Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 okay now - let's see if I can piece this together after a weekend of fancy talk and high falutin' concepts read over and over- - - Everyone is born with a higher Self and the trick is to realize it. These higher Selfs are how we are all related on a higher plane, and where we go when we meditate. But we also create the psychological self for getting by in a material world - aka "ego" - and don it like armor for day to day activities. Depending upon our awareness of our Self we could be operating with our higher Self resonating through the psychological self, or else maybe be totally obtuse from each other. The further along the spiritual path we go, the more we groom our higher Self and the easier it is to access it in a world that is chaotic at best. My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist on the levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or overcome at that point; am I right? I mean - one doesn't hear about spiritual masters teaching the ways of the dark path (although Osho when he was pretending to be Rajneesh came pretty dang close...). It is only people either blind to spiritual matters who become evil, or who are imbalanced by greed or lust or power and other earthly vanities. If those people being led astray by evil thoughts and activities were meditating on the Light or on their higher Self, there would be no room for evil. When we ourselves are overwrought by darkness we meditate on the Light and elevated thoughts and our True Nature and uplift our mood, not succumb to evil - such as child killing pedophiles, or blood thirsty war mongers. How do we account for them - for whom violence and evil is a way of life? How do we get them to reflect on their Self and meditate when they are stuck in survival mode? Is it really evil if they are ignorant of how to change? What IS evil? best regards, valerie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 , v <amused@p...> wrote: >My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist on the levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or overcome at that point; am I right? ....Hello Valerie -- Thank you for sharing your inquiry here! Many wise people have considered the questions you have asked, and of course there have been mnay different answers to such questions, usually dependend upon what vantage point of consciousness the responses are come from. For example, if someone is identified with the point of view of unity consciousness, they might answer that there is only God, and evil is but another mask of God, or Spirit. From the point of view of formless consciousness, one might answer that nothing has ever happened, and that neither good nor evil exist. From the witness position, it might be said that there is only arising and dissolving, and that any attempt to attribute qualities of good or evil to what is essentially transitory phenomena is pointless. from the relative perspective, it can be argued that good or evil are nothing but arbitrary concepts derived from conditioning factors, and one man's meat is another man's poison. in other words, there seems to be a certain validity to every point of view, and yet none of them are comprehensive, and so you are left with the inquiry -- what is true? - -and if one has the wherewithall, the maturity, so to speak, to just sit with the question without the necessity or demand to have an answer, then something may eventually reveal itself within that silence, that stillness, that renders such questions obsolete. in fact, it may be seen that these are not even your real question. your real question has, perhaps, yet to be asked. intellectual exploration and speculation can be amusing, but there is something that you may have already begun to notice, and that is the fact that all the answers you have ever received have done nothing but modify mind. you have an intuition that there is a question that has nothing to do with mind, and when you are able to give that question a voice, then there will be an availabilty to Grace. LoveAlways, b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 , v <amused@p...> wrote: > okay now - let's see if I can piece this together after a weekend of > fancy talk and high falutin' concepts read over and over- - - > > Everyone is born with a higher Self and the trick is to realize it. Not quite. Everyone *is* the Self and the trick is to see ourselves as It. > These higher Selfs are how we are all related on a higher plane, and > where we go when we meditate. There is only one Self. When we meditate we are trying to clear the mind, which may or may not lead to knowing ourselves as the Self. > But we also create the psychological self for getting by in a > material world - aka "ego" - and don it like armor for day to day > activities. The "ego" is a creation of our being alive. We don't create it, it is created by the mind's reactions to our life's circumstances. > Depending upon our awareness of our Self we could be > operating with our higher Self resonating through the psychological > self, or else maybe be totally obtuse from each other. The Self does not operate. It provides the foundation of being, but is itself uninvolved in life. The "amount" of Self never changes. It is the same in all at all times, regardless of where a person's awareness is at. > The further along > the spiritual path we go, the more we groom our higher Self and the > easier it is to access it in a world that is chaotic at best. The further along we go, the further along we've gone. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with our being the Self. As far as the Self is concerned, there is nowhere to go. We are always the Self in every moment. It's a simple matter of seeing it directly. Whether we see it or not, we always are it in each moment. > My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist on the > levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or overcome at > that point; am I right? Good and evil are labels describing human behavior. They exist in the psychologies of man. > I mean - one doesn't hear about spiritual > masters teaching the ways of the dark path (although Osho when he was > pretending to be Rajneesh came pretty dang close...). It is only people > either blind to spiritual matters who become evil, or who are imbalanced > by greed or lust or power and other earthly vanities. If those people > being led astray by evil thoughts and activities were meditating on the > Light or on their higher Self, there would be no room for evil. When we > ourselves are overwrought by darkness we meditate on the Light and > elevated thoughts and our True Nature and uplift our mood, not succumb > to evil - such as child killing pedophiles, or blood thirsty war > mongers. How do we account for them - for whom violence and evil is a > way of life? They've learned evil as a life strategy. It's worked for them in their lives. > How do we get them to reflect on their Self and meditate > when they are stuck in survival mode? Is it really evil if they are > ignorant of how to change? > What IS evil? > best regards, > valerie Evil is hurting yourself or another. You can't make anyone change if they don't want to. Evil is a condition of being in the world and if you don't like it then it's best to stay out of its way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 The question that slices to the heart of good and evil, still can't slice itself. No matter how much you resolve, you still can't resolve the activity of resolution. When there is no need for a resolution, good and evil take care of themselves. Namaste Valerie, Bob, all -- :-) Dan , "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote: > , v <amused@p...> wrote: > > >My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist on the > levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or overcome > at that point; am I right? > > ...Hello Valerie -- > > Thank you for sharing your inquiry here! Many wise people have > considered the questions you have asked, and of course there have > been mnay different answers to such questions, usually dependend upon > what vantage point of consciousness the responses are come from. For > example, if someone is identified with the point of view of unity > consciousness, they might answer that there is only God, and evil is > but another mask of God, or Spirit. From the point of view of > formless consciousness, one might answer that nothing has ever > happened, and that neither good nor evil exist. From the witness > position, it might be said that there is only arising and dissolving, > and that any attempt to attribute qualities of good or evil to what > is essentially transitory phenomena is pointless. from the relative > perspective, it can be argued that good or evil are nothing but > arbitrary concepts derived from conditioning factors, and one man's > meat is another man's poison. in other words, there seems to be a > certain validity to every point of view, and yet none of them are > comprehensive, and so you are left with the inquiry -- what is true? - > -and if one has the wherewithall, the maturity, so to speak, to just > sit with the question without the necessity or demand to have an > answer, then something may eventually reveal itself within that > silence, that stillness, that renders such questions obsolete. in > fact, it may be seen that these are not even your real question. your > real question has, perhaps, yet to be asked. intellectual exploration > and speculation can be amusing, but there is something that you may > have already begun to notice, and that is the fact that all the > answers you have ever received have done nothing but modify mind. you > have an intuition that there is a question that has nothing to do > with mind, and when you are able to give that question a voice, then > there will be an availabilty to Grace. > > LoveAlways, > > b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Dear valerie, I know it is hard to see any great sublime loving "anything" behind this mad dancing-with- opposites world. Evil people exist. I am not making any absolute sublime statements here, only talking plainly person to person. These people usually act with out regard or apparent love for anything. These people are only apparently evil and only temporarily "evil" as all things change. For the most part I feel that these people are afraid and hurt and now angry, and they are flailing out at the world and "God" and life and everything for their hurt. As you say, when they are in "survival mode" it is nearly impossible to get anyone to contemplate the Self. Give thanks that we are so enabled by all the suffering that has gone before us. Is the Lion "evil" who pull down the baby antelope. This is why it IS important for the world to "wake up." We are not only the self in practicality. We are many years, perhaps lives of evolution and motivated momentum. In this regard, a person may be born "evil". All the wounds we feel must be felt through, felt fully, not judged, all reactions have been appropriate given the circumstances. The ego is only this, a frightened misidentified survival mechanism. This is why so many "lesser forms" of the Way are taught. Not all can contemplate with sucess, for some mantras may help calm their minds or phisical austerities exhaust or balance the vital energies, etc. Rules of behavior, right action are given to the masses. But now is urgent time and information travels at the speed of sound and "secrets" are openly given to the masses, because H bombs are being amassed on borders and the planet is being poisoned. Take refuge in the witness and then bring the witness forward into life. Always the best wishes, Shawn ============================== on 6/2/02 7:35 PM, v at amused (AT) ptialaska (DOT) net wrote: okay now - let's see if I can piece this together after a weekend of fancy talk and high falutin' concepts read over and over- - - Everyone is born with a higher Self and the trick is to realize it. These higher Selfs are how we are all related on a higher plane, and where we go when we meditate. But we also create the psychological self for getting by in a material world - aka "ego" - and don it like armor for day to day activities. Depending upon our awareness of our Self we could be operating with our higher Self resonating through the psychological self, or else maybe be totally obtuse from each other. The further along the spiritual path we go, the more we groom our higher Self and the easier it is to access it in a world that is chaotic at best. My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist on the levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or overcome at that point; am I right? I mean - one doesn't hear about spiritual masters teaching the ways of the dark path (although Osho when he was pretending to be Rajneesh came pretty dang close...). It is only people either blind to spiritual matters who become evil, or who are imbalanced by greed or lust or power and other earthly vanities. If those people being led astray by evil thoughts and activities were meditating on the Light or on their higher Self, there would be no room for evil. When we ourselves are overwrought by darkness we meditate on the Light and elevated thoughts and our True Nature and uplift our mood, not succumb to evil - such as child killing pedophiles, or blood thirsty war mongers. How do we account for them - for whom violence and evil is a way of life? How do we get them to reflect on their Self and meditate when they are stuck in survival mode? Is it really evil if they are ignorant of how to change? What IS evil? best regards, valerie Sponsor /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Hey Jody -- You are singing the song called "Love's Wisdom" ... Loud and clear! Beautiful notes, wonderful tune. Isn't he melodic as well as compassionate, Valerie? -- Dan , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > , v <amused@p...> wrote: > > okay now - let's see if I can piece this together after a weekend of > > fancy talk and high falutin' concepts read over and over- - - > > > > Everyone is born with a higher Self and the trick is to realize it. > > Not quite. Everyone *is* the Self and the trick is to see > ourselves as It. > > > These higher Selfs are how we are all related on a higher plane, and > > where we go when we meditate. > > There is only one Self. When we meditate we are trying to > clear the mind, which may or may not lead to knowing ourselves > as the Self. > > > But we also create the psychological self for getting by in a > > material world - aka "ego" - and don it like armor for day to day > > activities. > > The "ego" is a creation of our being alive. We don't create > it, it is created by the mind's reactions to our life's > circumstances. > > > Depending upon our awareness of our Self we could be > > operating with our higher Self resonating through the psychological > > self, or else maybe be totally obtuse from each other. > > The Self does not operate. It provides the foundation of > being, but is itself uninvolved in life. > > The "amount" of Self never changes. It is the same in all > at all times, regardless of where a person's awareness is at. > > > The further along > > the spiritual path we go, the more we groom our higher Self and the > > easier it is to access it in a world that is chaotic at best. > > The further along we go, the further along we've gone. It > doesn't necessarily have anything to do with our being the Self. > > As far as the Self is concerned, there is nowhere to go. We > are always the Self in every moment. It's a simple matter of > seeing it directly. Whether we see it or not, we always are > it in each moment. > > > My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist on the > > levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or overcome at > > that point; am I right? > > Good and evil are labels describing human behavior. They exist > in the psychologies of man. > > > I mean - one doesn't hear about spiritual > > masters teaching the ways of the dark path (although Osho when he was > > pretending to be Rajneesh came pretty dang close...). It is only people > > either blind to spiritual matters who become evil, or who are imbalanced > > by greed or lust or power and other earthly vanities. If those people > > being led astray by evil thoughts and activities were meditating on the > > Light or on their higher Self, there would be no room for evil. When we > > ourselves are overwrought by darkness we meditate on the Light and > > elevated thoughts and our True Nature and uplift our mood, not succumb > > to evil - such as child killing pedophiles, or blood thirsty war > > mongers. How do we account for them - for whom violence and evil is a > > way of life? > > They've learned evil as a life strategy. It's worked for > them in their lives. > > > How do we get them to reflect on their Self and meditate > > when they are stuck in survival mode? Is it really evil if they are > > ignorant of how to change? > > What IS evil? > > best regards, > > valerie > > Evil is hurting yourself or another. You can't make anyone > change if they don't want to. Evil is a condition of being in > the world and if you don't like it then it's best to stay out > of its way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 in lieu of answering every -as you say- melodic as well as compassionate point - I just want to say that I agree that evil is in many schools of thought - such as "The Golden Rule" and Wiccan to speak of - means if you hurt yourself or others. Simplistic but effective within so many diverse and chaotic changes - mind over matter becomes reality so it's best to culture self discipline at the very basis of our beings and be aware lest bad thoughts become reality. Thankyou for this! valerie :-) dan330033 wrote: Hey Jody -- You are singing the song called "Love's Wisdom" ... Loud and clear! Beautiful notes, wonderful tune. Isn't he melodic as well as compassionate, Valerie? -- Dan , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > , v <amused@p...> wrote: > > okay now - let's see if I can piece this together after a weekend of > > fancy talk and high falutin' concepts read over and over- - - > > > > Everyone is born with a higher Self and the trick is to realize it. > > Not quite. Everyone *is* the Self and the trick is to see > ourselves as It. > > > These higher Selfs are how we are all related on a higher plane, and > > where we go when we meditate. > > There is only one Self. When we meditate we are trying to > clear the mind, which may or may not lead to knowing ourselves > as the Self. > > > But we also create the psychological self for getting by in a > > material world - aka "ego" - and don it like armor for day to day > > activities. > > The "ego" is a creation of our being alive. We don't create > it, it is created by the mind's reactions to our life's > circumstances. > > > Depending upon our awareness of our Self we could be > > operating with our higher Self resonating through the psychological > > self, or else maybe be totally obtuse from each other. > > The Self does not operate. It provides the foundation of > being, but is itself uninvolved in life. > > The "amount" of Self never changes. It is the same in all > at all times, regardless of where a person's awareness is at. > > > The further along > > the spiritual path we go, the more we groom our higher Self and the > > easier it is to access it in a world that is chaotic at best. > > The further along we go, the further along we've gone. It > doesn't necessarily have anything to do with our being the Self. > > As far as the Self is concerned, there is nowhere to go. We > are always the Self in every moment. It's a simple matter of > seeing it directly. Whether we see it or not, we always are > it in each moment. > > > My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist on the > > levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or overcome at > > that point; am I right? > > Good and evil are labels describing human behavior. They exist > in the psychologies of man. > > > I mean - one doesn't hear about spiritual > > masters teaching the ways of the dark path (although Osho when he was > > pretending to be Rajneesh came pretty dang close...). It is only people > > either blind to spiritual matters who become evil, or who are imbalanced > > by greed or lust or power and other earthly vanities. If those people > > being led astray by evil thoughts and activities were meditating on the > > Light or on their higher Self, there would be no room for evil. When we > > ourselves are overwrought by darkness we meditate on the Light and > > elevated thoughts and our True Nature and uplift our mood, not succumb > > to evil - such as child killing pedophiles, or blood thirsty war > > mongers. How do we account for them - for whom violence and evil is a > > way of life? > > They've learned evil as a life strategy. It's worked for > them in their lives. > > > How do we get them to reflect on their Self and meditate > > when they are stuck in survival mode? Is it really evil if they are > > ignorant of how to change? > > What IS evil? > > best regards, > > valerie > > Evil is hurting yourself or another. You can't make anyone > change if they don't want to. Evil is a condition of being in > the world and if you don't like it then it's best to stay out > of its way. <snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 jodyrrr wrote: , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > Hey Jody -- > > You are singing the song called "Love's Wisdom" ... > > Loud and clear! > > Beautiful notes, wonderful tune. > > Isn't he melodic as well as compassionate, Valerie? > > -- Dan I don't know where you're getting all that from, Dan. I look back at the thing and all I hear is "CLANK, CLANK." It's rather robotic to me. It gives me yet another pause in which to consider my responses in these discussions. --jody. [snip] one (hu)man's garbage is another (hu)man's treasure! ;-) valerie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > Hey Jody -- > > You are singing the song called "Love's Wisdom" ... > > Loud and clear! > > Beautiful notes, wonderful tune. > > Isn't he melodic as well as compassionate, Valerie? > > -- Dan I don't know where you're getting all that from, Dan. I look back at the thing and all I hear is "CLANK, CLANK." It's rather robotic to me. It gives me yet another pause in which to consider my responses in these discussions. --jody. [snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 well they say we create our own reality - so what I mostly see (pay attention to) is old growth wilderness, big waters across the street, and pods of killer whales returning on their journies yesterday and this morning. To become witness to the atrocities going on in the world where one has no power to become involved or stop, is a department where I have given over to shining my own Light and prayer. If we succumb to having no personal power say - next to them politicos and war mongers killing and starving children and what have you - out of our hands (evil? probably. but what can be done about it by someone on another path reading a newspaper and speculating?) then we are doomed. I think we are all like plants - connected to the planet - and must stay strong to do what our part is, and my part seems to be a conduit for light and prayer. There must be many ways to witness, and maybe evil can be neutralized by light and/or love if we are strong, or maybe not. Maybe pacifists just get blown away by big bullies with bigger war toys - where is the mercy of our Gods to protect us from that, or tell us what to do? They say the best defense is a good offense - so that means being strong in our ways of love and compassion and being the best who we are, and for some of us that is a mightily difficult road to hoe once we've been afflicted. Knowing the Self is always there beyond the psycho no matter what - helps because then we can make the psychological like the wooch - (i.e. drive the car - do the dishes), while the True Self just sits back and watches; am I right? <grin> I get a case for the higher self being busy thinking or bein aware while the body is down on the earth plain working. I thought it was just called bein a space cadet; lol! :-) But no evil here - can't stand for it - life is too confusing. I don't do evil at least in my home - angst I'll do - it's only natural sometimes. But never hurt anybody - never even talk to them to bring them down, much less physical or emotional pain. Now the lion on the antelope - that's a directive of nature - can that really be evil? Antelopes are one of the fastest animals there are, after all. Seems like good clean sport in one sense. Is it evil because the lion could be eating at La Brattisserie having a nice juicy cow steak and harming no one? ouch - too many levels - so many questions... I believe in great loving sublime forces of Creators and a Divine Plan - just don't know Who altogether and what's the plan? But open to suggestions! :-) Any ideas? all my best, valerie shawn wrote: Dear valerie, I know it is hard to see any great sublime loving "anything" behind this mad dancing-with- opposites world. Evil people exist. I am not making any absolute sublime statements here, only talking plainly person to person. These people usually act with out regard or apparent love for anything. These people are only apparently evil and only temporarily "evil" as all things change. For the most part I feel that these people are afraid and hurt and now angry, and they are flailing out at the world and "God" and life and everything for their hurt. As you say, when they are in "survival mode" it is nearly impossible to get anyone to contemplate the Self. Give thanks that we are so enabled by all the suffering that has gone before us. Is the Lion "evil" who pull down the baby antelope. This is why it IS important for the world to "wake up." We are not only the self in practicality. We are many years, perhaps lives of evolution and motivated momentum. In this regard, a person may be born "evil". All the wounds we feel must be felt through, felt fully, not judged, all reactions have been appropriate given the circumstances. The ego is only this, a frightened misidentified survival mechanism. This is why so many "lesser forms" of the Way are taught. Not all can contemplate with sucess, for some mantras may help calm their minds or phisical austerities exhaust or balance the vital energies, etc. Rules of behavior, right action are given to the masses. But now is urgent time and information travels at the speed of sound and "secrets" are openly given to the masses, because H bombs are being amassed on borders and the planet is being poisoned. Take refuge in the witness and then bring the witness forward into life. Always the best wishes, Shawn ============================== on 6/2/02 7:35 PM, v at amused (AT) ptialaska (DOT) net wrote: okay now - let's see if I can piece this together after a weekend of fancy talk and high falutin' concepts read over and over- - - Everyone is born with a higher Self and the trick is to realize it. These higher Selfs are how we are all related on a higher plane, and where we go when we meditate. But we also create the psychological self for getting by in a material world - aka "ego" - and don it like armor for day to day activities. Depending upon our awareness of our Self we could be operating with our higher Self resonating through the psychological self, or else maybe be totally obtuse from each other. The further along the spiritual path we go, the more we groom our higher Self and the easier it is to access it in a world that is chaotic at best. My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist on the levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or overcome at that point; am I right? I mean - one doesn't hear about spiritual masters teaching the ways of the dark path (although Osho when he was pretending to be Rajneesh came pretty dang close...). It is only people either blind to spiritual matters who become evil, or who are imbalanced by greed or lust or power and other earthly vanities. If those people being led astray by evil thoughts and activities were meditating on the Light or on their higher Self, there would be no room for evil. When we ourselves are overwrought by darkness we meditate on the Light and elevated thoughts and our True Nature and uplift our mood, not succumb to evil - such as child killing pedophiles, or blood thirsty war mongers. How do we account for them - for whom violence and evil is a way of life? How do we get them to reflect on their Self and meditate when they are stuck in survival mode? Is it really evil if they are ignorant of how to change? What IS evil? best regards, valerie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 hrtbeat7 wrote: , v <amused@p...> wrote: (scroll down to bottom )-// >My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist on the levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or overcome at that point; am I right? ....Hello Valerie -- Thank you for sharing your inquiry here! Many wise people have considered the questions you have asked, and of course there have been mnay different answers to such questions, usually dependend upon what vantage point of consciousness the responses are come from. For example, if someone is identified with the point of view of unity consciousness, they might answer that there is only God, and evil is but another mask of God, or Spirit. From the point of view of formless consciousness, one might answer that nothing has ever happened, and that neither good nor evil exist. From the witness position, it might be said that there is only arising and dissolving, and that any attempt to attribute qualities of good or evil to what is essentially transitory phenomena is pointless. from the relative perspective, it can be argued that good or evil are nothing but arbitrary concepts derived from conditioning factors, and one man's meat is another man's poison. in other words, there seems to be a certain validity to every point of view, and yet none of them are comprehensive, and so you are left with the inquiry -- what is true? - -and if one has the wherewithall, the maturity, so to speak, to just sit with the question without the necessity or demand to have an answer, then something may eventually reveal itself within that silence, that stillness, that renders such questions obsolete. in fact, it may be seen that these are not even your real question. your real question has, perhaps, yet to be asked. intellectual exploration and speculation can be amusing, but there is something that you may have already begun to notice, and that is the fact that all the answers you have ever received have done nothing but modify mind. you have an intuition that there is a question that has nothing to do with mind, and when you are able to give that question a voice, then there will be an availabilty to Grace. LoveAlways, b what about when one feels that a great evil had been perpetrated upon one's body - inside and out - and wants to get rid of the filthy debased feeling which he/she is left with? Is it a trick of the mind, or does it take rituals from priests with altars with fire to cleanse away the evil - to purify? or is it so simple - get in the shower all alone and *poof* wash it away - it's gone? that hasn't worked for me so far and I wondered how other people exorcised evil when & if it became a problem? valerie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > I look back at the thing and all I hear is "CLANK, CLANK." > > It's rather robotic to me. It gives me yet another pause > in which to consider my responses in these discussions. Hindsight is quicksand don't get stuck... David (sludge) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > I look back at the thing and all I hear is "CLANK, CLANK." It's rather robotic to me. It gives me yet another pause in which to consider my responses in these discussions. ...."If you have times that you don't ache with love, you shouldn't be here with us." ~Rumi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Enjoyed your comments on this topic. Of course the lion who kills Bambi is Evil. Damn him! Damn him! When will the madness end? Blessings, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 I don't know where you're getting all that from, Dan. I look back at the thing and all I hear is "CLANK, CLANK." It's rather robotic to me. It gives me yet another pause in which to consider my responses in these discussions. --jody. Jody: That "clank clank" is just the noise from your old keyboard. Pay no attention. In the non-dual universe, it is part of a much bigger and more perfect keyboard (computer) that makes no awkward noises and feels wonderful all the time. The message was very harmonious and compassionate. What may seem mechanical to the self may only be the nature of habit and a life of repeated goodness growing familiar. Don't let it bother you. We won't. Love, Blessings, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Hi Jody -- > I don't know where you're getting all that from, Dan. > > I look back at the thing and all I hear is "CLANK, CLANK." I got it as immediate response, as "clarity" which sounded sweet, an experience of resonance ... Hmmmm... > It's rather robotic to me. Did I hear clarity where there was none? Or was it robotic clarity that clanked, and yet sounded musical from afar? > It gives me yet another pause > in which to consider my responses in these discussions. Okay. Something I wonder about here: is this evaluative review of what you said skewed because "you" said these words? Would you evaluate the same way if no "you" were involved in the speaking? Does a "you" come into play when reviewing the past to evaluate, the "you" seemingly there with the opinion, providing the "perspective about the past" ... Namaste, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 what about when one feels that a great evil had been perpetrated upon one's body - inside and out - and wants to get rid of the filthy debased feeling which he/she is left with? Is it a trick of the mind, or does it take rituals from priests with altars with fire to cleanse away the evil - to purify? or is it so simple - get in the shower all alone and *poof* wash it away - it's gone? that hasn't worked for me so far and I wondered how other people exorcised evil when & if it became a problem? valerie Dear Valerie, I am so sorry to hear you were harmed by anyone. This takes your question out of the theoretical realm of eveil entirely. The short answer is to do anything that "works" for you. Rituals work for those who believe in them, but not only for them. If being in the atmosphere of incense and chanting is a peaceful feeling for you, it may help on another level. Emotions are not rational critters, so forget the intellectual concepts. There may be no reason on earth to explain why anything helps, just do whatever does comfort you, what restores a "good feeling". What restores good feelings for me is nature, immersing myself in it. Long walks in the woods. Old trees that have weathered many storms, or fresh new growth and flowers. You know seeds from flowers have been found in ancient graves from thousands of years ago. Grief rituals exist because people keep what seems to help at those times. Beautiful music is another reminder of goodness and peace. I don't know if you have already unburdened yourself of the story by talking to a friend, but this is a good way to let it go and to receive nurterance for the hurt done. Keeping secrets is very isolating. Confronting and "dealing with the problem" may come later, you will feel more able and stronger to do so when you simply feel better. All of this solves nothing. Of course evil continues and likely will for some time. When sadness returns, just recognize that mourning is part of the healing as well. Much love to you, Valerie. Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 , v <amused@p...> wrote: what about when one feels that a great evil had been perpetrated upon one's body - inside and out - and wants to get rid of the filthy debased feeling which he/she is left with? Is it a trick of the mind, or does it take rituals from priests with altars with fire to cleanse away the evil - to purify? or is it so simple - get in the shower all alone and *poof* wash it away - it's gone? that hasn't worked for me so far and I wondered how other people exorcised evil when & if it became a problem? .....Dear Valerie, In the circumstance of this open space, perhaps it might be useful to examine some of the presumptions and preconceptions packed into statements like "great evil had been perpetrated upon one's body", and "filthy debased feeling". You are speaking about something personal, yes? Something has happened which has disturbed you, perhaps. Something which you feel has violated you at a profound level, and which you have not been able to resolve with mind. A wound is being carried in the heart, and you already suspect that the conventional methods and rituals don't really touch that. There is great courage required in this process. Those who imagine otherwise are just fooling themselves. How can we bear the unbearable? "We" can't. If we proceed with the inquiry, we arrive at a place, the same "gate" that all brave hearts must arrive at, where our utter powerlessness to control outcomes is acknowledged, where our true ignorance in the face of the Mystery is recognized, where all that we believed we were is demolished like the bottom card pulled out from a house of cards, and to just stand there, in that fire, and be reduced to ash. And then, gracefully, there may be something like an acceptance that dawns, and there is really no word for this peace, but since we are in the medium of words here, Peace seems like a good descriptor. "Filthy debased feelings" have no place to land in this place. They may arise, but there is no way they can survive in this fire. Ideas of ownership of any body upon which "evil" can be perpetrated dissolve in the recognition that we are not the somebody in that story -- we are indeed no-body, No Body, and what we appear to be is being Lived by a Mystery beyond comprehension. Ideas of ownership are based upon a core assumption of "I", and that assumption is undermined in the Remembrance of our True Nature, which is unspeakable vastness, and this Vastness, which has no qualities in Itself, expresses Itself in the world of form as Love, and all that has yet to re-cognize itself as that Love can be submitted to the Light of this Love -- not by "us" -- but by That Which is living us, even now. We are already that for which we have been looking. The search for the True Self ceases when it is realized that one has never been anything other than the True Self. Liberation is from all fixed notions of self-hood, the discarding of the pretense of separateness and specialness, the leaving behind of past, present and future, of all that is entailed with imagining oneself to be a known entity in a made up world. There is nothing to do to wake up out of a dream that never was. There is just the awakening out of the dream of 'me', out of all stories that are centered around this 'me'. Who is it that believes in a self and other, in good and evil, in bondage and freedom, in dreams and awakening? If one abandons all stories about oneself, others, the world, and even enlightenment, what is left? In our meeting here, we can investigate, inquire into, and discover what we really Are, prior to all notions of identity. All that one imagines is true about oneself is burned in the fire of That which is really True. Beyond the notions of gradual and sudden awakening to freedom, we already ARE Free, pure Awareness. This realization is not dependent on external circumstances, or on internal states of consciousness, on any kind of purification or ritual practices. What IS doesn't come and go, and is not given or taken. There are no methods or modalities to realize This, and no dogmas or authority figures to use as an excuse to keep the immediate recognition of our True Nature at a distance. Can you allow this Freedom, which Is who you Are, to simply be the case, regardless of any circumstances which may have arisen in this life that seem to argue against such acceptance? Can you lovingly forgive, and allow these wounds to be healed by the Love that you Are, in your Child Heart? Valerie, you are so completely and infinitely loved, and as you awaken to this Love, all ideas of good and evil will be Outshone by a Beauty that will simply take your breath away and leave you speechless. Let this in. It so wants to embrace you, and that is why It is here, right here, right now. LoveAlways, b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Hi Valerie -- Behind the various versions of the golden rule is this ... if you hurt another it is your self that you hurt. And ... if there is no movement that goes out that is not also toward oneself, then what is really "out"? ... And ... if there is no action "out" that doesn't affect "in," then is there really an outside of you? And ... if no outside of you, where you are not? And then ... what self is it that acts toward another? The self that acts toward another out there is not true, it is illusory fragmentation, as is the image of another. It is this illusory self that is involved in imaginings that I can self-discipline myself so as to get rid of a bad thought and have a good thought. If you *know* the all-encompassing "who" you are, then you won't be deceived, and won't need to discipline yourself by rules taken in from "outside" ... All flows from who you are, as it is ... The all-encompassing you includes all possibilities, and labelling them "good" and "bad" doesn't change the reality that you are, and all that you include. Namaste and love, Dan > in lieu of answering every -as you say- melodic as well as > compassionate point - I just want to say that I agree that evil is in > many schools of thought - such as "The Golden Rule" and Wiccan to speak > of - means if you hurt yourself or others. Simplistic but effective > within so many diverse and chaotic changes - mind over matter becomes > reality so it's best to culture self discipline at the very basis of our > beings and be aware lest bad thoughts become reality. > Thankyou for this! > valerie :-) > > dan330033 wrote: > > > Hey Jody -- > > > > You are singing the song called "Love's Wisdom" ... > > > > Loud and clear! > > > > Beautiful notes, wonderful tune. > > > > Isn't he melodic as well as compassionate, Valerie? > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > , v <amused@p...> wrote: > > > > okay now - let's see if I can piece this together after a > > weekend of > > > > fancy talk and high falutin' concepts read over and over- - - > > > > > > > > Everyone is born with a higher Self and the trick is to > > realize it. > > > > > > Not quite. Everyone *is* the Self and the trick is to see > > > ourselves as It. > > > > > > > These higher Selfs are how we are all related on a higher plane, > > and > > > > where we go when we meditate. > > > > > > There is only one Self. When we meditate we are trying to > > > clear the mind, which may or may not lead to knowing ourselves > > > as the Self. > > > > > > > But we also create the psychological self for getting by in a > > > > material world - aka "ego" - and don it like armor for day to day > > > > activities. > > > > > > The "ego" is a creation of our being alive. We don't create > > > it, it is created by the mind's reactions to our life's > > > circumstances. > > > > > > > Depending upon our awareness of our Self we could be > > > > operating with our higher Self resonating through the > > psychological > > > > self, or else maybe be totally obtuse from each other. > > > > > > The Self does not operate. It provides the foundation of > > > being, but is itself uninvolved in life. > > > > > > The "amount" of Self never changes. It is the same in all > > > at all times, regardless of where a person's awareness is at. > > > > > > > The further along > > > > the spiritual path we go, the more we groom our higher Self and > > the > > > > easier it is to access it in a world that is chaotic at best. > > > > > > The further along we go, the further along we've gone. It > > > doesn't necessarily have anything to do with our being the Self. > > > > > > As far as the Self is concerned, there is nowhere to go. We > > > are always the Self in every moment. It's a simple matter of > > > seeing it directly. Whether we see it or not, we always are > > > it in each moment. > > > > > > > My question is about the forces of good and evil - these exist > > on the > > > > levels of the psychological self to be hopefully nurtured or > > overcome at > > > > that point; am I right? > > > > > > Good and evil are labels describing human behavior. They exist > > > in the psychologies of man. > > > > > > > I mean - one doesn't hear about spiritual > > > > masters teaching the ways of the dark path (although Osho when he > > was > > > > pretending to be Rajneesh came pretty dang close...). It is only > > people > > > > either blind to spiritual matters who become evil, or who are > > imbalanced > > > > by greed or lust or power and other earthly vanities. If those > > people > > > > being led astray by evil thoughts and activities were meditating > > on the > > > > Light or on their higher Self, there would be no room for evil. > > When we > > > > ourselves are overwrought by darkness we meditate on the Light and > > > > > > elevated thoughts and our True Nature and uplift our mood, not > > succumb > > > > to evil - such as child killing pedophiles, or blood thirsty war > > > > mongers. How do we account for them - for whom violence and evil > > is a > > > > way of life? > > > > > > They've learned evil as a life strategy. It's worked for > > > them in their lives. > > > > > > > How do we get them to reflect on their Self and meditate > > > > when they are stuck in survival mode? Is it really evil if they > > are > > > > ignorant of how to change? > > > > What IS evil? > > > > best regards, > > > > valerie > > > > > > Evil is hurting yourself or another. You can't make anyone > > > change if they don't want to. Evil is a condition of being in > > > the world and if you don't like it then it's best to stay out > > > of its way. > > <snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 I agree with Glo 100%. I would agree more, but technically 100% is all that I am allowed. The fact that we must shift from the abstract to the authentic nature of experience is profound proof that individual experience is of great importance. The role of healers in society, whether Shamanistic Tribal society or modern western society is a reflection of the need that real people have for both cleansing, soothing, and for contact that is good, healthy and uplifting. We need such spiritual cleansing, and if one has never suffered real suffering or lost a loved one (particularly to violence or tragic disease) then perhaps it is easier for them to pronounce the universe a place of "perfection and bliss" that we just somehow fail to appreciate. It may not be of great comfort to remind that with time, things are not forgotten, but that pain does diminish. Also, as we bond with others who are kind, loving, good, generous and thoughtful, our faith in both others and ourselves is restored. We never recapture the state of "innocence" that we may have once enjoyed. We are always more wary, more cautious. I think that is to be expected. But when in doubt, reflect on the love and kindness that others have given you...meditate on the beauty that exists in the world. To focus on Evil is to give it undue power over your life and to trap you forever in the mental torment of self doubt and suffering. Can we forgive our trespassers? That is the admonishment of Jesus. I think forgiveness promotes our own recovery. But forgiveness does not absolve the wrong doer or violent person. They must face their own judgement...and those who perpetrate such deeds are traveling a road of great suffering for themselves both in this life and beyond. Please accept our best thoughts and deepest love for your well being, good health and spiritual healing. Our hearts are not with you, they are you... Blessings, Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Hi Valerie, What you are describing is the need for a process of healing from abuse. Such isn't likely to come about from a "quick fix," something that makes everything "bad," the memories, the results of what happened, the negative self-perceptions -- just go away. Of course, there is the wish that something could intervene to make all this bad feeling just go away. In a situation where difficult feelings and memories persist, and may be taken out against oneself, counseling with someone who intuitively feels like a good "fit" with the person may help. Someone who is compassionate, listens with empathy, knows how to work with the aftermath of abuse, and who can assist with self- healing and releasing negative self-evaluation. Exorcism, showers, and meditation, walks in the wood may reach their limits here: I can't get rid of me, I can't eliminate my experience from who I am. Honestly coming to terms with oneself, one's experiencing, one's self-judgments may be important. If other things aren't working, perhaps a counselor can help with this, or someone else who is a compassionate listener. A healing dialogue often needs to be part of recovery from abuse. Peace, Dan > what about when one feels that a great evil had been perpetrated upon > one's body - inside and out - and wants to get rid of the filthy > debased feeling which > he/she is left with? Is it a trick of the mind, or does it take rituals > from priests with altars > with fire to cleanse away the evil - to purify? > or is it so simple - get in the shower all alone and *poof* wash it away > - it's gone? > that hasn't worked for me so far and I wondered how other people > exorcised evil when & > if it became a problem? > valerie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 > > I look back at the thing and all I hear is "CLANK, CLANK." > It's rather robotic to me. It gives me yet another pause > in which to consider my responses in these discussions. > > > > ..."If you have times that you don't ache with love, > you shouldn't be here with us." > > ~Rumi Ah -- that fits quite well, I'd say :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > Hi Jody -- > > > I don't know where you're getting all that from, Dan. > > > > I look back at the thing and all I hear is "CLANK, CLANK." > > I got it as immediate response, as "clarity" > which sounded sweet, an experience of > resonance ... > > Hmmmm... > > > It's rather robotic to me. > > Did I hear clarity where there was none? > > Or was it robotic clarity that clanked, > and yet sounded musical from afar? > > > It gives me yet another pause > > in which to consider my responses in these discussions. > > Okay. > > Something I wonder about here: is this evaluative review > of what you said skewed because "you" said > these words? > > Would you evaluate the same way if no "you" > were involved in the speaking? > > Does a "you" come into play when reviewing > the past to evaluate, > the "you" seemingly there with the opinion, > providing the "perspective about the past" ... > > Namaste, > Dan The "me" came into play reading your response when I threw my own meaning on top of yours. In response to the reading of my meaning I reevaluated my post, and through the lens of the meaning that I projected I felt the post was lacking in some ways. The beauty of these lists for me is that this "me" is brought into relief by the light of other's comments, thereby making "me" apparent to me. Thank you. --jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Dear Robert, Gloria, Dan, Shawn, Jody, Everybody... Having admitted such a personal secret evil upon my person - it should be known that life is of such a character and speed that just getting away from the perpetrator of the evil and continuuing on with one's own life is usually enough. Sure it's sad, *sniff*, but who has time to grieve in such cases? In this case forces have conspired where I am waiting for my car to be fixxed, so I am home all day, and my daughter is of the age where I recently suspected her of being molested, and I was compelled to think back on the days when it was occurring. These are not bad things - but I had just *stuffed* those memories - donned them with my psycho armor for my Self to Shine thru; now it's leaking all over! I consider it a luxury to take the time to consider the past - I haven't really found many therapists or books to be of much use - just life and time as it occurs, and situations like this. thanks from my heart, :-) valerie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 > The "me" came into play reading your response > when I threw my own meaning on top of yours. > > In response to the reading of my meaning I > reevaluated my post, and through the lens of > the meaning that I projected I felt the post > was lacking in some ways. > > The beauty of these lists for me is that > this "me" is brought into relief by the light > of other's comments, thereby making "me" > apparent to me. > > Thank you. > > --jody. Yes. This could be called "inquiry" or might be called "effortless insight" ... Looking into "what is" as it takes place ... not assuming ahead of time what it will be ... not jumping to conclusions like "there is no me" ... Just looking ... Namaste, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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