Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Hi Shawn and CJ This type of discussion I like... There is also the story of Tuesday Lobsang Rampa... now seen as a charlatan by many... the influence he had though on preparing the West for Tibetan Buddhism was immense. Same with Alan Watts, we cannot just discard those people as charlatans... I hear also enough silly stuff about the celestial Prophesy man "Redfield"... some think he is a fraud. I know of the great suffering that these people go through... Osho comes to mind... and indeed Adi Da, (Franklin Jones)... even deposed Zen masters (alcoholism). We cannot allow derision of these people... understanding is needed. We have had plenty of people on this list who think they have to be vigilantes against charlatans. I'd rather love charlatans, as I can understand them. (Hehehe, being one myself in the eyes of some at least :-) Derision (which comes in many forms from disdain to scorn, dislike, disrespect, contempt, indignation, dispisal etc.) is the real problem.... The charlatan characterization (deeming another human being to be a charlatan...) comes from the person who does the charlataning... Ask a charlatanee ( 'a deemed' charlatan) personally... which I have done a few times... and you get a totally different picture... Talk to a "charlataner" eye to eye... and often, very quickly great anger surfaces, sometimes very close to violence... That is the problem... They invariably have been duped... but not by the alleged charlatan. They have been duped and maltreated, very deeply hurt very early in their life by someone very close to them. But rather than addressing the original duper with legitimate anger (fear being the reason for not being able to do that) they transpose their mistrust and anger on someone who could possibly be the one who can help them free themselves from their original pain and through their anger. Why don't we face this... People who are 'charlatan vigilantes' (the ones who have a great need to expose dupers) also have a lot of denial in their life... In previous years on this list, I have often enough explained how that works. I called it the "Tony Syndrome" Denial, indeed, in my work I encounter denial an immense lot... Most of you know that I use quite an advanced cutting edge biofeedback machine in my work...(keeps me objective). Denial always shows up as periods of no signal coming through from the client. Then all of a sudden great bursts of energy. One way or another, through the way I assist, I have them come in touch with that quickly... It is very emotional and extremely liberating... Ah the relief... when the denial disappears... Let me just leave it at this... Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: "Take the case of Alan Watts. People are still following him and treat him as an enlightened Zen master when it is clear from his own mouth, he only understood it mentally and was himself bereft of any first-hand groking. Remember that word?" Hi Shawn, I'm also new to this group, but what's important is the difficulties I have with Advaita/nondualism. More about that later though. You seem to take a swipe at AW (I've heard of the alcoholism), obviously he was a tremendous teacher, so as you asked elsewhere, "do you care to elaborate"? CJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 on 5/31/02 3:28 AM, d_agenda2000 at d_agenda2000 wrote: , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: "Take the case of Alan Watts. People are still following him and treat him as an enlightened Zen master when it is clear from his own mouth, he only understood it mentally and was himself bereft of any first-hand groking. Remember that word?" Hi Shawn, I'm also new to this group, but what's important is the difficulties I have with Advaita/nondualism. More about that later though. You seem to take a swipe at AW (I've heard of the alcoholism), obviously he was a tremendous teacher, so as you asked elsewhere, "do you care to elaborate"? CJ ================ I'm merely saying, Mr. Watts admitted freely that he was not enlightened. He only like talking about it. Explaining Zen to westerners...I think it humorous that so many people flock to him when it seems to me if you're thirsty, you go to a fountain, not to someone who talks about what a fountain is like or how it works. Don't get me wrong, I like Alan Watts, I could care less if he drinks too much...I just wouldn't go to him or read him as a "source." Like Ram Das is not the source. Neem Karoli Baba is. I have not heard From Ram Das in quite a while , so I don't know much about him at this juncture, but when I was reading him and listening to him speak, it was merely a kind of spiritual entertainment and he openly admitted to not being awake. He told great stories about his guru! I'm just saying AW is not a guru, and never claimed to be. I am also NOT saying there is no value in listening to him. You can awaken with the help of a fire hydrant, but I doubt that you can recieve direct transmission or shaktipat from one! Blessings, Shawn Sponsor Height: 4 5 6 7 ft 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 in Weight: Sex: F M /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 5/31/02 3:28 AM, d_agenda2000 at d_agenda2000 wrote: > > , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > > "Take the case of Alan Watts. People are still following him and > treat him as an enlightened Zen master when it is clear from his own > mouth, he only understood it mentally and was himself bereft of any > first-hand groking. Remember that word?" > > Hi Shawn, > > I'm also new to this group, but what's important is the > difficulties I have with Advaita/nondualism. More about that later > though. You seem to take a swipe at AW (I've heard of the > alcoholism), obviously he was a tremendous teacher, so as you asked > elsewhere, "do you care to elaborate"? > > > CJ > ================ > > I'm merely saying, Mr. Watts admitted freely that he was not enlightened. > > He only like talking about it. Explaining Zen to westerners...I think it > humorous that so many people flock to him when it seems to me if you're > thirsty, you go to a fountain, not to someone who talks about what a > fountain is like or how it works. > > Don't get me wrong, I like Alan Watts, I could care less if he drinks too > much...I just wouldn't go to him or read him as a "source." > > Like Ram Das is not the source. Neem Karoli Baba is. > I have not heard From Ram Das in quite a while , so I don't know much about > him at this juncture, but when I was reading him and listening to him speak, > it was merely a kind of spiritual entertainment and he openly admitted to > not being awake. He told great stories about his guru! > > I'm just saying AW is not a guru, and never claimed to be. I am also NOT > saying there is no value in listening to him. You can awaken with the help > of a fire hydrant, but I doubt that you can recieve direct transmission or > shaktipat from one! > > Blessings, Shawn > > Hi, I've only listened to a few A.Watts tapes, and what one picks up immediately is his sense of humor. It must have been in a funny story that he admitted that "he was not enlightened". I thought that a first rule in the precious interaction between Teacher and Students is that the Teacher does not Proclaim his Enlightenment. For example, a snip from an Interview with D.Harding on this subject: When asked about Enlightenment. [DH]: "I don't use the word enlightened anymore; it's a buzz word, it's a word which is a very, very tricky one, and I don't say I'm enlightened and you're endarkened. I do not say that. In fact, I don't feel that way. I don't feel myself to be enlightened in a world of endarkened people. [Douglas Harding is the inventor of headlessness, also called "seeing who you really are," a method of self-inquiry based on simple, practical exercises. He was interviewed in 1996 by Kriben Pillay, editor of The Noumenon Journal.] I'm not familiar with the reasons why certain Teachers deny their capacity. For example, Tenzin Gyatso prefers to be referred to as a "simple monk" (hahaha). Perhaps it's a matter of finessing the students' entry onto the spiritual path. One result of denying one's enlightenment to would be students is to remove the "illusory" distance between enlightenment and endarkenment. CJ By > > Sponsor > Height: 4 5 6 7 ft 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 in Weight: Sex: F M > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Terms of Service > <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2002 Report Share Posted June 2, 2002 Alan Watts described what he considered a personal awakening experience, a release of any continuing mental contents or sense of identity apart. However, that he described such in text and to friends is mentioned not to validate or invalidate him or his teaching -- but simply to say it's a mistake to think that he was saying that he lacked insight and thought he needed more. He frequently talked about the self-deception involved in attempts to get to enlightenment or claim a certain state as enlightenment. He saw such attempts as attempts to get "one-up on oneself," attempts that could never succeed. His self-proclaimed position as "entertainer" was a way to avoid the paradox of selling water to the river as a guru. His difficulties with alcohol indicate addictive tendencies. This raises the question of whether or not "seeing beyond 'me'" releases addictive tendencies. Watts claimed that he saw "everything as it," and thus could say, "my addictive tendencies are it, too." If one doesn't need someone else to be enlightened, then the question of whether or not Alan Watts told the truth becomes irrelevant. If enlightenment is the nature of the source of all, and if it is all, if it is totality, then there is no concern with whether or not Watts, or Chogyam Trungpa, or anyone else is or isn't enlightened. Only resting in this truth, prior to being or not-being, is the case. All images appearing and disappearing, Watts and Pope Paul and Virginia Wolfe are images appearing and dissolving ... >From my perspective, Watts wasn't saying that he was a perfect human being, nor that there is an enlightenment that makes a person perfect -- but that perfection is the ordinary, is the way things are. Now, can a person dealing with alcoholism use this as a defense, to assist denial and avoidance? It may well be the case. Which seems to point to the limitations of making insight into a belief system, including the belief that no beliefs are necessary. The efforts to claim that certain people are the source and other people aren't just divides truth into more of it over here and less of it over there -- When one is not trying to locate truth, one rests in one's own being as truth ... Love and namaste, Dan > on 5/31/02 3:28 AM, d_agenda2000 at d_agenda2000 wrote: > > , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > > "Take the case of Alan Watts. People are still following him and > treat him as an enlightened Zen master when it is clear from his own > mouth, he only understood it mentally and was himself bereft of any > first-hand groking. Remember that word?" > > Hi Shawn, > > I'm also new to this group, but what's important is the > difficulties I have with Advaita/nondualism. More about that later > though. You seem to take a swipe at AW (I've heard of the > alcoholism), obviously he was a tremendous teacher, so as you asked > elsewhere, "do you care to elaborate"? > > > CJ > ================ > > I'm merely saying, Mr. Watts admitted freely that he was not enlightened. > > He only like talking about it. Explaining Zen to westerners...I think it > humorous that so many people flock to him when it seems to me if you're > thirsty, you go to a fountain, not to someone who talks about what a > fountain is like or how it works. > > Don't get me wrong, I like Alan Watts, I could care less if he drinks too > much...I just wouldn't go to him or read him as a "source." > > Like Ram Das is not the source. Neem Karoli Baba is. > I have not heard From Ram Das in quite a while , so I don't know much about > him at this juncture, but when I was reading him and listening to him speak, > it was merely a kind of spiritual entertainment and he openly admitted to > not being awake. He told great stories about his guru! > > I'm just saying AW is not a guru, and never claimed to be. I am also NOT > saying there is no value in listening to him. You can awaken with the help > of a fire hydrant, but I doubt that you can recieve direct transmission or > shaktipat from one! > > Blessings, Shawn > > > > > > Sponsor > Height: 4 5 6 7 ft 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 in Weight: Sex: F M > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Terms of Service > <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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