality of "two beings" is yet maintained. Love, Dan > > > > > > ================================= > > > > I don't know what that means....care to elaborate? > > Well, one person awakening another. How does that happen? > There are various ideas about that. It's common to believe > that the teacher has some kind of "power" due to their > being Self realized. The expectation is that Self realization > comes with magical abilities that allow one to magically > awaken those around them. It's as if the teacher has a > bubble of infinity around them, and when others come into > the sphere, they somehow "catch" the infinity in themselves. > > I say hogwash. What's really happening, imo, is that the > students are projecting their own inner power on to the > teacher, and because they believe the power is in the > teacher, they mediate their own awakening by agency of > a placebo effect that is produced by their belief. > It's more akin to hysteria than magic. > > That's not to say that the awakenings produced are > any less real. They aren't. It's just that the credit > goes to the teacher's power rather than the student's. > The student is led to believe the teacher did it, and > the "trick" the teacher uses is to encourage this belief. > > The fact is that we are all the Self, equally. No being > is "more" the Self than another. Some may live in an > experiential recognition of this and some may not, but > that quality doesn't really make them any different than > anybody else. > > As the teacher takes his/her satsang to different places, > posters go up promising magical results. People come > expecting those results. If the teacher is able to meet > the students (incorrect) expectations about what a Self > realized person is like, they open themselves to their > own Self in the context of believing the teacher is > doing it. Bunches of people get awakened and become > students by this "trick." The teacher can naively believe > he/she is doing it too. That is, sometimes the trick is > being played on the teacher as well. The end result is > some people get started on the path, but the unfortunate > part of it is that they've now been led to believe they > need the teacher, or that the teacher can do it for them. > > > =========================== > > > > > Harshaji has brought together a living community of > > > spiritual brothers and sisters. Like siblings we may > > > have our spats, but in the end it's understood we stand > > > together as those who seek to know themselves as we > > > really are. > > > > > > So enjoy. > > > > > > --jody. > > ====================== > > > > Thanks Jody and Hi. How are you....or should I say ..WHO are you? > > > > Blessings, Shawn > > We are all the Self, but Mother Shakti has thrown these puppet > suits over us, and so we become Her little actors on this stage > called the world. My role seems to be to tilt at the montrosity > of expectations that have collected in the context of spiritual > culture. So many people have come to believe so many things > about Self-realization, yet Self-realization has never been > anything other than Itself. It always defies these expectations, > but due to the exceedingly subtle nature of the Self, it invariably > gets covered up by them. That is, to believe something about > the Self prevents the Self from being recognized as it is covered > up by the belief. > > That's the problem with the transmission teacher phenomenon. > People come to expect that their Self-realization will render > them capable of the same miracles. Their Self-realization is > with them at all times, but how will they see it if it isn't > accompanied by magical powers? The responsible teacher does > what they can to prevent these expectations from forming in > their students. The best teachers are the ones who stand on > the same floor as their students, making every effort to let > them know we all brush our teeth the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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